All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

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Trying to save lives is another thing still. His childhood friend was dying and he panicked, which is understandable (sort of like tackling Zod after he threatened Martha). He didn't intentionally put anyone in harms way, and it WAS a mistake. Also, that SWAT/bat/chase scene was a direct homage to Year One, where something very similar happened.
 
It called Batman BEGINS, I expect him to screw up a little. MOS is Superman BEGINS, so the same thing applies. TDKR, he didn't have time to worry about CD. A few destroyed/damaged buildings is better than the entire city getting nuked. It's the same in MOS, except that instead of one city being wiped out, it would have been the ENTIRE WORLD.


No argument from me sir/madam. I just think it's strange that collateral damage in one film gets a total pass and will be defended to the (figurative) death and in the other film it's ALL anyone can talk about.
 
Reactions are highly..conflicting .Batman is reckless trying to save his girlfriend-Ooh cool, look at his awesome driving ability and gadgets. Superman acts reckless trying to save all the Earthlings-WHAT DID YOU DO TO HIM?!

:lmao:
 
I think there's already the problem. Viewing Kryptonite as necessary. Kryptonite is not necessary and never should be. I don't mind Batman being able to neutralize Superman, but it shouldn't be as simple as putting on a little ring, so everyone and their Grandma can beat up Superman. And even then, it always depends on the person in charge, how effective Kryptonite really is. Batman with a little Kryptonite Ring can kick Superman's ass, yet Superman can still put up a fight with Metallo. So decide, does Kryptonite bring Superman down to human levels, does it only half his strength? Decide. If it's the latter, he's still going to kick Batman's ass across the room.

The biggest problem I have with Kryptonite though, is that you can only have it, by simultaneously turning Superman into a freaking idiot. Throw logic out of the window, have literally everything written in Batman's favor, give him back up, all the prep time that he needs, and of course Superman is holding back too. Here are two tips for you Superman. Stay back, and use heat vision.

That's why I loved the new angle with Krypton's atmosphere. It being toxic to Superman, because he never adapted to it. It's a weakness you can't exploit so easily. It's something that truly only works with prep time. It's not like whipping out a ring, out of your led box, tucked away in your belt. The only way to stop Superman, should be by luring him into room, where Krypton's atmosphere has been successfully recreated. But luring him into that room, should be the hard part. If for some reason, they even fight at all in the Movie, Batman's whole end goal of his strategy, should be to get Superman into that room. And the battle along the way would have to be brutal. And that would be like a one off plan. Because it would be difficult to have Superman fall for the same trap twice.

Firstly, everyone and their Grandma would not have access to Kryptonite, so that sort of negates one of your problems with it. Batman would never share it with anyone. It's known in the comics (JLA Tower of Babel) that Batman has fail safe protocols against every member of the JLA, just in case one of them falls out of line or is somehow compromised by an outside force. He knows how to neutralize all of them. When the other members discover that Batman has withheld those files from them, Superman votes to expel Batman from the JL. This prompts Batman to reveal his secret identity of Bruce Wayne to all of the JLA members, simultaneously showing them they can trust him and also giving away his weakness -- his human identity. Pretty cool, but getting a little off topic there.

Secondly, do you want Superman to just be an unbeatable force? The filmmakers of MOS publicly stated that they held back the Kryptonite from MOS, probably saving it to explore down the line. But instead of Kryptonite, they developed another plot device to weaken Superman. The Kryptonian atmosphere thing basically served the same purpose as Kryptonian, with Zod's scientist even saying, "now you're as weak as a human". I imagine the introduction of the rock will serve the same purpose, leveling the playing field for Batman to use his superior fighting skills to put Superman down. It's only fair, dude. There's no conflict without weakness, IMO. Superhero weaknesses/failures are a crucial part of the DNA of all superhero films. Superman should be no different.

Snyder and Goyer most likely figured that there would no more more Kryptonian ships/atmosphere in the MOS follow-up, paving the way for the Kryptonite discovery (on Earth most likely) that will fill that void.

