All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[Tanin]

I hate that people seem to think comic book is a genre.... it is a source material. Even then different characters can be put into different genres. People are too narrow minded.

What were they expecting in an Alien Invasion film?

 

[J.Howlett]

I love that Whedon is so honest and self-critical like that. I think we can expect much better writing from him for A:AoU.

But not better direction. And I'm betting the writing isn't really the problem. I'm willing to be that he has certain perimeters that he can't challenge and that hurts a writer.

 

[Deserana]

I just can not see any way in which Superman get his ass handed to him by Batman -

A) We all seem to agree that Superman wasn't even Superman in MoS as he got his ass kicked and killed someone. The end of the film hinted that NOW we get Superman, a guy who has learnt from his past doings. So why the **** would Snyder and Goyer make his first big scene as the new Superman in MoS2 a scene in which he gets his ass beat by a mortal.

Gee Snyder great Superman there...

B) It would very likely have to introduce Kryptonite, which no matter what way they do it will probably feel like it came out of nowhere.

C) Snyder himself said that they will be making a "SUPERMAN" sequel and always referred to Batman as an "element".

 

[Smallville13]

But not better direction. And I'm betting the writing isn't really the problem. I'm willing to be that he has certain perimeters that he can't challenge and that hurts a writer.

Snyder directing a Whedon script would be awesome. Joss is just so much more competent than Goyer it just isn't fair. I really don't think we should expect any better than MOS in the writing department. What the hell is Paul Dini up to these days?!

That said with Goyer and Snyer both being Bat-fans more than anything it's possible all elements pertaining to Batman could be above the mold. Goyer's original script for Batman Begins was really good I hear. Hopefully Snyder/Goyer don't get too carried away with Batman when doing a 'Superman sequel'.

 

[Deserana]

What the hell is Paul Dini up to these days?!

Sat by a phone waiting for an obvious phonecall by WB or Snyder that is so obvious in its obviousness that it should happen that it will obviously never happen.

 

[DChero]

I just can not see any way in which Superman get his ass handed to him by Batman -

A) We all seem to agree that Superman wasn't even Superman in MoS as he got his ass kicked and killed someone. The end of the film hinted that NOW we get Superman, a guy who has learnt from his past doings. So why the **** would Snyder and Goyer make his first big scene as the new Superman in MoS2 a scene in which he gets his ass beat by a mortal.

Gee Snyder great Superman there...

B) It would very likely have to introduce Kryptonite, which no matter what way they do it will probably feel like it came out of nowhere.

C) Snyder himself said that they will be making a "SUPERMAN" sequel and always referred to Batman as an "element".

I disagree on point A here, but I agree with your overall point. My only fear is that we see Superman presented the way Frank Miller or Bruce Timm have in the past. They would sacrifice Superman's character to play up Batman's.

It sounds like the next movie is as much Batman's as it is Superman's, so it could even be presented as Batman's origin with Superman as an element. I don't expect that to be the case, but the point is that we really don't have any info beyond Superman and Batman will be in a movie released in the summer of 2015.

 

[The Question]

Snyder directing a Whedon script would be awesome.

I disagree vehemently. Snyder's movies are very pretty, but they're not well directed. Joss Whedon isn't as good of a cinematographer as Zack Snyder but he's a much better director over all.

 

[Tempest]

Make it 6, I really liked that scene as well.

Make it seven. I loved this scene so much. It kind of reminds of Jesus at Gethsemane, where he prayed and was all, "I really, really don't want to do this, so if you could change your mind, Dad, I'd appreciate it".

Clark was being reluctant because both choices laid before him were unappealing, and would require a sacrifice on his part. He knew he had to give himself up, but he needed a little more advice.

I liked the scene even more in the novelization.

And I loved that the priest was able to offer Clark kindness and compassion, even in the face of his obvious fear. It gave us another glimpse into why Clark fought so hard for humanity. Sure, people have been jerks to him, but there are good people in the world worth fighting for.

Finally, I just finished reading Superman All Star. That's considered one of the greatest Superman stories? It had potential, but it got downright dumb sometimes.

I did notice that Snyder and Goyer used a lot of material from All Star (they chose well! I applaud the pieces they used).

Thank the heavens they rewrote Lois entirely. I'm embarrassed as a female that DC allows women to be written the way they write Lois. Wow. She is about as stupid as a person can come, isn't she? Lois asked Superman why he chose her, and honestly, I kind of wonder the same thing. What an insipid, brainless **** she is. MOS's Lois is 200 times better than anything I've seen on paper or on-screen.

 

[Tempest]

I hate that people seem to think comic book is a genre.... it is a source material. Even then different characters can be put into different genres. People are too narrow minded.

What were they expecting in an Alien Invasion film?

