All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - Part 91

[Isearch4dope]

I'm not saying that the kryptonians were a push over but with regards to being a lethal threat to superman (although he was stronger due to his exposure time which if u factor that in they should have been push overs) i never got the sense that they could hurt him and vice versa.

 

[Lencho01]

More concept art...

http://screencrush.com/man-of-steel-concept-art-zod/

Warner Bros.

Warner Bros.

Warner Bros.

Warner Bros.

Warner Bros.​

 

[Serpico Jones]

The online film community response to Pacific Rim is baffling in comparison to Man of Steel. Truly baffling.

Just returned from it with my 5 year-old who drank in every last image but Del Toro gets a pass for remaking Independence Day?

Guillermo del Toro gives a lot of set tours to the online movie bloggers and they lap up everything he does as a result. MoS has its flaws but it doesn't have the horrible acting that Pacific Rim has and yet it gets nothing but praise from the likes of Devin Faraci and his ilk.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The movie just sits there. Nothing. Dramatically inert. No real character to latch onto. Dialogue that's completely and utterly cliched from a dozen other military type/heroism films we've seen.

It's just...whatever. It felt a lot like the cliched problem I had with Cameron's Avatar. Just eye rolling a lot of the time. And yet, people are just lapping this thing up. Calling it a game changer. WHAT?!

I thought it was amazing. Plan on seeing it again at least once this weekend.

 

[mace1]

If you look really closely at that gif, you can see that they made a mistake with the Superman S (left corner has red when it's supposed to be yellow).

No mistake there.

 

[mace1]

Isearch4dope Kal only mastered flight when he tried the second time.

 

[Loki882]

I love Pacific Rim because it is literally a giant live action mecha anime movie made by a Mexican guy. As a lifelong anime fan, I couldn't help grinning form ear to ear.

 

[Techn9ne77]

I saw Pacific Rim today as well. It was badass. Love it. But like someone else pointed out a page ago, I couldn't help but sit & wonder why the same armchair critics that whined & *****ed about the destruction in MOS didn't seem to have anything to say about this film (and this film easily has three times the city annihilation MOS has). Its like they're saying that destruction is fine here b/c they had Charlie Day & Burn Gorman as the comic relief, therefore, its ok then Like I said, I like PR & enjoy Del Toro as a director, but I still don't understand how what PR did was right/ok & it was soulless, cold, empty in MOS.

 

[Loki882]

Critics can be hypocritical a lot of the time. Roger Ebert praised Irreversable, but condemned I Spit On Your Grave, even though both movies had extremely long and graphic rape scenes. Critics praised Tim Burtons Batman, but trashed the first TMNT movie (even though TMNT had better visuals, a more cohesive and better told story, more compelling characters and interactions, more serious and mature themes, and better humor). Also, unlike Burton's films, TMNT didn't turn nonsensical in the third act. Critics are weird like that.

 

[John-An]

I'm not saying that the kryptonians were a push over but with regards to being a lethal threat to superman (although he was stronger due to his exposure time which if u factor that in they should have been push overs) i never got the sense that they could hurt him and vice versa.

Well harm they do it.. see the ending and check if they are invincible... and Faora-Nam-ek hurt him and the were not full-powered imagine if they reach zod's level?
I see nosense here

 

[Tempest]

I saw Pacific Rim today as well. It was badass. Love it. But like someone else pointed out a page ago, I couldn't help but sit & wonder why the same armchair critics that whined & *****ed about the destruction in MOS didn't seem to have anything to say about this film (and this film easily has three times the city annihilation MOS has). Its like they're saying that destruction is fine here b/c they had Charlie Day & Burn Gorman as the comic relief, therefore, its ok then Like I said, I like PR & enjoy Del Toro as a director, but I still don't understand how what PR did was right/ok & it was soulless, cold, empty in MOS.

When people get an idea into their heads about what a character should or shouldn't be (and even with mountains of evidence that proves their particular 'insights' to be false ones), they cannot stand a single thing that tarnishes the image they have loved on for so long.

It becomes a particular problem when fanon becomes canon.

"My Superman wouldn't kill. My Superman would make sure to save every single person. My Superman lives in a happy world."

These are all things I've seen as complaints against MOS. People assert them as the truth, and then when it's pointed out that really, no it's not the truth, they suddenly want to ignore those inconvenient bits of canon to continue to complain.

