All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[Nathan]

World's. Greatest. Detective. Simple as that. Batman's genius-level intellect and detective skills are the answer to Superman's physical power. That's why the dynamic between these two is so interesting. Their strengths and weaknesses balance each other, somewhat.

Batman will be able to discover things about Superman's identity/origin/source of power/weakness that other people cannot, just like Superman can look right through Batman's mask to see that he is really Bruce Wayne. This is going to be AWESOME.

Realizing that Krypton's atmosphere is toxic to Superman and creating a green glowing, radiating rock, that somehow has the same effect, are still two completely different things.

And as far leaving that Kryptonite nonsense in the comics, no thanks. If they're going to do that, then they might as well also make Bruce Wayne an alien with super-human strength. If you're to scared to watch Superman's ultimate (and necessary) weakness exploited, then I guess it's only fair to also no have Bruce's weakness exploited -- his humanity.

I think there's already the problem. Viewing Kryptonite as necessary. Kryptonite is not necessary and never should be. I don't mind Batman being able to neutralize Superman, but it shouldn't be as simple as putting on a little ring, so everyone and their Grandma can beat up Superman. And even then, it always depends on the person in charge, how effective Kryptonite really is. Batman with a little Kryptonite Ring can kick Superman's ass, yet Superman can still put up a fight with Metallo. So decide, does Kryptonite bring Superman down to human levels, does it only half his strength? Decide. If it's the latter, he's still going to kick Batman's ass across the room.

The biggest problem I have with Kryptonite though, is that you can only have it, by simultaneously turning Superman into a freaking idiot. Throw logic out of the window, have literally everything written in Batman's favor, give him back up, all the prep time that he needs, and of course Superman is holding back too. Here are two tips for you Superman. Stay back, and use heat vision.

That's why I loved the new angle with Krypton's atmosphere. It being toxic to Superman, because he never adapted to it. It's a weakness you can't exploit so easily. It's something that truly only works with prep time. It's not like whipping out a ring, out of your led box, tucked away in your belt. The only way to stop Superman, should be by luring him into room, where Krypton's atmosphere has been successfully recreated. But luring him into that room, should be the hard part. If for some reason, they even fight at all in the Movie, Batman's whole end goal of his strategy, should be to get Superman into that room. And the battle along the way would have to be brutal. And that would be like a one off plan. Because it would be difficult to have Superman fall for the same trap twice.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I don't like a ring. Kryptonite brass knuckles would look cooler in live action.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Never say never.
Expecting SR kinda humiliation.

It's now 3 days in and some of us are still in some kind of depressive death spiral that just baffles me.

 

[Loki882]

SR, oh you mean the movie that should have been called Luthor/Lois and some bastard child of Superman.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Batman didn't intentionally kill Talia. He was trying to stop the truck and she died in a crash. Superman knew he was killing Zod by breaking his neck (he did the right thing btw), so the situations are different.

Batman to Ra's in BB: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."
That is straight up murder. ^ Nolan used a loophole.

 

[Loki882]

Not necessarily, the laws vary according to what state your in (I studied CJ in college). It would be more like manslaughter, but given what Ra's had done, no jury in the world would have convicted Batman or anything (they would have probably thrown him a ticker tape parade instead).

 

[Marvin]

kryptonian atmosphere deadly to kryptonians? Didn't seem to deadly to all those bad guys on the black zero ship...

 

[georgec]

Superman being a mopey emo creepy stalker *****e dead beat dad who tries to steal Lois from her loving supportive boyfriend, god that movie actually made me root for Lex Luthor.

SR, oh you mean the movie that should have been called Luthor/Lois and some bastard child of Superman.

Not a fan of SR?

 

[Loki882]

They grew up on Krypton and were used to its effects. Clark grew up on Earth, so he hadn't acclimated to Krypton's climate. The reverse was true for Zod and co.

 

[Nathan]

kryptonian atmosphere deadly to kryptonians? Didn't seem to deadly to all those bad guys on the black zero ship...

Ok, maybe not deadly, but obviously it weakened Superman, because he never adapted to it. Kryptonias that grew up on Krypton, obviously weren't affected.

 

[Loki882]

No georgic, I am not a fan of SR. I love Bryan Singer (Usual Suspects, X1/X2, Valkyrie), but SR was just putrid from beginning to end.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Not necessarily, the laws vary according to what state your in (I studied CJ in college). It would be more like manslaughter, but given what Ra's had done, no jury in the world would have convicted Batman or anything (they would have probably thrown him a ticker tape parade instead).

It was murder. He told Gordon to knock down the bridge. He knew that the train would end up crashing into the ground - with Ra's still in it -and wasn't willing to save Ra's. I'm not even against it, considering I'm not the biggest fan of his rule, but I genuinely saw that as murder.

 

[Loki882]

Maybe, maybe not, it's ambiguous (which I like). However, the simple fact is that Ra's needed to die.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Batman to Ra's in BB: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."
That is straight up murder. ^ Nolan used a loophole.

