All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - Part 85

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[Micromind]

The shaky cam and zoom in/out worked for me...

The non-linear structure was fine, the flashbacks were just far far far too short.

I don't want to see it all again in MOS 2.

 

[Deserana]

You probably wont get a non-linear structure but likely the shaky cam and zoom ins.

 

[Marvin]

They coulda added another $10M at least if they opened in Australia this weekend too.

Pretty much why it's always so fickle to buy into Marvels early WW numbers. There is no bar for measure, one film opens up everywhere and earlier the other film has domestic and 3 countries and yet all you here is the former example "already has" so and so.

I personally only look at WW when it starts to get really high.

 

[BlueLantern]

On the second viewing I didn't have too much of an issue with the non-linear structure though I'd have favoured a more Batman Begins style format to the flashbacks but I get where they were coming from with the method utilized.

As far as I recall, the decision to go handheld was Snyder's and not Mokri's. That's evident in how much fresher the Wolverine's looking.

But yeah, the pacing was whacky. It takes a huge ****ing dip half way through the second act. It really struggles to keep up because it's followed straight off the bat by explosions-buildings falling-punches-explosions-buildings falling-explosions.

It's no point having a scapegoat for such a production. If such things are considered a quote-unquote collaborative effort, you'd think the decisions made were either unanimous or supported by the majority. They're all responsible whether good or bad.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I would understand the complaints about the shaky-cam and zoom-ins if all the shots weren't properly framed or you couldn't make out what was going on. Outside of Jor-El's fight with the guards, I had not one trouble seeing what was happening.

 

[Matt]

I have a thought on the film, I'm not sure it is a problem, just a thought (so calm down fanboys, its not really a criticism, just me thinking aloud). I feel like Snyder did this with the film:



In other words, how do you escalate? The reason that the Transformers movies got progressively worse is because Bay showed everything that there is to show in the first movie. There was no way to escalate and a sequel must escalate to feel fresh and exciting and to make the audience feel like it was worth coming back to. I'm not sure how MOS2 can escalate. Metropolis was more or less destroyed. The action and carnage was way over the top. Snyder held nothing back. That could be problematic. However, a smaller story (like Metallo and Luthor) would feel thoroughly underwhelming after Zod. I almost feel like Snyder made a huge mistake in using Zod as the origin villain, who basically ravaged the world, because there is no way to really up the ante at this point.

 

[Micromind]

But they could at least try to improve in future by taking into account what critics and fans say.

 

[Marvin]

In other words, how do you escalate? The reason that the Transformers movies got progressively worse is because Bay showed everything that there is to show in the first movie. There was no way to escalate and a sequel must escalate to feel fresh and exciting and to make the audience feel like it was worth coming back to. I'm not sure how MOS2 can escalate. Metropolis was more or less destroyed. The action and carnage was way over the top. Snyder held nothing back. That could be problematic. However, a smaller story (like Metallo and Luthor) would feel thoroughly underwhelming after Zod. I almost feel like Snyder made a huge mistake in using Zod as the origin villain, who basically ravaged the world, because there is no way to really up the ante at this point.

I suppose the marvel approach is a simple example of the opposite. How and Thor and Cap not better at this point.

Nolan's always said put everything you can into each film...
but he wasn't decision making here so there's that.

 

[snpklsdmbldr]

I really love the last few minutes of the movies, it's one of the best IMO.

 

[Micromind]

Smaller story is the way to move forward, they could show some small time Earth based villains like Metallo in it, develop the characters in Metropolis, show how citizens of Metropolis react towards Superman.


Also, Show Superman tackle some problems on a Global scale, for example rescuing people from a Volcano in Africa, saving people from a sinking ship in Indian Ocean.

 

[SpideyVille]

I have a thought on the film, I'm not sure it is a problem, just a thought (so calm down fanboys, its not really a criticism, just me thinking aloud). I feel like Snyder did this with the film:



In other words, how do you escalate? The reason that the Transformers movies got progressively worse is because Bay showed everything that there is to show in the first movie. There was no way to escalate and a sequel must escalate to feel fresh and exciting and to make the audience feel like it was worth coming back to. I'm not sure how MOS2 can escalate. Metropolis was more or less destroyed. The action and carnage was way over the top. Snyder held nothing back. That could be problematic. However, a smaller story (like Metallo and Luthor) would feel thoroughly underwhelming after Zod. I almost feel like Snyder made a huge mistake in using Zod as the origin villain, who basically ravaged the world, because there is no way to really up the ante at this point.

Yeah, my brother was saying that he hopes they use Doomsday soon, but I thought it was just not very practical since it would basically be a repeat of what happened here, only that Superman would be "dead" at some point.

