All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[Marvin]

The opening sequence of The Watchmen was one of the best things Zack Snyder ever did, I've always given him props for that.

As true as that may be, it's not really what I was suggesting people pay attention too. The opening fight scene alone is marvel of creative story choices imo.

 

[The Question]

As true as that may be, it's not really what I was suggesting people pay attention too. The opening fight scene alone is marvel of creative story choices imo.

How so? Because I really don't see it.

 

[John-An]

I agree with Whedon purely being a better director as in with the actors but for cinematography I think Snyder one ups him. Just having shots like this

Don't do anything for me other than look cool. Infact I can't think of a single shot in Avengers that affected me in any way other than "looking cool" which MoS also had in spades.

This image alone moved me due to the context, the way it was shot and the music and the acting -

I don't care what anyone says but you have to have talent as a director to do that. And Snyder does. I just wish he could do things like this more and focus less on "awesome, awesome, awesome".

I give it the director thumbs up on snyder... His work on watchmen and MOS are more difficult than Avengers IMO... but Whedon is a great director thought..

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Snyder builds scenes, Whedon builds WORLDS.

And Nolan builds Batman from the ashes of the 1998 travesty.

We're all good now. t:

 

[John-An]

Snyder builds scenes, Whedon builds WORLDS.

And Nolan builds Batman from the ashes of the 1998 travesty.

We're all good now. t:

his previously work and his future work (mos 2 wf) WAS AND WILL BE A WORLD´S FINEST t:

 

[Loki882]

MOS wasn't world building? You could have fooled me.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ It's funny, but I can see Snyder pulling off WF with ease, especially if he relies on a lot of comic quotes and imagery. World's Finest doesn't have to be really deep. It just has to be fun, with some character depth to it.

I just want that to be a separate movie than MOS2.

 

[Marvin]

How so? Because I really don't see it.

Assuming you watched it, it would be pointless. However,
Lot's of story telling staging, posing and dramatic enhancing by way of editing and sound design. Right down to what the "stances of the fighters suggest about the fighters". The timing of the close ups and slow motion to convey power, use of lighting for silhouette and dominance of character in composition...I digress.

You juxtapose this with the finale fight scene in Captain America for example, I think you then see how one can be viewed as a strongly directed fight sequence and another not so much.

 

[John-An]

^ It's funny, but I can see Snyder pulling off WF with ease, especially if he relies on a lot of comic quotes and imagery. World's Finest doesn't have to be really deep. It just has to be fun, with some character depth to it.

I just want that to be a separate movie than MOS2.

I think there's gonna be a sequel direct to mos after this movie... I have a feeling....

 

[Vid Electricz]

Assuming you watched it, it would be pointless. However,
Lot's of story telling staging, posing and dramatic enhancing by way of editing and sound design. Right down to what the "stances of the fighters suggest about the fighters". The timing of the close ups and slow motion to convey power, use of lighting for silhouette and dominance of character in composition...I digress.

You juxtapose this with the finale fight scene in Captain America for example, I think you then see how one can be viewed as a strongly directed fight sequence and another not so much.

It all depends on what the story calls for or what is appropriate for the story. So while the fight scene in Watchmen looked really nice and was technically well done, it was extraneous and unecessary to the story. This is Snyder's MO. 300 was full of this, Watchmen was full of this, Sucker Punch was entirely comprised of this, MOS was full of this...

 

[Marvin]

It all depends on what the story calls for or what is appropriate for the story. So while the fight scene in Watchmen looked really nice and was technically well done, it was extraneous and unecessary to the story. This is Snyder's MO. 300 was full of this, Watchmen was full of this, Sucker Punch was entirely comprised of this, MOS was full of this...

This is what I think people are getting wrong. How does that fight scene become perfectly necessary to the "Watchmen story"? If the assailant walks in, knocks the Comedian out and throws him out the window? At the end of the day it would attribute the same out to the story would it not?

It was a well directed fight scene with a story into itself, that's all I am personally asking for of such things, but that's me, we all have different demands and we all have different thresholds of "extraneous". Thank goodness bruce lee isn't alive in this age.

 

[Vid Electricz]

This is what I think people are getting wrong. How does that fight scene become perfectly necessary to the "Watchmen story"? If the assailant walks in, knocks the Comedian out and throws him out the window? At the end of the day it would attribute the same out to the story would it not?

It was a well directed fight scene with a story into itself, that's all I am personally asking for of such things, but that's me, we all have different demands and we all have different thresholds of "extraneous". Thank goodness bruce lee isn't alive in this age.

That's cool. We all have our own preferences when it comes to storytelling. I just found that while "fun", it really served no purpose in regards to the story. And in the case of Watchmen, I would have appreciated a certain amount of restraint (as shown in the book) rather than pandering to the LCD looking for an action flick with superheroes hitting each other (which I would argue that Watcmen is not).

 

[The Question]

This is what I think people are getting wrong. How does that fight scene become perfectly necessary to the "Watchmen story"? If the assailant walks in, knocks the Comedian out and throws him out the window? At the end of the day it would attribute the same out to the story would it not?