They were expecting for Superman to smile a lot, to talk the aliens down, and pat them on the back, and have an ice cream social so everyone could get to know one another. Obviously.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Snyder directing a Whedon script would be awesome. Joss is just so much more competent than Goyer it just isn't fair. I really don't think we should expect any better than MOS in the writing department. What the hell is Paul Dini up to these days?!

That said with Goyer and Snyer both being Bat-fans more than anything it's possible all elements pertaining to Batman could be above the mold. Goyer's original script for Batman Begins was really good I hear. Hopefully Snyder/Goyer don't get too carried away with Batman when doing a 'Superman sequel'.

Yeah. I was thinking about how at times TA looked like a sitcom. Snyder brings out the cinematic element of the superhero genre, if nothing else.

I read the BB draft. Some elements actually bothered me less than the finished product, though there is some clunky dialog at times.

Highlights include Ra's tempting Bruce to kill him. Low moments include Batman speaking of himself in third person.

WAYNE
I will not take a life. I will not be
a part of this.
RA’S AL GHUL
But you already are. You’ve given
Gotham a potent symbol of fear...

 

[J.Howlett]

I disagree vehemently. Snyder's movies are very pretty, but they're not well directed. Joss Whedon isn't as good of a cinematographer as Zack Snyder but he's a much better director over all.

Sorry but no ****ing way. Not in this universe or the next is Whedon a better director than Snyder.

 

[Smallville13]

Yeah. I was thinking about how at times TA looked like a sitcom. Snyder brings out the cinematic element of the superhero genre, if nothing else.

I read the BB draft. Some elements actually bothered me less than the finished product, though there is some clunky dialog at times.

Highlights include Ra's tempting Bruce to kill him. Low moments include Batman speaking of himself in third person.

WAYNE
I will not take a life. I will not be
a part of this.
RA’S AL GHUL
But you already are. You’ve given
Gotham a potent symbol of fear...

Reminds me of:
Superman: No, I won't be a part of this.
Zod: Then what can you be a part of?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Earth

 

[The Question]

Sorry but no ****ing way. Not in this universe or the next is Whedon a better director than Snyder.

I absolutely believe that. Snyder's greatest strength is his talent with aesthetics. He can't not make a pretty shot. And his aesthetics talents in cinematography are much better than Whedon's, he makes prettier movies. But in terms of conveying information and theme through cinematography, in terms of setting and controlling the film's pace, in terms of transitioning from one tone and one character to the next as the story develops, and in terms of directing actors Whedon is a much better director than Snyder in all categories.


In what way do you think Zack Snyder is a better director than Joss Whedon, and why do you think it's so obvious?

 

[Notrip]

Having Batman in this movie along with Lex is all you need really. Putting another villain or main person into the movie could be overkill. The thing that I am worried about is Clark Kent the person. This movie already sounds like it could be 3 hours long with all the new characters involved. They need more Lois/Clark/Superman scenes together. Goyer and Synder need to introduce Jimmy Olsen, Bruce/Batman, and Lex. (Here is hoping Laurence Fishburne doesn't get the shaft again with only 3 main scenes.) They need another female character in this movie (fingers crossed for Lana or someone from Batman's mythos) possibly introduce Alfred. There is going to be a lot going on and I pray Synder and Goyer don't get to crazy and they just tell their story, without going overboard. They need better character development, especially with Lois, Clark, and the new Bruce/Batman. Should be really interesting what happens next, the casting of the new Batman.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Having Batman in this movie along with Lex is all you need really. Putting another villain or main person into the movie could be overkill. The thing that I am worried about is Clark Kent the person. This movie already sounds like it could be 3 hours long with all the new characters involved. They need more Lois/Clark/Superman scenes together. Goyer and Synder need to introduce Jimmy Olsen, Bruce/Batman, and Lex. (Here is hoping Laurence Fishburne doesn't get the shaft again with only 3 main scenes.) They need another female character in this movie (fingers crossed for Lana or someone from Batman's mythos) possibly introduce Alfred. There is going to be a lot going on and I pray Synder and Goyer don't get to crazy and they just tell their story, without going overboard. They need better character development, especially with Lois, Clark, and the new Bruce/Batman. Should be really interesting what happens next, the casting of the new Batman.

THIS!!

But the casting of Batman is actually one of my least concerns. Sure, many film fans would freak if it didn't seem like Bale (even if it was more comic-bookish, quiet, and sinister), because Bale is Batman in the eyes of many.

But this inevitable for every reboot. People'll cry foul, and then adjust.

If Batman's a minor character, he doesn't have to have a powerful arc, he just needs to show some depth and be aesthetically pleasing. I'm more than sure the director will deliver on this point.

I feel like they'll nail Batman (within the suit, anyway), no matter what.

It's the Metropolis/global/Clark driven narrative that I'm more concerned about.

 

[Deserana]

I absolutely believe that. Snyder's greatest strength is his talent with aesthetics. He can't not make a pretty shot. And his aesthetics talents in cinematography are much better than Whedon's, he makes prettier movies. But in terms of conveying information and theme through cinematography, in terms of setting and controlling the film's pace, in terms of transitioning from one tone and one character to the next as the story develops, and in terms of directing actors Whedon is a much better director than Snyder in all categories.