But I think all of the excessive chaos would be a great entry point for Luthor to show up and point to it as a reason why Superman cannot be trusted. I think if they address the issue in a sequel, then it will make more sense why Superman destroyed a big part of the city during his fights. They really need to show the aftermath and consequences of his action, otherwise it will make this movie look worse, especially since they followed Zod's death with a comical scene that would have worked with a better transition in between.

 

[BlueLantern]

Putting every thing you can into a film is one thing but not appropriately managing the development of a character is another.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

On the second viewing I didn't have too much of an issue with the non-linear structure though I'd have favoured a more Batman Begins style format to the flashbacks but I get where they were coming from with the method utilized.

As far as I recall, the decision to go handheld was Snyder's and not Mokri's. That's evident in how much fresher the Wolverine's looking.

But yeah, the pacing was whacky. It takes a huge ****ing dip half way through the second act. It really struggles to keep up because it's followed straight off the bat by explosions-buildings falling-punches-explosions-buildings falling-explosions.

It's no point having a scapegoat for such a production. If such things are considered a quote-unquote collaborative effort, you'd think the decisions made were either unanimous or supported by the majority. They're all responsible whether good or bad.

Completely inaccurate.

I have a thought on the film, I'm not sure it is a problem, just a thought (so calm down fanboys, its not really a criticism, just me thinking aloud). I feel like Snyder did this with the film:



In other words, how do you escalate? The reason that the Transformers movies got progressively worse is because Bay showed everything that there is to show in the first movie. There was no way to escalate and a sequel must escalate to feel fresh and exciting and to make the audience feel like it was worth coming back to. I'm not sure how MOS2 can escalate. Metropolis was more or less destroyed. The action and carnage was way over the top. Snyder held nothing back. That could be problematic. However, a smaller story (like Metallo and Luthor) would feel thoroughly underwhelming after Zod. I almost feel like Snyder made a huge mistake in using Zod as the origin villain, who basically ravaged the world, because there is no way to really up the ante at this point.

There are a number of things you could theoretically do. But for me, the best thing would be to have Lex run a smear campaign against Superman. And have him bring together, discover or create the Elite. They could easily taunt Superman for allowing so much destruction to happen and even [BLACKOUT]killing Zod[/BLACKOUT]. Imagine them slaughtering world leaders and terroist because it is quicker, more efficient and saves lives. Plus, they would allow for big action, without being repetitive. Their skill set is large and varied.

A film that focused on the fall out of MoS, along with a substance love story between Clark and Lois would work very well imo. Especially if you could find the right balance of mad scientist and business man.

I can already see one of the final shots of the film. Clark, having found out Lex is responsible for everything, floating outside his window, STAS style.

And then you do World's Finest.

 

[SpideyVille]

I really love the last few minutes of the movies, it's one of the best IMO.

Yeah, I read someone point out how different this ending was to most other CBMs. Usually a movie ends with a final swing or flight with the hero in costume, but this one ends on a more subtle note, yet its still effective.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I really love the last few minutes of the movies, it's one of the best IMO.

The last few minutes of this movie was absolute gold.

 

[Marvin]

With all this talk of killing and excessive destruction. I think it would be criminal not to introduce the elite story line at some point. Especially before you get into the cinematic universe.

 

[king666]

Lex + Metallo for MOS2. That would be dope. Add some more levity, humor and romance. Less action sequences. Make Superman 100% Superman. Forget the emo Superman thing. Voilà, Man of Steel 2!

 

[DChero]

I have a thought on the film, I'm not sure it is a problem, just a thought (so calm down fanboys, its not really a criticism, just me thinking aloud). I feel like Snyder did this with the film:



In other words, how do you escalate? The reason that the Transformers movies got progressively worse is because Bay showed everything that there is to show in the first movie. There was no way to escalate and a sequel must escalate to feel fresh and exciting and to make the audience feel like it was worth coming back to. I'm not sure how MOS2 can escalate. Metropolis was more or less destroyed. The action and carnage was way over the top. Snyder held nothing back. That could be problematic. However, a smaller story (like Metallo and Luthor) would feel thoroughly underwhelming after Zod. I almost feel like Snyder made a huge mistake in using Zod as the origin villain, who basically ravaged the world, because there is no way to really up the ante at this point.

That's a great point. My argument against it would be that this movie may not have done as well without that level of threat though. Even a Justice League movie has a challenge in pushing the envelope.

Maybe Brainiac owning Kandor fits? I never liked the idea of shrinking Kandor, but maybe they were put into the Phantom Zone along with the rest of the Kryptonians from the MoS finale. That would link back to Kal's origin as well and introduce a more sever threat. This time I hope that they tear up Philadelphia.

