All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - Part 90

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While I wasn't annoyed before...I am now. We were having a nice discussion, and then you decided to be an ass.

Then again, your whole attempt at trying to sound objective with the "Why are you still here" shtick was flimsy at best. You DO want this board to be a lovefest, you just didn't want to be overt about it, a tactic I have seen on the TDKR boards.

My point was that, if people can have dissenting opinions on other versions of Superman, I think its fair for me to share my thoughts of MOS. Really has nothing to do with being bitter over people's anger at Donner or SR, as a vocal minority hate Donner, and, as I have said before, SR and MOS are of the same level of quality.

When you learn not to be condescending, give me a call.
When you realize that Rotten Tomato percentage scores are not xomething that can be given a number by choice, give me a call. How can say something should have a specific RT score, when it is specifically a percentage based on how many critics either liked or didn't like the film?

And it isn't flimsy. The beautiful art of ignoring a question and saying you are just here is to discuss is blatant stonewalling. An attempt to dance around the real reason.

It is amazing how many people can dislike something and then write so much about it. It is the height of fanboy ridiculousness. It is just like Devin.

Now, not everyone is doing that, but certainly some are.

Look here's the problem with the themes of the movie. Because who cares, none of us are judging the film on that. We just want to really enjoy it and be entertained by it. Just like The Avengers and TASM. What is the difference between MOS and those films though? The complete different tone. MOS tries very hard to be this high brow weighty reverent film. Constantly giving us redundant exposition and flashbacks regarding it's themes. If it's going to do this, it better have a pretty good reason. As in make an actual point about these.

Just by having Jonathan Kent or Jor-El preach these themes again and again in dialogue, does not heighten the film in any way. There's no point or anything being made. Even if it was as simple as the end of TDK, 'Sometimes the truth isn't good enough', it would at least be trying to say something. Instead it's all 'you will give them...' and 'one day you will...' which ultimately leads to a big CGI destruction scene and no addressing these focal points.

That's why the themes become a problem. Just the way the film treats itself. The main problem for me though is probably just the haphazardly structured first half, followed by a paint-by-the-numbers second half.
The themes are not all played out in speeches by Clark's father. They are set up by them. They play out through Clark's actions, his decision making.

The final scene is not simply a big CGI destruction scene. It is built on and revolves around Clark's decisions and his confrontation with what toppled the Kryptonians in the first place. They engineered themselves this way. The only one capable of stopping them is the only one of them who can actually make a choice.

The existence of the codex itself speaks to this.
 
Seriously? Let's see, one person was the love of Batman's life, the other person is someone who wanted to commit Genocide. Did Bruce mope much when he left Ra's to his fate? And yeah, maybe it was cut too fast and they didn't get the sense of time having passed across too well, but we can naturally assume it wasn't immediately the next day. No one goes to work the next day, after an alien craft leveled a good portion of the city.

My point had nothing to do with the people who died my point was to do with what the character went through. With Rachel it is Bruce's best friend for life. With Clark he has been through a lot of crap but absolutely nothing compared to the finale of the film. He effectively destroys any chance his home planet had, fights around miles of destruction and dead bodies, reveals himself to the world and kills someone. So it didn't feel right for me that the next scene was quite light hearted.

But back to the moping, as I mentioned before in the Thread, sometimes it's best not to linger on certain moments. Clark screaming and having to be held by Lois spoke volumes. It was effective enough without having to watch him contemplate his decision for 5 more minutes. He was a wreck, having had to kill tore him apart inside. Something like that sticks with you. Just because the next scene doesn't show him sitting alone by himself, doesn't mean he's fine and dandy, and has already forgotten that experience.

I never said I wanted 5 minutes of him in a room, quiet. I just wanted some sort of way to portray time (a few weeks/months) passing making it easier for me personally to believe that he would now have come to deal with the events of MoS. The way it is paced in the film it feels like (I'm aware it may not be the case) he kills Zod, confides with Lois then the next day he's fine again.
 