Batman in TDKT got a whole lot of passes for things MOS is getting pilloried for. Not just Ra's and Talia's deaths, but for collateral damage as well. When the BAT is flying all over Gotham with missiles on it's tail did anyone jump up and complain about the theoretical people in those buildings that get blown up? What about Batman blowing up all those parked cars with the Batpod weapons in TDK before the truck flip? Could he really know NOBODY was in those cars? He pancaked a cop car, and though we saw the cops alive, again, how could he know that miracle would happen? Supes get throw into an empty office building, that is made more than clear to the audience IS empty, but somehow he's histories greatest monster now.

 

[Nathan]

However, the simple fact is that Ra's needed to die.

Most of Batman's villains need to die. Joker being the at the top. Yet has no problem saving that lunatic.

 

[Loki882]

Batman deliberately threw the Joker off that building, so he would have been directly responsible for his death. Ra's was on that train of his own free will and Batman simply left him to face the consequences of his choice. Lets get back to MOS/WF shall we.

 

[Lily Adler]

Superman: Man of Steel: World's Finest: Batman vs. Superman: The Movie: in 3-D or as I like to call it SMOSWFBVSTM3-D.

 

[Nathan]

Batman in TDKT got a whole lot of passes for things MOS is getting pilloried for. Not just Ra's and Talia's deaths, but for collateral damage as well. When the BAT is flying all over Gotham with missiles on it's tail did anyone jump up and complain about the theoretical people in those buildings that get blown up? What about Batman blowing up all those parked cars with the Batpod weapons in TDK before the truck flip? Could he really know NOBODY was in those cars? He pancaked a cop car, and though we saw the cops alive, again, how could he know that miracle would happen? Supes get throw into an empty office building, that is made more than clear to the audience IS empty, but somehow he's histories greatest monster now.

Ha, true. He was pretty reckless in Begins. He was basically willing to risk other people's lives, just so he could save Rachel.

 

[Lily Adler]

What's funny is that back when all these entertainment sites were saying that JL was being planned for 2015 after The Avengers did big at the box office, I said that the logical choice, if Bale were not to return, was to reboot Batman through a World's Finest film or a JL film. Everyone went bats*** (no pun intended) crazy when that was suggested and demanded a solo film first. Of course at the time I expected a WF film after two Superman films, not that it was actually the MOS sequel.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Ha, true. He was pretty reckless in Begins. He was basically willing to risk other people's lives, just so he could save Rachel.

Not to mention all the TV reception he screwed up when he was driving the tumbler over rooftops. My in theatre reaction was "Batman is back! ....and he is F-ing up your cable!"

 

[Herolee10]

Never thought that i'd see the day where Batman would dominate the All things Superman related thread.lol

 

[Loki882]

It called Batman BEGINS, I expect him to screw up a little. MOS is Superman BEGINS, so the same thing applies. TDKR, he didn't have time to worry about CD. A few destroyed/damaged buildings is better than the entire city getting nuked. It's the same in MOS, except that instead of one city being wiped out, it would have been the ENTIRE WORLD.

 

[Nathan]

It called Batman BEGINS, I expect him to screw up a little.

Screwing up by doing mistakes is one thing. Intentionally putting people into harms way is something else entirely.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Batman in TDKT got a whole lot of passes for things MOS is getting pilloried for. Not just Ra's and Talia's deaths, but for collateral damage as well. When the BAT is flying all over Gotham with missiles on it's tail did anyone jump up and complain about the theoretical people in those buildings that get blown up? What about Batman blowing up all those parked cars with the Batpod weapons in TDK before the truck flip? Could he really know NOBODY was in those cars? He pancaked a cop car, and though we saw the cops alive, again, how could he know that miracle would happen? Supes get throw into an empty office building, that is made more than clear to the audience IS empty, but somehow he's histories greatest monster now.

It's because Batman has the stigma of being morally grey (even though I think he leans toward the heroic side) , and Superman has the stigma of being morally pure. So if Superman acts reckless, it's automatically "out of character" while Batman being reckless is considered "in character." But in comics, Batman is VERY prepared so he doesn't HAVE to be reckless. Likewise, Superman often has unexpected encounters so he might handle the fights with some degree of error.

Would I have wanted a sequence of Superman looking around trying to save people? YES.

But the lack thereof doesn't ruin the movie, especially in an era where the suggestion of lives lost is overpowered by the concept of superheroes having lunch in a shawarma place.

And if you think I'm bashing TA, you're wrong. Because with casualties, you either show them and make the tone dark, or gloss over them and come across as careless. MOS did the latter, but the overall movie was in a rather serious context. Thus, it felt like people HAD to have died whenever Superman hit a building with no people in it, but there was also no footage of people mass-evacuating metropolis near the climax.

People assume that due to the tone of MOS, the buildings are full of people. So that taints their view of how the climax was handled, how "unheroic" Superman was, and the amount of taste the footage had.

As for 9/11 imagery, I feel like there is some, but I think a lot of it is coincidental. I wonder if this old video game would have the same accusations of referencing a tragic event if made today. [YT]Au7UYaqpJw8[/YT]

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Never thought that i'd see the day where Batman would dominate the All things Superman related thread.lol

I am not joking when I say, I feel really bad about most likely contributing to your current negative emotional nosedive in relation to this film.