All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - Part 85

[DarthSkywalker]

I wonder if Lex losses someone he loves during the events in "Man of Steel" and blames Superman. After all Superman led Zod there

The only person Lex loves is himself.

 

[souperman]

should I take it back?

 

[roach]

yes.

based on how Superman reacted to killing Zod, it's clear that it anguished him and he DOES NOT like killing.

this could be used to establish his no killing stance. He did it once and vows to never do it again.

also, they could use all the destruction and have Superman realize just how powerful and destructive he can be.

so, in the future, he will be much more mindful of his action and will take greater precautions in future battles to minimize damage and risk.

and, of course, all of this can play into Lex's motivation and agenda.

he can point to the destruction and mayhem, the loss of innocent life, and the killing of Zod as ample evidence of why we should be weary of Superman and not embrace this alien as our savior and hero.

and that lends legitimacy to Lex's motivations, because there is truth to it. and that always makes Lex a more interesting villain.

IMO this scene mirrored the Bruce with a gun scene in BB. He throws it away and you know he is telling himself he'll never use a gun again....
....after killing and crying and all that you can bet he is telling himself he'll never take another life again.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Maybe this act, strengthens his resolve about the no kill rule? He now has done something he hated to do but was forced to. He has just become Superman. Maybe now he defines what kind of hero he will be?

Maybe this was a more powerful way to express this idea. A casual movie goer, not knowing anything about Superman, would not know his inner character so the angst and pain is evident now and makes more sense.?

That'd be great.

But that's not something that was in the film. Just something to hope might be in the future.

As it stands, we don't have that.

 

[BlueLantern]

No, you were completely inaccurate. You are saying the the third act is all action, that nothing else occurred other then action and explosions. Considering you acknowledge that isn't true proves my statement correct.

"There is no fruit in the bowl."

There is an orange the bowl.

Thus the statement is false. Your reasoning is as good as your quoting ability.

And just because you deem something cheesy, does not make it any less a character moment. Plenty found all those scene to be compelling.

Also, since when can't a scene deliver information or action while involving character? In fact, that is the proper way of doing it. Unless Scorsese and Spielberg have been doing it wrong for over 40 years now.

Okay, I'll rephrase since we're practicing pedantry here.

In my opinion, a large proportion of the third act was relegated to action scenes with little substance whilst the supposed character driven moments were created to keep the plot moving along and enable further action sequences to occur.

Let's not compare Scorsese and Spielberg to Snyder. That's a can of worms that you can open the day the latter actually makes films that stand up in quality to the former. But he hasn't. And even you should be able to see that.

Putting a smiley at the end doesn't make your statement any more valid but instead devalues it as it comes across as more condescending than anything else. Ditto for you attacking my so called quoting ability. You're not helping yourself.

The point you're missing in your rampage through these threads is that films are down to interpretation. My interpretation of the film is what I've explained and yours is yours. I haven't said you don't deserve to have your opinion, but you've made posts specifically attacking mine.

Does that make sense or do you want to continue going around in circles?

 

[souperman]

I wonder if Lex losses someone he loves during the events in "Man of Steel" and blames Superman. After all Superman led Zod there

...hey, that's a good thought.

Maybe they can have Lex's beloved wife mortally wounded by the attack, leaving her in a state of coma, alive in a tube full of liquid and Lex tries to get the technology from Superman's to save her. Superman say's his father told him he can't interfere with the Earths natural evolution so Lex get's pissed and swears vengeance.!

It could look like this!

 

[X Knight]

I wonder if Lex losses someone he loves during the events in "Man of Steel" and blames Superman. After all Superman led Zod there

no. that would turn Lex's motivation into nothing more than clichéd revenge.

Lex only loves himself - and power and control.

the only thing Lex should be worried about losing is the "love" of the people of Metropolis to Superman.

 

[souperman]

...or, Lex finds out that Kryptonan technology can cure baldness and Superman refuses to supply the cure so....

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Okay, I'll rephrase since we're practicing pedantry here.

A large proportion of the third act was relegated to action scenes with little substance whilst the supposed character driven moments were created to keep the plot moving along and enable further action sequences to occur.

Let's not compare Scorsese and Spielberg to Snyder. That's a can of worms that you can open the day the latter actually makes films that stand up in quality to the former. Putting a smiley at the end doesn't make your statement any more valid but instead devalues it as it comes across as more condescending than justified.

The point you're missing in your rampage through these threads is that films are down to interpretation. My interpretation of the film is what I've explained and yours is yours.

I haven't said you don't deserve to have your opinion, but you've made posts specifically attacking mine so I took the time to explain why I felt what I felt.

Does that make sense or do you want to continue going around in circles?

There is opinion, and then there is your need to insult this film and its creators directly. You don't like a scene, hell half the film? Fine. But that isn't what you are doing. You have gone past discussion. You aren't discussing, you are bashing.

You just had to belittle Snyder again, when it wasn't a question of his quality, but the question on whether plot and character can be delivered at once. You are hanging around to crap on the film and to inform others why it is bad.

There are more then a few here who didn't like the film. They aren't posting like that.