Hi I'm new to the forums and wanted to discuss the issue of kryptonite in the Man of Steel DC universe. I can't post new threads right now but I'll post one on this topic as soon as I get the chance, because I think it's an important issue for future stories.
I'm worried because Zack Snyder essentially hinted that he would have kryptonite in the next films in some form - I think that would be a big mistake. I loved how this film had no kryptonite. It was a better film for it. Superman doesn't need a magical radioactive mineral to appear vulnerable - that's what makes the story interesting. Superman is an invincible demigod but everything he cares about - Earth, Lois, his mother etc are fragile and mortal. What good is immortality if all your loved ones are dead? That's an intriguing theme, and kryptonite always killed it. It's thematically stupid, boring and unsatisfying to use kryptonite. It's like making batman allergic to tomatoes, then producing a tomato every time you need to defeat batman. It's so stupid! Aaaaaaaagh!
Man of Steel recognised this and the drama came out naturally on screen. Humanity was in real plight and superman had to struggle to save them from a force just as powerful as himself. It was such a big step up from every superman story before it. Every time kryptonite has turned up in a superman story I go crazy with frustration. I hate kryptonite. Its a deus ex machina and it needs to be abandoned completely. There. I hope to start a larger discussion about this later with the futile hope that Goyer will read it lol.
P.S maybe they have a very clever plan for kryptonite but I would be unbelievably skeptical. I hate kryptonite - have Lex Luthor kidnap Lois that would be far more intriguing.
Cheers, coffee sowce boi! Gimme some coffee sowce!
 
The problem with some CBM's isn't that they age but we age. When I was ten and I saw STM on TV, I thought it was the greatest movie in the world. As an adult? Not so much. Yet about six months ago, my eight year old cousin saw the movie for the first time. He loved it. Part of me was envious. I wanted to respond to the movie the way he did or my ten year old self did.

As for top 5 greatest CBM's. It really is subjective. My top 5 may be someone else's bottom 5. That's how it goes.
 
Here's a better question - Which ones do you find very entertaining that are otherwise average films?

Welli tell you a few films I actually find entertaining that get slated; Green Lantern and the two Fantastic Four movies. They're not amazing but I never get bored watching them.

I think there's room for the serious ones and even the ones like those that are just easy on the eye shall we say.
 
The problem with some CBM's isn't that they age but we age. When I was ten and I saw STM on TV, I thought it was the greatest movie in the world. As an adult? Not so much. Yet about six months ago, my eight year old cousin saw the movie for the first time. He loved it. Part of me was envious. I wanted to respond to the movie the way he did or my ten year old self did.

As for top 5 greatest CBM's. It really is subjective. My top 5 may be someone else's bottom 5. That's how it goes.

I just wondered what they were I'm not gonna judge it's just curiosity. But then again your 5 greatest might not be ones you consider to be great films you just might get more enjoyment out of them.

It's like I'd say Iron Man 1 is the best if the MCU solo movies but its not my favourite.
 
I enjoyed the first Iron Man. I didn't have much expectations going in. That was an advantage the last two Iron Man's didn't have.

It's also an advantage a Superman film will never have.
 
It is a lovely moment. It's just a shame it is immediately followed by a scene in which Clark is fine and cracks a few 'MURICA quips. You've just had this HUGE devastating moment for this character now he is fine.

It's the equivalent of Rachel dying in Batman Begins during the car chase when she is poisoned and its very emotional as Bruce lies her down in the Batcave then straight in the next scene you have Bruce give the "that's damn good television" line. You'd just be a bit like "woah, you're girlfriend just died man".

Except there is a fundamental difference in the timing here. In the scene in MoS, some time has clearly passed.

There is also a difference between Clark and Superman. Superman is the mask. The ideal he shows to the world. His discussion with the General is done in this guise.
 
The themes are not all played out in speeches by Clark's father. They are set up by them. They play out through Clark's actions, his decision making.
Again, great post DarthSkywalker.

Yes, the themes are set up by the father figures. Yes, Clark is the catalyst for acting on them. But then we aren't given enough result.
 
Yeah, there was a clear passage of time. I'm not sure how much, but it doesn't seem like it was five minutes later or whatever.
 
I enjoyed the first Iron Man. I didn't have much expectations going in. That was an advantage the last two Iron Man's didn't have.

It's also an advantage a Superman film will never have.

Yeah I get that cause you're expectations will always be high. It's like I'm yet to see Iron Man 3 and I'm not really expecting anything of it so ill probably enjoy it more than some have.
 
