All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Thread Manager, Jul 21, 2013.

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  1. PacificBoy

    PacificBoy Well-Known Member

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    It is, just that this seems to be how Zack Snyder approaches his movies, the money shots. And in a movie which reintroduces Batman to the GA, I can see him going for the spectacle as a story crutch yet again.
     
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  2. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    I mean that critics don't want films to pander to it's audience, they claim to want films to challenge us to use our minds. Surely you see where I'm coming from.
    Zod made the threat(I'm gonna kill everyone), superman reacted = superman cares. Achievement = unlocked.

    Superman fighting zod, no committed facial expressions at the property damage with unconfirmed kills = superman stopped caring?
    The one time they cause serious damage superman was pretty much out cold.

    Zod about to burn innocent family, superman again with the concern and begging = ignore list.

    Remind me, which scene you are referring to, I'm at a loss here.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but superman never once stops acting like a good guy during this film. If that's what you took from this film I think you are being obtuse. Fighting for the sake of the planet in the face of impossible odds is good. What you are doing is taking this level of good and reducing it to garbage in light of what you claim is the level of good needed for superman to satisfy you.

    The only thing I said about avengers is that during their ugly fight they were making constant jokes on the radios, even with all the death and destruction around them. I love that, I love how they can do that and fanboys not claim that those heroes and that filmmaker still care.
    I then said if superman did such a thing he'd be considered Lucifer. Imagine it right now, if superman was fighting zod punching him through the air(not through buildings) and on the second punch he said something about how much fun he's having....how he's bringing the party to mid town and how he's bringing sexy back.
    :othe devil I tell ya.

    This is why I said you are hinting at things needing to be spelled out. Someone who doesn't care would walk away. Simple.
    Someone who does care would do something about it, at the cost of their own life. I think this character cared.

    He pleaded on two entirely separate occasions, his father did too. You want more.
     
    #27
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  3. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    :up: Too bad the whole movie seems to be centred around Batman and him meeting. Plus with Snyder writing the screenplay expect alot of 'fanboy' moments.

    I happen to really like Zack by the way. He blew me away with MOS. However I think we all know how he thinks, and what he likes. Just look at the CGI fighting overload in MOS. That's just what he loves.
     
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  4. herolee10

    herolee10 No More Miracles

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    These next two years are going to be hell for some us aren't they?lol
     
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  5. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    These are all good possibilities. I often forget how happy I should be that Batman is my favorite superhero, since he has the least likely chances of being screwed up or made to look bad.

    Also, Snyder never said that Superman needed more films before teaming up with anyone. He said Superman needed more films before Justice League happens.
     
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  6. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Impossible to know how anyone thinks.

    1. Avengers had alot more cgi fighting than mos. Shall I start making my assumptions now or later about Whedon.
     
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  7. John-An

    John-An Wonder Fingers!

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    I don't see BB weakest... but TDK was mas favorite... but the three of them were awesomesauce...
     
    #32
  8. John-An

    John-An Wonder Fingers!

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    The CGI fights were from other world I didn't feel the CGI... but I guess we have to agree to disagree....
     
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  9. herolee10

    herolee10 No More Miracles

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    Ah I see; I would have thought though that he meant more solo films because even without an Justice League film, having to share a film with batman isn't going to do the character any favors.

    I think it's kind of safe to say that only an handful of topics from MOS will be covered in this new film but not everything that needs to be addressed..things that would have probably been addressed had superman been the only protagonist of his second film/outing.

    Hell, even if it was a reversal of the situation, where Superman was being debuted in a Batman film, let alone Batman's second film, batman fans wouldn't have to worry because everyone knows that superman would just be there to make batman look better.

    Batman is essentially Superman's kryptonite in any media portrayal simply because the people that seem to be in charge of those productions always tend to have batman supporters at the helm of it.
     
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  10. Deserana

    Deserana 2005/2008/2012

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    I'm sorry but I've seen a few comments like this. It simply isn't true. It is speculation based a little on fact. ALL we know is that there will be a Man of Steel 2 with Batman being an "element" of it.

    That is it. No more. No less. From the mouth of Snyder himself. That and a little from Goyer about a title "Superman VS Batman". The story could be about Supes and Lex but an aspect of the story involves Batman.

    This is true. He seems like a better cinematographer than director.
     
    #35
  11. TheFlamingCoco

    TheFlamingCoco Well-Known Member

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    I actually clocked the battles in both movies. Avengers battle of New York was about 20+ minutes long. MOS is about 8 minutes. Yet many complain about the latter, and very few the former.

    I think it's a testament to the writing, pacing, and directing of TA, that many people were emotionally invested enough to not be paying attention to how insanely long the final battle for TA was.

    If MOS was a better constructed movie, people would ignore some of the films more indulgent moments.

    And this is a person who puts MOS on a rather high pedestal.
     
    #36
  12. John-An

    John-An Wonder Fingers!

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    The way He directed MOS was great.. not perfect.... seeing 300, watchmen gives you an idea on which level snyder is... EPICNESS...
     