To address another one of your points, how exactly does Kryptonite turn Superman into an idiot, throw all logic out the window, and put everything in Batman's favor? It's his weakness. He can't help it. Just like Bruce Wayne can't help that if you stab him, he bleeds. There's nothing wrong with a hero having a weakness. To be honest, you sound a little ridiculous.

Judging from your recent posts and your concerns, it's clear you're anti-Batman and are not happy about his introduction into this universe so soon. You don't want to see Batman beat down your favorite hero, and I get that, but you're being a little unfair with your desires. You'd do yourself a great favor by relaxing yourself and realizing exactly what's happening here. It's a "best of both worlds" situation, for sure. We're going to see two of the greatest superheroes ever come together in a spectacular way. Both of them will fail at one point. Both of them will also triumph. We're going to see their strengths and weaknesses on display. I don't think these filmmakers are going to disrespect either character by making one out to be the "loser". At this point, you just need to have a little faith and enjoy the ride.
 
I've defended Superman's actions in MOS vociferously (seriously, got back and read my previous posts, I go into agonizing detail). I think that both men were justified in their actions given the circumstances.
 
I've defended Superman's actions in MOS vociferously (seriously, got back and read my previous posts, I go into agonizing detail). I think that both men were justified in their actions given the circumstances.


It's cool. What I posted was more a general statement than towards you in particular. :word:
 
I'm not Anti-Batman. I'm Anti-Bat God, which you obviously adore. I'll leave it at that.


Yeah, it's funny how the Bat-God idea does make Batman pretty much what silver age Superman was, but the fans eat it up without thinking about it much. Then to add a layer of irony to it all the fans will at the same time brag about Batman's "vulnerability, humanity and realness".

My own head cannon idea is not the Bat-God, but the mortal Bat-Master.
 
Oh, ok then KRYPTON INC, sorry for the misunderstanding. I constantly hear people claim that Snyder is going to favor Batman in the film based on NO evidence, so I agree that fanboys can be irrational to the extreme.
 
^ I feel like he inherently feels more strongly towards the Batman character. HOWEVER, I do think he put a lot of thought into the arc of Superman (based on the Empire podcast) and I think he would go out of his way to not undermine it. At least I hope so.
 
I'm not Anti-Batman. I'm Anti-Bat God, which you obviously adore. I'll leave it at that.

It's not that I adore it. It's just that...that's how he's depicted, that's how it is, and that's how it should be.

How would you feel if someone said they were against Superman being the most powerful being in existence? If he could only lift cars and not planes? If his heat vision couldn't burn through things, but could only make them really warm? That'd be changing the character, and I would never want that, not even if it meant Batman would "win". If you're Anti-Bat God, then you're mostly anti-Batman and definitely anti-JL, since theres no other way for that film to work without this genius we call Batman. So either admit it, or choose your words more carefully.

Also, since you chose not to respond/refute anything from my last post, I'm going to assume you secretly agree with most of what I said, and I appreciate it. LOL

For the record, I wasn't trying to turn this into a Batman vs. Superman argument. I was just trying to bring some logic to the table on how these characters are going to clash and be depicted.
 
I thought people got the idea because Snyder is a Frank Miller fan. :hmm
 
^ I feel like he inherently feels more strongly towards the Batman character. HOWEVER, I do think he put a lot of thought into the arc of Superman (based on the Empire podcast) and I think he would go out of his way to not undermine it. At least I hope so.

You're right. Nothing about this film will undermine what Snyder did with MOS, or the Superman character in general. Not sure why some are worried about that.
 
Yeah, it's funny how the Bat-God idea does make Batman pretty much what silver age Superman was, but the fans eat it up without thinking about it much. Then to add a layer of irony to it all the fans will at the same time brag about Batman's "vulnerability, humanity and realness".

My own head cannon idea is not the Bat-God, but the mortal Bat-Master.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that one. How so?
 
You're right. Nothing about this film will undermine what Snyder did with MOS, or the Superman character in general. Not sure why some are worried about that.