Hi I'm new to the forums and wanted to discuss the issue of kryptonite in the Man of Steel DC universe. I can't post new threads right now but I'll post one on this topic as soon as I get the chance, because I think it's an important issue for future stories.
I'm worried because Zack Snyder essentially hinted that he would have kryptonite in the next films in some form - I think that would be a big mistake. I loved how this film had no kryptonite. It was a better film for it. Superman doesn't need a magical radioactive mineral to appear vulnerable - that's what makes the story interesting. Superman is an invincible demigod but everything he cares about - Earth, Lois, his mother etc are fragile and mortal. What good is immortality if all your loved ones are dead? That's an intriguing theme, and kryptonite always killed it. It's thematically stupid, boring and unsatisfying to use kryptonite. It's like making batman allergic to tomatoes, then producing a tomato every time you need to defeat batman. It's so stupid! Aaaaaaaagh!
Man of Steel recognised this and the drama came out naturally on screen. Humanity was in real plight and superman had to struggle to save them from a force just as powerful as himself. It was such a big step up from every superman story before it. Every time kryptonite has turned up in a superman story I go crazy with frustration. I hate kryptonite. Its a deus ex machina and it needs to be abandoned completely. There. I hope to start a larger discussion about this later with the futile hope that Goyer will read it lol.
P.S maybe they have a very clever plan for kryptonite but I would be unbelievably skeptical. I hate kryptonite - have Lex Luthor kidnap Lois that would be far more intriguing.
Cheers, coffee sowce boi! Gimme some coffee sowce!
Welcome to the Hype! :)

Great first post. You're not alone in the hate against Kryptonite. I feel that alot of it comes from it being misused in the past.
 
Again, great post DarthSkywalker.

Yes, the themes are set up by the father figures. Yes, Clark is the catalyst for acting on them. But then we aren't given enough result.

Character development and plot development is like a good magic trick. It's got the pledge, the turn and the prestige. This film pledged plenty thematically, it turned a few things around and surprised us but never really provided a prestige. It forgot about the end of the journey and just substituted it with action instead. Didn't like it.
 
Welli tell you a few films I actually find entertaining that get slated; Green Lantern and the two Fantastic Four movies. They're not amazing but I never get bored watching them.

I think there's room for the serious ones and even the ones like those that are just easy on the eye shall we say.
:up:

Off the top of my head, I'd go with Constantine, Cowboys & Aliens, and...Timecop.

Three films that aren't the greatest in concept or execution, but that I find supremely entertaining all the same.
 
The last moment Lois and Clark, is just such a strong scene, that I don't think any further acknowledgment or follow up would have been necessary. I'll use The Last of Us as an example again. There is a scene where someone gets killed by (minor spoiler) [BLACKOUT]getting his head hacked in with a machete over and over again[/BLACKOUT]. You think naturally, that's a moment where they talk about the events that transpired. Nope, no such thing. Just a time skip and that moment gets never talked about again. Because naturally, we can assume that that is exactly what happened. And just leaving it up to our imagination, is probably better than anything they could have come up with.
 
I just wondered what they were I'm not gonna judge it's just curiosity. But then again your 5 greatest might not be ones you consider to be great films you just might get more enjoyment out of them.

It's like I'd say Iron Man 1 is the best if the MCU solo movies but its not my favourite.
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Man of Steel
Batman Begins
The Dark Knight
Dredd
Kick-Ass

Off the top of my head, those are the "great ones" of the live action films imo. But there are others I love quite a lot, and would probably have higher on my favorites list. Blade 2, First Class, TDKR, The First Avenger, The Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, Batman '89, Sin City, The Rocketeer, X-Men, X-Men 2, Superman Returns, STM, Superman 2, etc.

And I can watch Batman & Robin on loop.
 
Hi I'm new to the forums and wanted to discuss the issue of kryptonite in the Man of Steel DC universe. I can't post new threads right now but I'll post one on this topic as soon as I get the chance, because I think it's an important issue for future stories.
I'm worried because Zack Snyder essentially hinted that he would have kryptonite in the next films in some form - I think that would be a big mistake. I loved how this film had no kryptonite. It was a better film for it. Superman doesn't need a magical radioactive mineral to appear vulnerable - that's what makes the story interesting. Superman is an invincible demigod but everything he cares about - Earth, Lois, his mother etc are fragile and mortal. What good is immortality if all your loved ones are dead? That's an intriguing theme, and kryptonite always killed it. It's thematically stupid, boring and unsatisfying to use kryptonite. It's like making batman allergic to tomatoes, then producing a tomato every time you need to defeat batman. It's so stupid! Aaaaaaaagh!
Man of Steel recognised this and the drama came out naturally on screen. Humanity was in real plight and superman had to struggle to save them from a force just as powerful as himself. It was such a big step up from every superman story before it. Every time kryptonite has turned up in a superman story I go crazy with frustration. I hate kryptonite. Its a deus ex machina and it needs to be abandoned completely. There. I hope to start a larger discussion about this later with the futile hope that Goyer will read it lol.
P.S maybe they have a very clever plan for kryptonite but I would be unbelievably skeptical. I hate kryptonite - have Lex Luthor kidnap Lois that would be far more intriguing.
Cheers, coffee sowce boi! Gimme some coffee sowce!