 

[souperman]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH


You know I'm getting sick of the Superman doesn't kill crap, have we ever seen Superman in that moment where he had no choice? Oh yeah when he freaking killed Doomsday but because he died he's allowed a pass on that one. Reading crap like that article above just bugs me.



Seriously, dude? Get a better example. As many have pointed out, Doomsday is a different situation because he is not even a sentient being - just a mindless animal if anything. However, even if that weren't true, The Death of Superman is a high criticized story. Most of the people complaining about the killing in Man of Steel tend to equally criticize that things like the killing of the pocket universe Kryptonians and the killing of Doomsday and similar stories as equally bad, out of character moments. So your argument has no basis.


Regarding Superman killing in general:

Superman 1 - Superman chooses to "allow" the California missile to blow up and kill millions so he can save Hackensack New Jersey, due to a promise. HACKENSACK ! ( if Lois had survived, would Superman have gotten so upset to turn the world and time backwards? If so, why doesn't he just do that all the time? Let all the bad happen and then go back and erase it! Boring.)
Superman II: He throws a now defenseless (once Kryptonian now Human) Zod into an abyss, to his death. Superman allows Non to fall to his death, and even lets Lois knock Ursa into the abyss to her death. Lois is a killer too!

Why was this OK? Lighter mood, funny, less serious take on Superman?

Superman 3-4....killed us all t:

 

[BlueLantern]

Completely inaccurate.

You're hilarious. You make an absolute statement and then provide no evidence to support it.

The film began to slow down when Zod reveals himself and continued at such a pace until Zod then arrived on Earth to search for the codex. Following that moment it was explosion after explosion starting with Zod vs Clark and Faora/Nam Ek vs Clark.

Even when Clark was having a quiet moment with his mother, the World Engine's already been deployed and Metropolis has the Black Zero over it. Shortly after that when they're explaining the plan to the Army, the Black Zero's busy blowing **** up and the third act kicks in with more explosions.

As I've said, it was disaster porn once things start going boom.

 

[DChero]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH


You know I'm getting sick of the Superman doesn't kill crap, have we ever seen Superman in that moment where he had no choice? Oh yeah when he freaking killed Doomsday but because he died he's allowed a pass on that one. Reading crap like that article above just bugs me.



Seriously, dude? Get a better example. As many have pointed out, Doomsday is a different situation because he is not even a sentient being - just a mindless animal if anything. However, even if that weren't true, The Death of Superman is a high criticized story. Most of the people complaining about the killing in Man of Steel tend to equally criticize that things like the killing of the pocket universe Kryptonians and the killing of Doomsday and similar stories as equally bad, out of character moments. So your argument has no basis.


Regarding Superman killing in general:

Superman 1 - Superman chooses to "allow" the California missile to blow up and kill millions so he can save Hackensack New Jersey, due to a promise. HACKENSACK ! ( if Lois had survived, would Superman have gotten so upset to turn the world and time backwards? If so, why doesn't he just do that all the time? Let all the bad happen and then go back and erase it! Boring.)
Superman II: He throws a now defenseless (once Kryptonian now Human) Zod into an abyss, to his death. Superman allows Non to fall to his death, and even lets Lois knock Ursa into the abyss to her death. Lois is a killer too!

Why was this OK? Lighter mood, funny, less serious take on Superman?

Superman 3-4-5....killed us all t:

I owe you a beer.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's a great point. My argument against it would be that this movie may not have done as well without that level of threat though. Even a Justice League movie has a challenge in pushing the envelope.

Maybe Brainiac owning Kandor fits? I never liked the idea of shrinking Kandor, but maybe they were put into the Phantom Zone along with the rest of the Kryptonians from the MoS finale. That would link back to Kal's origin as well and introduce a more sever threat. This time I hope that they tear up Philadelphia.

A Justice League movie has no problem if Darksied shows up. The guy can one man the entire league.

 

[Matt]

Completely inaccurate.


There are a number of things you could theoretically do. But for me, the best thing would be to have Lex run a smear campaign against Superman. And have him bring together, discover or create the Elite. They could easily taunt Superman for allowing so much destruction to happen and even [BLACKOUT]killing Zod[/BLACKOUT]. Imagine them slaughtering world leaders and terroist because it is quicker, more efficient and saves lives. Plus, they would allow for big action, without being repetitive. Their skill set is large and varied.

A film that focused on the fall out of MoS, along with a substance love story between Clark and Lois would work very well imo. Especially if you could find the right balance of mad scientist and business man.

I can already see one of the final shots of the film. Clark, having found out Lex is responsible for everything, floating outside his window, STAS style.

And then you do World's Finest.

I'd argue that the Superman/Lois romance is yet another example of Snyder blowing his load too early. You don't even have the will they/won't they romantic tension. This movie literally put all the cards on the table. I just can't shake the feeling that we are heading toward Spider-Man 3 territory.