 

[redhawk23]

Caught the film Friday night but haven't been able to get online until now.

I really enjoyed the movie. I thought all of the elements, from the story to the acting, to the action to the effects and designs were great.

Cavill might have been a little understated in the role for some people's tastes, but when he got a chance to really interact with other people, I thought he was charismatic as all get out. It was really weird, while he doesn't look that much like Reeves in general, whenever he smiled it was uncanny!

I must say I was really swept up in the Krypton scenes, they were all so wonderfully pulpy.

I thought the film had a pretty good balance of story and action scenes, and all of the action felt like it was driven by the story rather than just being a series of inserted set pieces. While the action was crazy destructive at the end, I didn't think it went on too long or anything. Really it was quite comparable to the climax of Chronicle, of all things, the only other film I think of that had a city wide battle between two almost-immortals.

Zod's scheme to terraform the planet was interesting because it was him just following through not only on the philosophy that had been drilled into him, but the very purpose for which he had been bred. It created a villain who while not sympathetic, had understandable motives.

Pa Kent's characterization still somewhat rubbed me the wrong way, but ultimately, he still proved to be deeply principled, and his cautions were not unjustified.

 

[roach]

That'd be great.

But that's not something that was in the film. Just something to hope might be in the future.

As it stands, we don't have that.

But we see him affected by it....he screams and cries....he won't be taking any more lives. We don't need to hear him say he won't kill again... His actions say it.
Had he quipped and just walked off I probably would be upset.
Also he wasn't the Superman we know and love til the end of the movie.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But we see him affected by it....he screams and cries....he won't be taking any more lives. We don't need to hear him say he won't kill again... His actions say it.
Had he quipped and just walked off I probably would be upset.
Also he wasn't the Superman we know and love til the end of the movie.

Never say never. Bring on the Elite.

 

[redhawk23]

The action scenes in this film were quite well done, and again, I feel like all of the fight scenes actually had good reason to exist, rather than just a checklist of preplanned set pieces thinly linked together.

Faora's fighting in particular was unlike anything I've seen on film before. The closest thing I can compare it to is something like Mortal Kombat XI, the speed at which she moved, the way she would slide against the ground when she punched, and when she grabbed superman, the camera movements closely resembled video game grappling (I almost expected a "pound X repeatedly" icon to show up) That is not an insult. People tend to use "video-game-like" as a perjorative. In this case I don't mean graphically. Instead I just mean that they presented lighting fast and super human attacks clearly and excitingly. Videogames have developed a very specific visual language for showing such things, and Snyder adopts such visual cues to the best possible effect.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

But we see him affected by it....he screams and cries....he won't be taking any more lives. We don't need to hear him say he won't kill again... His actions say it.
Had he quipped and just walked off I probably would be upset.
Also he wasn't the Superman we know and love til the end of the movie.

I don't think feeling bad about something = vowing never to do it again.

 

[redhawk23]

Has anyone mentioned how god-awful the product placement film was? It was really obtrusive at times. I don't mind when things like cell phone brands are visible, but staging dramatic moments in front of Sears signs and lingering after Supes takes off, or repeatedly cutting to an IHOP just kind of took me out of the film.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The action scenes in this film were quite well done, and again, I feel like all of the fight scenes actually had good reason to exist, rather than just a checklist of preplanned set pieces thinly linked together.

Faora's fighting in particular was unlike anything I've seen on film before. The closest thing I can compare it to is something like Mortal Kombat XI, the speed at which she moved, the way she would slide against the ground when she punched, and when she grabbed superman, the camera movements closely resembled video game grappling (I almost expected a "pound X repeatedly" icon to show up) That is not an insult. People tend to use "video-game-like" as a perjorative. In this case I don't mean graphically. Instead I just mean that they presented lighting fast and super human attacks clearly and excitingly. Videogames have developed a very specific visual language for showing such things, and Snyder adopts such visual cues to the best possible effect.

Faora's style was very anime based. Agree on its awesomness.

As I have mentioned before, it felt like all four the major Kryptonian combatants all truly had their own style in combat, and thus made each fight unique.

 

[Tzigone]

no. that would turn Lex's motivation into nothing more than clichéd revenge.

Lex only loves himself - and power and control.

the only thing Lex should be worried about losing is the "love" of the people of Metropolis to Superman.

I agree completely. I want to keep Lex that way. Maybe he could obtain Zod's body, if he's trying to attain superpowers himself? Would he learn about the codex in Superman's blood and want that (might work better with more sciency Lex)? Not sure. I need a reason for him to go up against Supes, but I want it to be mercenary, about his own gain. Just not sure what he should be trying to gain, or how Supes is in the way of that.

 

[Deserana]

Absolutely. I'd love for the next movie to pick up just a couple weeks after this one ended. On the one side, you have Lois' editorials in the Daily Planet endorsing Superman. On the other you have someone (Luthor?) raising sentiment against him. Not sure if I'd have the government play in. You could either have villain raising negative sentiment (framing Supes for something?) or just the general populous. In MOS, he was intentionally given a far murkier into. He wasn't established before the action, no one knows who he is - to the public, he's an alien, not "Superman". Zod wouldn't have come to Earth if not for him, so you can see why people wouldn't like him. And while the military knows that Superman fought Zod to save the planet, the general population may just see it as two aliens fighting each other, not knowing much about the attempted terraforming. I'm sure Lois will try to clear thing up, but she might not universally trusted. And how much will the government cofirm/deny her story? I'd think the movie would with Superman's acceptance and his birth as the public hero we're familiarly with him as.