That is a very interesting take....

I agree, that the mortality of the people he cares about makes him vulnerable rather than a rock. Purists may disagree with us...lol
 
It depends on the tonal shift, Nathan. TMOS went from sombre to upbeat and showing an arrogant Superman. Didn't really add up given the tragedy that just occurred.
 
Yeah I don't consider many CBM's to be truly great.

Nolan's trilogy as a whole I would. The story told is amazing IMO. Though individually I'd say BB and TDK are the truly great ones. TDKR was exceptional IMO just had too many moments that didn't fit with the other two tonally or whatever. It was much more fantastical than the other two.

Whilst I love Iron Man 1 I still don't see it as anything other than a Summer blockbuster done really really well.

I would rank Avengers as a truly great CBM. Because it is just the culmination of a big experiment done as close to perfection as one could imagine. It was the sum of the parts of the Marvel universe and it was just one big great pay off.

The other MCU films I wouldn't especially as a couple felt like films that HAD to be made rather than wanted to be made.

Iron Man 3 I'd rank near the bottom of this entire generation of CBMs. Dunno why but I really have it out for that film.

But yeah I rarely walk out of CBMs thinking "holy cow that was something special" I got that with BB, TDK and TDKR. However on reflection TDKR doesn't really stand up as well. With Avengers for me its when I realised what it was actually the culmination of and how well it done. But yeah even stuff like Amazing Spiderman, Dredd, MoS I left thinking it was good/great, met my expectations but no more.
 
Criticism of a movie is fair.

What annoys me is when people try to wave the previous Superman films around to compare MOS to.

MOS is purposefully a reboot. It means that the other movies are a set of canon, but they are no longer the only canon.

Perhaps that is where a lot of the angst comes from. People were expecting, and perhaps wanting, the film to fall into line with the other films. What people were not expecting was for the film to break the mold, and to break the formula people were comfortable with.

I'm going to be very frank. I'm not the biggest Superman fan. When I was four (I'm 33 now, yikes), I insisted on a pair of Superman pajamas (complete with red cape, of course), even though the pjs were for boys. I loved Superman. But as I got older, he annoyed me. I thought the movies were kind of silly, I hated Lois and Clark. The few comics I read were a bit of a saving grace for me, but even then I still wasn't that connected with him.

I didn't even go see the last Superman film. It looked like a hot mess, and it looked old. Superman needed a new boost, and to be different.

When the preview for this film came out, and I saw Superman screaming in anguish, I knew I had to go see it. It's true there were some awkward moments of dialogue. There were a few moments of really bad editing, particularly, I thought, on Krypton. The whole Codex thing has never made sense to me in Superman, and MOS did not help me with it. In fact, I was even more confused by it. And the worst sin of all for the film were the fight sequences. They were astonishing and beautiful to watch, and holy cow, they went on for forever. Wanton destruction does not bother me, but even I got tired of watching skyscrapers getting smashed.

Overall, however, I loved the film. I loved the visuals. I loved the script, I loved the story. I loved the relationships of Clark and his parents. I loved the building up of the relationship between Lois and Clark. I thought the military reaction to Superman was perfectly done.

I don't mind people criticizing the film. But I don't appreciate people getting huffy when some of their opinions are pointed out as being flawed. Some things are a matter of subjectivity. Certain complaints are a matter of what is fact, and what isn't. When someone complains about something that is clearly not true, I do feel they need to be corrected.

Switching gears now, I did want to address one of the complaints, which is that Superman didn't save enough people in the film.

Whaaaaaat? He saved the whole world! Yes, people died. But he saved so many others. Why doesn't that count? He saved the guys from the oil rig. He saved Lois. He saved his mom. He saved the guy in the helicopter. He saved that family. He saved the world (yes, I said that, but it's worth repeating).