It's all about perception. Some people see Superman as the absolute 100% perfect being, who could never do a thing wrong. Other people see him as a pacifist or too gentle to kill.

MOS jolted some people from those sweet fantasies. It's hard to deal with your perceptions being ripped apart, while all the things you tend to ignore in canon are waved in your face for two and a half hours.

It's such a shame too, that fanon has ruined the film for so many people, because I think it's probably one of the better films that's come out over the past two years.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

"it's all about perception. Some people see Superman as the absolute 100% perfect being, who could never do a thing wrong. Other people see him as a pacifist or too gentle to kill.

MOS jolted some people from those sweet fantasies. It's hard to deal with your perceptions being ripped apart, while all the things you tend to ignore in canon are waved in your face for two and a half hours."

Superman generally IS a pacifist, in the sense that he doesn't WANT to fight.
Superman also has a lot of plot devices that help him avoid killing (in comics).
Superman DOES live in a colorful world, but with darkness beneath the surface.
Superman tries to save everyone, but of course he can't.
HOWEVER, Superman knows that the main thing is to take out the threat/enemy so that even MORE people won't get hurt.

Hopefully, the sequels would show Superman trying to strike a balance between saving and fighting.

Correct me if I'm wrong about these points, comic fans

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Let's not forget that Superman was willing to die to try save everyone. I can't remember the exact dialogue but Lois says something to the effect of perhaps the World Engine having the same effect of stripping his powers away and making him vulnerable as the ship did to him earlier. Superman said he didn't know but he had to try. If that's not being super than I don't know what is.

 

[bluearth]

When people get an idea into their heads about what a character should or shouldn't be (and even with mountains of evidence that proves their particular 'insights' to be false ones), they cannot stand a single thing that tarnishes the image they have loved on for so long.

It becomes a particular problem when fanon becomes canon.

"My Superman wouldn't kill. My Superman would make sure to save every single person. My Superman lives in a happy world."

These are all things I've seen as complaints against MOS. People assert them as the truth, and then when it's pointed out that really, no it's not the truth, they suddenly want to ignore those inconvenient bits of canon to continue to complain.

It's all about perception. Some people see Superman as the absolute 100% perfect being, who could never do a thing wrong. Other people see him as a pacifist or too gentle to kill.

MOS jolted some people from those sweet fantasies. It's hard to deal with your perceptions being ripped apart, while all the things you tend to ignore in canon are waved in your face for two and a half hours.

It's such a shame too, that fanon has ruined the film for so many people, because I think it's probably one of the better films that's come out over the past two years.

Brilliant

I can somewhat sympathize with those who do not like this take on the character. I prefered the Burton Batman films to Nolans, and I still do. Are Nolan's extremely grounded and realistic Batman films anywhere near what the comics are? I doubt it. BUT even though I may prefer the style and feel of Burton's Batman, that did not stop me from enjoying Nolan's Batman films for what they were: very well done crime thrillers that just happened to have Batman. Its hard to even describe them as a comic book or superhero movie, yet that didnt seem to stop people from like the movies.

I thought Batman Begins was terribly overrated, but the Dark Knight is the superb film everyone says it is, but of course with a few flaws that everyone tends to overlook (two face is tacked on at the end and then killed by Batman)

But Man of Steel has flaws too. Im a huge Man of Steel fan, and I admit that, but to me the postives from the film more then make up for those flaws. The problem is, when you can't get over "fanon" as your brilliantly call it, really minor issues tend to be magnified in your eyes. Was two-face being tacked on and killed by Batman a minor issue? In the grand scheme of the entire movie, yes, it was minor. Theres even people who, remarkably, are totally against the idea of Superman fighting so much in a movie. They'd rather him play the role of the protector, as in never throwing a punch like the Donner and Singer films.

The biggest and oddest complaint Ive seen is that there is no joy. Watching Superman save oil rig workers, kids on a bus, watching him fly for the first time, watching him being born, or returning to his mother still in the suit after the smallville fight isn't moments of joy? Johnathon Kent watching young Clark with the cape isnt joyful? No heart? Colonel Hardy saying "This man is not our enemy" after he walks out of the rubble to the tune of Hans Zimmer hair raising score isnt showing heart? His reaction to killing Zod? Perry White reaching out to comfort Jenny in the face of death isnt showing heart? "You can save them. You can save all of them." There wasnt heart in those words of Jor-El?