So many things I want to follow up on there. I'll be very, very disappointed if they skip all that.

As will I.

I like the idea that you have Lois endorsing Superman and you have Lex trying to get people against him. I think it would be a good plot point to have Lex figure out that Lois and Superman are in some way romantically linked therefore making all her endorsement redundant.

I think Lex needs to be more a side character in MoS2 rather than a full on villain. Someone who is pulling the strings and gradually gets the big important people of Metropolis on his side, not necessarily all good guys either. Then you have someone like Brainiac come in and cause more problems therefore just fueling Lex's arguments. But avoid the now cliched the big villain (Brainiac) is actually working for someone else (Lex) and isn't the main bad guy at all.

Again, this is the reason I love the idea of the Elite? Do you know the characters and their story? Because they focus on this very subject.

Nope, I'm gonna go read up on them now. MoS was literally my introduction into pretty much everything Superman. Superman Returns didn't help with whatever love I had for the character at the time.

 

[redhawk23]

I don't think feeling bad about something = vowing never to do it again.

Since when does Superman have the whole Batman vow anyways? I certainly don't see Supes killing many humans in the future, but it was absolutely made clear that Zod would stop at nothing short of death. It was made entirely clear in that moment by Zod's own words and actions.

 

[roach]

Never say never. Bring on the Elite.

We all know Superman has a no kill rule but where did it come from? And why? Is there an actual reason other than the comics code?
I believe what we saw was the cinematic reason to why he won't kill.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As will I.

I like the idea that you have Lois endorsing Superman and you have Lex trying to get people against him. I think it would be a good plot point to have Lex figure out that Lois and Superman are in some way romantically linked therefore making all her endorsement redundant.

I think Lex needs to be more a side character in MoS2 rather than a full on villain. Someone who is pulling the strings and gradually gets the big important people of Metropolis on his side, not necessarily all good guys either. Then you have someone like Brainiac come in and cause more problems therefore just fueling Lex's arguments. But avoid the now cliched the big villain (Brainiac) is actually working for someone else (Lex) and isn't the main bad guy at all.



Nope, I'm gonna go read up on them now. MoS was literally my introduction into pretty much everything Superman. Superman Returns didn't help with whatever love I had for the character at the time.

You should watch the Superman vs. the Elite animated film. A great take on the original classic story.

 

[BlueLantern]

There is opinion, and then there is your need to insult this film and its creators directly. You don't like a scene, hell half the film? Fine. But that isn't what you are doing. You have gone past discussion. You aren't discussing, you are bashing.

You just had to belittle Snyder again, when it wasn't a question of his quality, but the question on whether plot and character can be delivered at once. You are hanging around to crap on the film and to inform others why it is bad.

There are more then a few here who didn't like the film. They aren't posting like that.

It's the quality of a filmmakers that decides their ability to deliver plot and action at once. In my opinion the film did not do that so in turn it's the responsibility of the filmmakers.

Furthermore, who are the filmmakers to you? And more to the point, if I'm unhappy with elements of the film, aren't they the individuals responsible?
Am I supposed to just ignore their input in the film and consider it an act of God?

Hell, wouldn't I be entitled to blaming God at that point for delivering such a weak conclusion to a film that started so damn well? And I've said repeatedly and you've repeatedly ignore, I loved the film to bits...until the explosion fest started with Faora/Nam-Ek vs Clark.

Even discounting that notion, you'll find that I haven't once 'insulted' the filmmakers but criticized the film instead. And I'm entitled to that. More to the point, I've quite explicitly stated it's not just Snyder to blame but the entire team that creatively collaborated on the project.

Ironically enough I'm discussing the merits and demerits of the film with most people quite calmly without resorting to personal attacks. In fact you'll find it's those who love the movie are coming across as more sardonic and lofty about the film than those who don't like it.

The difference is that those who disliked elements of the film have actually been quite clear and reasonably eloquent regarding their opinion. All the while there's a small minority who've got gone 'amagad best cbm eva' and then casually gone on to dismiss the concerns of those who didn't.

And make no mistake, there's plenty folk around here who don't like it. Obviously you've just taken to mocking those who haven't. Well played on being a stark example of hypocrisy in the light of constructive criticism.

 

[roach]

I don't think feeling bad about something = vowing never to do it again.

I don't think he's feeling bad....he screams and cries....he is distraught....the only other time see him act like that is when Pa Kent died....

 

[Lencho01]

So, Superman has to kill in order to know that killing is something he doesn't like?

 

[BlueLantern]

That scene was pretty well done though I'm curious as to how the hell Lois ran that fast from where she was to the train station.

The quick cut to the next scene wasn't great though since it didn't explore any angst that lingered following the climax.