In what way do you think Zack Snyder is a better director than Joss Whedon, and why do you think it's so obvious?

I agree with Whedon purely being a better director as in with the actors but for cinematography I think Snyder one ups him. Just having shots like this

Don't do anything for me other than look cool. Infact I can't think of a single shot in Avengers that affected me in any way other than "looking cool" which MoS also had in spades.

This image alone moved me due to the context, the way it was shot and the music and the acting -

I don't care what anyone says but you have to have talent as a director to do that. And Snyder does. I just wish he could do things like this more and focus less on "awesome, awesome, awesome".

 

[STARMAN]

I love the last two scenes of MOS.

 

[Notrip]

Yes, I agree the Clark driven narrative is concerning unless Batman is just a small element in the movie. Batman will NOT be however. He will be in the title and trust me, he is gonna have just as much screen time as Superman. This may be the sequel to Man of Steel, but its Batman and Superman, Superman vs Batman, or they might as well title it Batman: co-staring that other guy. I wish Batman was in the movie 10 minutes or less towards the end with an appearance or two by Bruce Wayne. That could work. I understand that they want to market this movie with Batman, making sure they get close to the Billion mark and compete with Avengers and Star Wars(which may not get the 2015 release), BUT how bad*** would it be if Batman showed up in the third act and we had NO clue. That could have been huge imo. Now its Batman vs. Superman (The predictable someone beats the other and then they fight again to realize they are on the same team, take out the bad guy and now we get the lead into JLA)

 

[The Question]

I agree with Whedon purely being a better director as in with the actors but for cinematography I think Snyder one ups him. Just having shots like this

Don't do anything for me other than look cool. Infact I can't think of a single shot in Avengers that affected me in any way other than "looking cool" which MoS also had in spades.

This image alone moved me due to the context, the way it was shot and the music and the acting -

I don't care what anyone says but you have to have talent as a director to do that. And Snyder does. I just wish he could do things like this more and focus less on "awesome, awesome, awesome".

I feel like The Avengers had it's fair share of moving shots. I think the "just cool looking" shots from Avengers you cite as examples and many others in the film like them do a lot more than look cool, they convey information about the characters, the setting, and the them. That upward shot of Nick Fury, for example, gives us a sense of the space of the place he's walking into, how large and important it is, and establishes the gravity of the situation that;s unfolding in front of us.

I feel like the Man of Steel shot you cite as an example was moving for some people because it was a very aesthetically pleasing shot that uses iconic imagery that means something to us, which goes back to my point of that being Snyder's primary skill.

But, anyway, a big point I made was about using imagery to convey information and theme. Not just using imagery to strike an emotional chord, but to further what the story is about. And I think Whedon is much better at that than Snyder.

 

[Lencho01]

Um how exactly did superman outsmart lex in STM?
How exactly did he out smart lex in Superman returns?
Here's your answer, he didn't he was saved.

As for Red Son, that was a world class mental ass kicking. Even batman would have been like

Goyer wrote Begins, lots of smart stuff in that movie, tech and law jargon and stuff. Can't be all rocks for brains.

Where is that gif from? Every time I see it, I can't help but laugh.

 

[Marvin]

I absolutely believe that. Snyder's greatest strength is his talent with aesthetics. He can't not make a pretty shot. And his aesthetics talents in cinematography are much better than Whedon's, he makes prettier movies. But in terms of conveying information and theme through cinematography, in terms of setting and controlling the film's pace, in terms of transitioning from one tone and one character to the next as the story develops, and in terms of directing actors Whedon is a much better director than Snyder in all categories.


In what way do you think Zack Snyder is a better director than Joss Whedon, and why do you think it's so obvious?

Everyone likes to talk big about technical analysis, few people even attempt to back it up.

Here's my cue to pimp my pals Snyder analysis. Watch part two as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-AfgK8LcKo

Safe to say Zack isn't a complete hack. Though people can and will get away with making that assertion on the internet for all time.

 

[Marvin]

Where is that gif from? Every time I see it, I can't help but laugh.

I feel the same way.
Couldn't tell you were it's from.

 

[STARMAN]

Batman is not the type of character that can simply be used as a cameo. Once you tell the audience he's in the film he has to be in the film. You can't tease the audience about a Superman-Batman film for the next two years and then have Batman appear for a few minutes.

 

[The Question]

Everyone likes to talk big about technical analysis, few people even attempt to back it up.

Here's my cue to pimp my pals Snyder analysis. Watch part two as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-AfgK8LcKo

Safe to say Zack isn't a complete hack. Though people can and will get away with making that assertion on the internet for all time.

The opening sequence of The Watchmen was one of the best things Zack Snyder ever did, I've always given him props for that.