Man of Steel had joy, it had heart, it just came in ways different from the previous films. The Donner and Singer films showed heart through romance. Man of Steel does it differently and I feel people just werent looking in the right places, so it totally flew over their head.

 

[tomoe]

I thought Batman Begins was terribly overrated, but the Dark Knight is the superb film everyone says it is, but of course with a few flaws that everyone tends to overlook (two face is tacked on at the end and then killed by Batman)

The biggest and oddest complaint Ive seen is that there is no joy. Watching Superman save oil rig workers, kids on a bus, watching him fly for the first time, watching him being born, or returning to his mother still in the suit after the smallville fight isn't moments of joy? Johnathon Kent watching young Clark with the cape isnt joyful? No heart? Colonel Hardy saying "This man is not our enemy" after he walks out of the rubble to the tune of Hans Zimmer hair raising score isnt showing heart? His reaction to killing Zod? Perry White reaching out to comfort Jenny in the face of death isnt showing heart? "You can save them. You can save all of them." There wasnt heart in those words of Jor-El?

Man of Steel had joy, it had heart, it just came in ways different from the previous films. The Donner and Singer films showed heart through romance. Man of Steel does it differently and I feel people just werent looking in the right places, so it totally flew over their head.

I thought Batman Begins was very overrated too, and I totally thought that the 'minimovie' with Two Face after the main movie with the Joker was kind of odd in DK, though I'm not sure how else they could have done it to make their point.

As for MOS, it might have had heart and joy but since the movie ends with 45 min to an hour of cold scifi and soulless mindless destruction, that's the impression I leave the theater with. It really overwhelms all the warmth and emotional bits of the first half of the movie. I think the movie would have worked better if those heartfelt moments were distributed more evenly throughout the movie rather than crammed all at the beginning where you almost forget about them later.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I saw Pacific Rim tonight. I enjoyed it, but it's a tad absurd that it has a higher RT score than MOS. MOS is easily the better movie in pretty much every way. PR hits just about every sci-fi action cliche you would expect (the zany comic relief characters making a grand discovery in the nick of time, the reluctant hero being called back to duty, the Val Kilmer Iceman *****ebag mouthing off to said hero constantly, the "This Is Our Independence Day so Stand Men of The West for They May Take Our Lives But They'll Never Take Our Freedom" speech, etc.).

MOS had its own share of cliches of course, but I also found it to have more heart, better characters and action sequences that were easier to make out. The story in PR also felt a lot more disjointed. Although it takes a much more linear approach than MOS, it still felt more jumpy to me, especially towards the end, where it seems like Charlie Hunnam and Rinko Kikuchi are almost completely absent while so much time is spent on the goofy Charlie Day/Ron Perlman/Burn Gorman subplot.

However, like I said, I really enjoyed both movies. But MOS is easily the better film, at least for me.

 

[bluearth]

I thought Batman Begins was very overrated too, and I totally thought that the 'minimovie' with Two Face after the main movie with the Joker was kind of odd in DK, though I'm not sure how else they could have done it to make their point.

As for MOS, it might have had heart and joy but since the movie ends with 45 min to an hour of cold scifi and soulless mindless destruction, that's the impression I leave the theater with. It really overwhelms all the warmth and emotional bits of the first half of the movie. I think the movie would have worked better if those heartfelt moments were distributed more evenly throughout the movie rather than crammed all at the beginning where you almost forget about them later.

The sequel could definitely use better spacing of emotional parts and action scenes. As for the destruction caused by the world engine at the end, oddly enough it didnt seem as bad on a 2nd viewing. Once the initial area below the craft is leveled, the destruction slowly spreads out.

Maybe you can say I've been desensitized. GI Joe and Star Trek Into Darkness, two films I had already seen this summer before Man of Steel, both featured massive destruction of skyscrapers and downtown areas. My initial reaction to the buildings getting vaporized in Man of Steel was 'oh no not this again'.