    #37
  13. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that doing Batman for the sequel is entirely Snyder's doing. It just makes too much sense. It even says so in the press release. Zack Snyder is a huge fanboy for this stuff as is David Goyer, much moreso that Christopher Nolan who was not interested in visualizing framing scenes like the comics or adding DCU references, but rather to see everything from his fresh unsullied perspective. Both Snyder and Goyer have said repetitively that Batman is by far their favorite character, and Zack has even said his dream project is to do a Batman film or a Star Wars film. So tell me it wasn't Zack's idea to do this. Y'know he was just geeking out with Goyer when they were brainstorming and he's just like '**** it, let's do Batman'. It would have been the easiest pitch to WB too, as they're scrambling to have a response to the disruption Disney's success with Avengers has done to these films. It all just makes too much sense.
     
    #38
  14. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    Yup, it was the pacing. You went from one big action sequence with Superman taking the World Engine out and the destruction that was being caused to like a two minute break then the big fight with Zod. You barely had a chance to catch your breath. It wasn't the length of the action but the spacing.
     
    #39
  15. InJustice

    InJustice Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously berating a guy because of ONE work? Let's see what he does with comic book material before we start calling him a bad writer.
     
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  16. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    I understand, but your argument is severely flawed. Showing Superman have an emotional reaction to the destruction his fight with Zod is causing during that fight and showing him at least make an attempt to take the fight out of the city isn't pandering in the slightest, it's maintaining some actual pathos and human emotion during the giant action slugfest that visually reminds people of the largest terrorist attack in US history.

    Yes. That's how pathos in stories works.

    It makes it feel that way, yes.

    I don't remember that being the case at all.

    No. The fact that there was a stretch in between where Superman wasn't reacting to what was likely thousands of deaths is what was really goddamn weird and awkward.


    The end fight with Zod, where Superman and Zod are smashing through and toppling over a few different buildings and it hardly seems to phase Superman that he's in a populated city until they crash into the train station.

    No. I'm not doing that. I'm saying that it makes me really uncomfortable that Superman doesn't make a token attempt to minimize the collateral damage of his fight with Zod or even react to the fact that they're knocking over skyscrapers that people are inside.

    They earned the right to make jokes because they also acknowledged the danger that civilians were in and actively tried to rescue them.

    I am really absolutely not. Wanting Superman to react to the obvious carnage around him isn't wanting things to be spelled out. It's wanting the movie to acknowledge the consequences of what's going on in that scene that people are well aware of because we saw it happen in real life twelve years ago. And, it's wanting some things to stay consistent throughout the film.

    People who care also have emotional reactions to skyscrapers collapsing.

    Yes I do. In that scene where people are actually dying by the thousands I want him to display some actual emotions about it.
     
    #41
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  17. John-An

    John-An Wonder Fingers!

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    For me was well developed the origin and the story.. not so long and not the same plot as in STM..
     
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  18. John-An

    John-An Wonder Fingers!

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    Well talking about nosense... juvenile and what? LOL I guess his only way to see a perfect is if the movie has a great dose of humor... well good for you =)
     
    #43
  19. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    Of course I'm generalizing, but I do think it's clear just by looking at his entire body of work, that that is what he loves, and spends most of his time on. Look at the way he did the commentary for the Faora/Superman fight on the NY Times site. Avengers shined on it's witty dialogue that is Joss Whedon's schtick. Sure there was alot of great visual effects, and it wasn't a deep film by any means, but it was Whedon's quippy, humorous dialogue, combined with the sense of fun, that made it all work. Writing is Whedon's greatest strength. Snyder absolutely destroys him when it comes to visuals and directing. But ultimately a film falls down on it's writing.
     
    #44
  20. KRYPTON INC.

    KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    I have a pile of pistols that needs some people to do high hurdles over. The posters here all look like good candidates.... Or in other words: MAN EVERYBODY HERE IS GOOD AT JUMPING THE GUN!
     
    #45
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  21. PacificBoy

    PacificBoy Well-Known Member

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    It isn't so much the length of the fight or the amount of CGI -- Man of Steel's CGI is spectacular, trumps The Avengers IMO -- it's what's being done with the CGI. In that 20 minute sequence, you had the Avengers beating off the aliens, saving civilians, showing teamwork with a couple of good quips thrown in for good measure -- it dovetailed with the movie's tone excellently.

    MoS's 8 minute stretch was two superaliens superpunching each other, causing plenty of collateral damage while doing next to zero damage to each other, until Zod's death, that is. The extent of the choreography was superpunching.
     
    #46
  22. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    It's not about the amount, it's about the focus and presentation. The last 15 minutes of Man of Steel was near non stop CGI action without much else going on. Avengers sprinkled character and pathos throughout their film, they broke up the spectacle with some human emotion.
     
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  23. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    We just don't know enough at the moment. But everything we know at this point revolves around Batman. That's how Snyder pitched it. That's what Goyer's talked about. It's Superman meeting Batman. Obviously there will be more. But all the emphasis so far has been on the fact that Batman's in it.
     
    #48
  24. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    I have to disagree with you man, I think Zak Snyder is a pretty terrible director. He frames very beautiful shots, but when it comes to conveying information to the audience visually, directing actors, and the thousands of choices about music, pacing, lighting, sound mixing and editing that a director has the responsibility to make, he is extremely sloppy.
     
    #49
  25. KRYPTON INC.

    KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    There was more than enough human emotion in MOS. That being said, though I actually love, repeat LOVE the pacing of MOS, after the section of the film from the world engine destruction through to the showdown with Zod is very propulsive and the audience is kind of "assaulted" by the action. I can get why some find that off putting.
     
    #50
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