It was a well directed fight scene with a story into itself, that's all I am personally asking for of such things, but that's me, we all have different demands and we all have different thresholds of "extraneous". Thank goodness bruce lee isn't alive in this age.

The point is that all of the extra fluff, the swelling music, the over the top fight moves, The Comedian punching a hole in a brick wall like it was nothing, and especially the speeding up and slowing down didn't add anything to the fight. That's what's was extraneous. Yes, we would have gotten the same thing out of the story if the assailant had just walked in, knocked the Comedian out, and threw him out the window, but we also wouldn't have had all of that extra stuff that had nothing to do with the story. Ultimately the fight scene would have been much better and serviced the story much better if it had been a more realistic, brutal beat down, and not the over the top thing that it was.

Here's your analysis of the opening fight:

Lot's of story telling staging, posing and dramatic enhancing by way of editing and sound design. Right down to what the "stances of the fighters suggest about the fighters". The timing of the close ups and slow motion to convey power, use of lighting for silhouette and dominance of character in composition...I digress.

None of that is information that's needed in that fight. We don't need close ups and slow motion to convey power, we don't need silhouettes to convey dominance, that's not information with any thematic or narrative relevance in that scene. What that scene needs to convey is that The Comedian is a middle aged man who knows how to fight who gets murdered for unknown reasons. We need that scene to set a mystery into motion. Everything else is largely aesthetic fluff.

 

[Vid Electricz]

The point is that all of the extra fluff, the swelling music, the over the top fight moves, The Comedian punching a hole in a brick wall like it was nothing, and especially the speeding up and slowing down didn't add anything to the fight. That's what's was extraneous. Yes, we would have gotten the same thing out of the story if the assailant had just walked in, knocked the Comedian out, and threw him out the window, but we also wouldn't have had all of that extra stuff that had nothing to do with the story. Ultimately the fight scene would have been much better and serviced the story much better if it had been a more realistic, brutal beat down, and not the over the top thing that it was.

None of that is information that's needed in that fight. We don't need close ups and slow motion to convey power, we don't need silhouettes to convey dominance, that's not information with any thematic or narrative relevance in that scene. What that scene needs to convey is that The Comedian is a middle aged man who knows how to fight who gets murdered for unknown reasons. We need that scene to set a mystery into motion. Everything else is largely aesthetic fluff.

Perfectly said.

The ironic part is that this kind of unnecessary violence/extraneous fluff is exactly what Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons rail against and criticize in the text. Snyder, while slavishly faithful to reproducing still frames from the book into live action, misses the point of Watchmen entirely. Man of Steel followed suit, unfortunately.

 

[Deserana]

But couldn't you say that about every fight? Why did Bane let Batman hit him a load of times when in the end he could easily win?

A lot of stuff in fights could be cut out to achieve the end result.

 

[bapi]

Do you know what would be awesome? Cavill's Superman meeting Supermen from other dimensions played by Cage, Hartnett, Bomer...

 

[The Question]

But couldn't you say that about every fight? Why did Bane let Batman hit him a load of times when in the end he could easily win?

A lot of stuff in fights could be cut out to achieve the end result.

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about how any scene, fight scene or otherwise, conveys it's information affectively and achieves it's end goal effectively. Sure, one could cite logical problems with the ways both Batman and Bane fought in the climax of TDKR, but that fight scene conveyed it's information effectively without any extra fluff that had nothing to do with what the scene was supposed to be about. That scene was the prize fighter's big comeback against the guy who KOed him last time, and it conveyed that perfectly.

 

[Loki882]

Kind of like when Superman fought Zod.

 

[The Question]

Kind of like when Superman fought Zod.

No, not really like that at all. I don't really see that.

 

[Loki882]

Well I did, opinions are a funny thing.

 

[Vid Electricz]

But couldn't you say that about every fight? Why did Bane let Batman hit him a load of times when in the end he could easily win?

A lot of stuff in fights could be cut out to achieve the end result.

It's not about the end result. It's about whether or not it makes sense within the structure of the film and whether it serves in furthering the story.

We don't get to the Batman/Bane fight until almost an hour into the film. Prior to which, we are shown the character of Bruce Wayne as older and out of practice, contrasted with Bane as a near-unstoppable force of nature. When the two finally face off, the fight has no bells and whistles. It's a pared down, down and dirty brawl with Batman putting his all into the fight, relying on old methods and techniques which Bane not only takes, but laughs off. Bruce has finally met his physical match in Bane, where along with his cocksure/suicidal attitude, he meets his defeat- at which point he must learn and change and grow as a character to save the day, etc...

It makes sense thematically AND it's "fun", all in service of story.

Contrast that to any fight in Watchmen and you'll see how extraneous and unnecessary each sequence is.

 

[The Question]

Well I did, opinions are a funny thing.

How did you come to that opinion? I'm curious.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Do you know what would be awesome? Cavill's Superman meeting Supermen from other dimensions played by Cage, Hartnett, Bomer...

I support this.

 

[Vid Electricz]

How did you come to that opinion? I'm curious.

Informed opinions, uninformed opinions, they're all the same around here.

 

[The Question]

Informed opinions, uninformed opinions, they're all the same around here.

I just didn't read it that way at all and I'm curious about other people's perspectives.