At that point whether you ended up liking the movie depended on how strong you thought the 2 hrs prior and the final fight and solution with Zod was. Man of Steel slipped into subpar summer blockbuster territory for about 10 minutes, (I thought Smallville and the Zod fights were superb) but that was definitely not enough to tarnish the rest of the film, especially with the emotional end to the Zod fight, in my personal opinion.

 

[Iron_Madrigal]

A question about Superman's powers:

Okay, so I always thought it was the sun that gave him his powers. He stores it's energy, and can go a length of time without directly basking in it.

So, was the movie correct that within Krypton's atmosphere his powers would instantly go away?

 

[Herolee10]

A question about Superman's powers:

Okay, so I always thought it was the sun that gave him his powers. He stores it's energy, and can go a length of time without directly basking in it.

So, was the movie correct that within Krypton's atmosphere his powers would instantly go away?

I think in MOS's canon, the kryptonian atmosphere is like a substitute to "red sun radiation" where it suppresses any radiation that he had stored within him from the yellow sun.

 

[Bruce Malone]

In MoS there are a few things that give kyptonians power on earth. For one earth is much hospitable than krypton, with a lighter gravity, better oxygen etc. thus Kryptonians are born a little more hearty on kryton where conditions are harder.

As well as earth's "younger sun" (not yellow sun) supposedly nourishes his cells with much more energy than Krypton's older less energy output sun.

 

[Bebop Cowboy]

I acknowledge the flaws in MoS. But I just want to say that there were several times in the film that I was just transported back into a 5 year old boy(I'm 34 btw) and found myself having a big smile on my face.

Back when I was a kid, Star Wars, Raiders and Superman amazed me but in all the movies I have seen since then, none have (except for the Matrix) have done this.

So for MoS to provide such an emotional response in me I cannot be anything but a fan of it, despite all the major problems with it.

 

[J.Howlett]

When people get an idea into their heads about what a character should or shouldn't be (and even with mountains of evidence that proves their particular 'insights' to be false ones), they cannot stand a single thing that tarnishes the image they have loved on for so long.

It becomes a particular problem when fanon becomes canon.

"My Superman wouldn't kill. My Superman would make sure to save every single person. My Superman lives in a happy world."

These are all things I've seen as complaints against MOS. People assert them as the truth, and then when it's pointed out that really, no it's not the truth, they suddenly want to ignore those inconvenient bits of canon to continue to complain.

It's all about perception. Some people see Superman as the absolute 100% perfect being, who could never do a thing wrong. Other people see him as a pacifist or too gentle to kill.

MOS jolted some people from those sweet fantasies. It's hard to deal with your perceptions being ripped apart, while all the things you tend to ignore in canon are waved in your face for two and a half hours.

It's such a shame too, that fanon has ruined the film for so many people, because I think it's probably one of the better films that's come out over the past two years.

This. Times a million.

 

[J.Howlett]

Guillermo del Toro gives a lot of set tours to the online movie bloggers and they lap up everything he does as a result. MoS has its flaws but it doesn't have the horrible acting that Pacific Rim has and yet it gets nothing but praise from the likes of Devin Faraci and his ilk.

Yep. Listen, I like Del Toro a lot. I think he's a stunning visualist with great ideas but, in his studio films, his ideas and how they organically work within the story never seem to work out exactly like I think he thinks they do.

Hellboy II is even more inventive visually and dramatically more interesting with a subtext that's hard not to think about than anything he does in Pacific Rim and yet both fall into the same trap of having absolutely nothing happen within the middle of the film. Nothing.

Pacific Rim was a fun time at the movies but I don't want to hear game changing nonsense from a lot of these critics when I know they were bias towards this film from day one. Day one. You knew exactly how they were going to react the moment it was announced that Del Toro was doing this type of film.

Let "At the Mountains of Madness" get made in the near future. For a lot of them, based on their childhoods, it's already a genre masterpiece before a single frame will have been shot. That's just a guarantee.

 

[Iron_Madrigal]

superman is a lame character if you think about it. without his powers he's completely helpless. unlike batman who coulda' picked his way outta those binds.

 

[Doc Ock]

superman is a lame character if you think about it. without his powers he's completely helpless. unlike batman who coulda' picked his way outta those binds.

What?! Clark Kent is still Clark Kent if he doesn't have powers, and still would be one of the most interesting characters in comics. At least IMO. Plus intelligent, he might be able to find a way just like Batman could.