Some of the Superman fan base are as touchy about any Superman and Batman interaction as the Thor faithful are about The Son of Odin and The Incredible Hulk. (I will now get ready to duck all the hammers being thrown my way. :oldrazz:)
 
430071_375371282540650_1696745044_n.jpg


Well, comic fans in general are like this. I think this is good and bad at the same time ;)
 
Out of curiosity, what source material would everyone point to as the best Batman/Superman material, where Batman isn't Bat-God, and Superman is respected? I'm drawing a blank. Hush? Kingdom Come? Jeph Loeb's Superman/Batman run? The Silver-Age?
 
Out of curiosity, what source material would everyone point to as the best Batman/Superman material, where Batman isn't Bat-God, and Superman is respected? I'm drawing a blank. Hush? Kingdom Come? Jeph Loeb's Superman/Batman run? The Silver-Age?

Are you suggesting Superman is mostly disrespected in Batman/Superman cross-overs?
 
You're gonna have to elaborate on that one. How so?

What was a general complaint about silver age Superman? Overpowered, impossible to beat, and would come up with new abilities contrived by the writers to ensure his dominance in any given story.

What is the Bat-God ideal if not that as well? Is Bat-God presented as impossible to beat? Does he seem to almost magically always have to ability and skill needed at the exact moment the plot calls for it? Is his improbable wisdom nigh on infallible?

I consider myself a Batman fan. And I think Batman should be presented as AMAZING in skill and character. But if as fans say his appeal is rooted in his "vulnerability, humanity and realness" then he should have limits. I love Batman. He is without a doubt my #2. But the Bat-God take it too much for me and leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to his interaction with other heroes. Like I said, my head cannon Batman is the very mortal "Bat-Master".
 
well one of stories henry read for preparation for MOS is Superman/Batman: The Search for Kryptonite
superman-batman-kryptonite.jpg
 
What was a general complaint about silver age Superman? Overpowered, impossible to beat, and would come up with new abilities contrived by the writers to ensure his dominance in any given story.

What is the Bat-God ideal if not that as well? Is Bat-God presented as impossible to beat? Does he seem to almost magically always have to ability and skill needed at the exact moment the plot calls for it? Is his improbable wisdom nigh on infallible?

I consider myself a Batman fan. And I think Batman should be presented as AMAZING in skill and character. But if as fans say his appeal is rooted in his "vulnerability, humanity and realness" then he should have limits. I love Batman. He is without a doubt my #2. But the Bat-God take it too much for me and leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to his interaction with other heroes. Like I said, my head cannon Batman is the very mortal "Bat-Master".

Haha the Cafe HISHE vids always make light of this: How come Batman always has some deus ex solution? Because: 'I'm Batman'.
 

Ok, lol. I was confused by your wording.

I did really like Loeb's Superman/Batman run. Both characters totally respected, neither more prominent than the other. That run had dual-narration throughout it, so we got to read what each of them thought of one another, which was cool. I'm also looking forward to reading the new Batman/Superman run that just started this month. It's based on their first meetings in the New 52 and takes place before the formation of the JL. The new film might draw from it.

In terms of Batman NOT being the "Bat-God"...I don't know how to respond to that. The Bat-God nickname is used to reflect that using prep time, Batman can overcome most (if not all) obstacles. Research, investigation, and preparation are some of Batman's most essential "powers", if you will...so I'm not sure why anyone would NOT want those things to be a part of the character.
 
^ I'm practically ASKING to be flamed, but I think Batman should feel like ScarJo's Black Widow in TA, especially in World's Finest. Covert, stealthy, manipulative, but does most of her work behind the scenes. Batman should be similar in that respect, while being close with Superman either physically or with some type of Wayne walkie-talkie.

HOWEVER, I'm not fond of when Batman gets amped up just to accommodate assisting Superman. If part of the Caped Crusader's appeal is the lack of physically impossible super-strength, don't have him being thrown against the wall and get up quickly.

The key is too make Batman smart, while still keeping Superman pretty smart. Having Batman have individual operations separate from Superman's but a part of the same mission would do that trick. But they should EVENTUALLY battle some super-villain TOGETHER. Since Snyder's directing, I would want World's Finest (hopefully different from MOS2) to have the famous image of Batman swooping with Superman flying above.

That would make me excited, regardless of the quality of the overall film. Though I hope it's good.
 
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