Why isn't that good enough for people?

In that same vein, people have complained that Superman didn't seem to care about the destruction.

Again, whaaaaaaat? He was in the middle of a battle. Just try wrestling with someone to see how easy it is to move yourself away from your surroundings. He may be Superman, but he was evenly matched, and in some ways, out matched by his opponents. To say that he could have moved the fight out of the city is a lot easier to say than to actually accomplish.

And I know the sore point on this, which is that Superman did not stop in the middle of the fight to go save people. There is NOTHING wrong with that, and is what he would have been trained to do if he was a first responder.

If you look at the footage of the Boston Marathon bombing, you'll see that the people who immediately scrambled to help the injured were not the first responders. The first responders held back (not for long), but they held back because they understand that the first thing you do is assess the situation, and deal with the threat before you run into chaos.

It's why, when you fly, they impress the importance upon you for the adults to put the oxygen masks on first, instead of on the child, which is your first protective instinct.

You have to take care of yourself first in a dangerous situation, particularly if you are a guardian of someone who is weaker or younger than yourself, because if you get taken out, who will be left?

Superman did the right thing by remaining focused on the fight. People want Superman to be perfect and to save everyone, but that's not logical. This movie was daring, and brave, and it gets a standing ovation from me, despite it's flaws, for that very reason.
 
:up:

Off the top of my head, I'd go with Constantine, Cowboys & Aliens, and...Timecop.

Three films that aren't the greatest in concept or execution, but that I find supremely entertaining all the same.

:up: I really enjoyed Constantine which is most surprising cause I don't like Keanu Reeves. I've never seen Cowboys & Aliens, take it you'd recommend it then? Timecop is a Van Damme classic :cwink:

Heck I enjoy Superman III, it's got some great moments in it
 
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Man of Steel
Batman Begins
The Dark Knight
Dredd
Kick-Ass

Off the top of my head, those are the "great ones" of the live action films imo. But there are others I love quite a lot, and would probably have higher on my favorites list. Blade 2, First Class, TDKR, The First Avenger, The Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, Batman '89, Sin City, The Rocketeer, X-Men, X-Men 2, Superman Returns, STM, Superman 2, etc.

And I can watch Batman & Robin on loop.

How awesome was Scott Pilgrim?! loved the heck out of that movie.

I have to say :doh: to B&R ha ha :woot:
 
Hi I'm new to the forums and wanted to discuss the issue of kryptonite in the Man of Steel DC universe. I can't post new threads right now but I'll post one on this topic as soon as I get the chance, because I think it's an important issue for future stories.
I'm worried because Zack Snyder essentially hinted that he would have kryptonite in the next films in some form - I think that would be a big mistake. I loved how this film had no kryptonite. It was a better film for it. Superman doesn't need a magical radioactive mineral to appear vulnerable - that's what makes the story interesting. Superman is an invincible demigod but everything he cares about - Earth, Lois, his mother etc are fragile and mortal. What good is immortality if all your loved ones are dead? That's an intriguing theme, and kryptonite always killed it. It's thematically stupid, boring and unsatisfying to use kryptonite. It's like making batman allergic to tomatoes, then producing a tomato every time you need to defeat batman. It's so stupid! Aaaaaaaagh!
Man of Steel recognised this and the drama came out naturally on screen. Humanity was in real plight and superman had to struggle to save them from a force just as powerful as himself. It was such a big step up from every superman story before it. Every time kryptonite has turned up in a superman story I go crazy with frustration. I hate kryptonite. Its a deus ex machina and it needs to be abandoned completely. There. I hope to start a larger discussion about this later with the futile hope that Goyer will read it lol.
P.S maybe they have a very clever plan for kryptonite but I would be unbelievably skeptical. I hate kryptonite - have Lex Luthor kidnap Lois that would be far more intriguing.
Cheers, coffee sowce boi! Gimme some coffee sowce!

It just depends on how the Kryptonite is used, which of course depends on the type of story being told.
 
Yeah, there was a clear passage of time. I'm not sure how much, but it doesn't seem like it was five minutes later or whatever.
I believe Goyer has said about three weeks from the final battle to the final scene.
 
Put me in the anti-green rock camp as well. I think there are more imaginative ways to bring superman down than a solve-all problem rock.

I actually thought it was interesting how they had "kryptonian atmosphere" momentarily weaken superman in MoS. I'd like to see other options explored.
 
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