All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[TheFlamingCoco]

Salkind also gave us Superman III. He also gave us the truly awful Supergirl movie. He has no room to talk.

In fact, reading defenses of S:TM, they tend to blame the worst parts of the film on Salkind, and say it would have been better if Donner had been left to do it on his won.

Since when did "okay" become such an insult? Also, a person should be allowed to have his own opinion free from ridicule-to a reasonable extent. If someone hypothetically said a cheesy movie from the era he experienced growing up was one of his favorites, we should consider his opinion as well. We might not AGREE with his opinion or reasoning, but a person's opinion should't be invalid just because of someone's past mistakes or personal preferences.

I say this with the hypocritical knowledge that if John Peters bashes MOS later on, I'll just chuckle to myself

 

[bluearth]

Why can't Superman be awesome cool and fun. Why does it have to be one or the other. I didn't even think he was that awesome or cool in mos beyond his ability to punch.

It didn't have to be that way, that way the approach taken. The film could've used some light moments. And that wouldn't have made it like the Donner film. It just at times felt too serious and needed some balance. Hopefully the next film will adjust that.

Well, I think its all easier said then done. If you put too many fun parts into the movie it loses its more serious, grounded tone. I know many say they would have preferred a lighter, funner tone to the movie, and it may have worked. But I have no issue with the tone Goyer and Snyder chose for Man of Steel. Its a different take, and was executed well. Its not like Batman and Robin where Schumacher decided to make Batman into a musical and it ends up a mess.

People complained about not long enough talking moments. The film is already 2 and 1/2 hours long. If you add extended talking sequences it could have started to really drag. Even if you cut 5-10 minutes of action out and replace it with more talking you're back to where you started.

I think alot of people really underestimate the titanic job Snyder and Goyer had on their hands. They didnt have the luxury of two films getting the green light from day 1 like Richard Donner. Snyder and Goyer had to prove themselves with Man of Steel. They had to pack an expansive origin story and Zod's arrival into one film. As a result the movie can feel a bit rushed, with limited talking scenes and characterization.

So why do I still think this is a great film despite its flaws? I thought it had a truckload of touching or powerful scenes. I mean the very first scene of the movie with Kal-El being born was powerful and moving for me, perhaps in large part due to Hans Zimmer's great score. Then there is Zod and Jor-El fighting, 'I will find him!', Lara's death, Clark locking himself in the closet, Clark floating in the water with whales swimming past, and thats just the first 30 minutes! Man of Steel was loaded with great moments. Thats why its hard for me and others to understand why so many people seem intent on picking on its flaws instead of raving about the many things it did great.

 

[tomoe]

It would not have worked at all for the film. They took the disruption that realizing that there is a Super-powered alien among us would cause seriously. In such a situation, Clark needs a truly compelling reason to act in a fully public way. Zod coming is the truly compeling reason.

Maybe I come at this a bit differently because for me the standard is "The Pilot" of "Lois and Clark". We can reduce all the Superman saves in that show to saving Lois Lane.

Anyway, we saw Clark save the oil workers.

When would he have gone public. Lois suppressed her story. She agrees people are not ready. If he tried going public after Zod's announcement people would just arrest him.

This whole complaint is a sign of not judging the film on its own merits, but wanting it to fit in the mold of another film. I am glad they did not follow the mold of STM on this matter.

In the L&C pilot, Superman stops the bomb, lifts the space shuttle, then flies Lois into the planet. I really do not see the advantage of a montage of saves scenes. Anyway, STM had the oddity that despite police were there to see the helicopter save, the news has not reached all police units. That made no sense.

Perhaps, as whole chunks of the story would have had to be changed. However, why can't Clark just decide on his own to reveal himself and become Superman after discovering his origins and Jorel's reveal of the costume and the S symbol meaning hope? I think that is pretty compelling itself, especially since Clark has always had the impulse to help people, but thanks to Jonathan has had to hide his powers. No matter when he revealed himself, it would have been disruptive. I'm not sure revealing himself only when Zod forced it made the world any more 'ready' than if he had revealed himself earlier. I would think the public would be actually way less accepting this way since he appeared at the same time Zod, a genocidal maniac alien of his own kind did.

 

[Loki882]

Revealing himself in normal times makes people scared of him. Revealing himself when a group of alien warriors issue a worldwide threat makes him a useful ally.

 

[tomoe]

Revealing himself in normal times makes people scared of him. Revealing himself when a group of alien warriors issue a worldwide threat makes him a useful ally.

Yeah I don't know about that. The world would be scared of him either way I think. They also may see him as a savior or ally if he reveals himself in normal times by saving lots of people and they may lump him in with those scary aliens if he reveals himself when the world was being threatened by them. Isn't that what happened initially? Stanwick said to fire on them all in Smallville. Even at the end they still felt the need to keep tabs on him, which shows they still didn't completely trust him.

 

[Loki882]

No, they want him to surrender to Zod since Zod will kill them all otherwise. The battle was tearing up the town and they wanted to end things quickly. Also, Col. Hardy even says "this man is not our enemy" not long afterwards.

 

[tomoe]

No, they want him to surrender to Zod since Zod will kill them all otherwise. The battle was tearing up the town and they wanted to end things quickly. Also, Col. Hardy even says "this man is not our enemy" not long afterwards.

"This man is not our enemy" wasn't his first reaction, his first reaction was firing on all, including the one " in blue". He could easily have told them no, not the one in blue, I trust him, but he didn't. They might have hit him anyways but at least they wouldn't have been aiming at him.

 

[PacificBoy]

The vibe I got off the military at the end is "this man isn't our enemy, but neither is he a friend". Not yet a friend anyhow. A realistic attitude until he proves himself further IMO given how this isn't a "truth, justice and the American way" Superman but one who does things "on his own terms".

 

[tomoe]

The vibe I got off the military at the end is "this man isn't our enemy, but neither is he a friend". Not yet a friend anyhow. A realistic attitude until he proves himself further IMO given how this isn't a "truth, justice and the American way" Superman but one who does things "on his own terms".

Yes, so there is still distrust even though he revealed himself when Zod showed up and fought against him. And there still would have been distrust if he had revealed himself earlier too. There would have been distrust no matter when he revealed himself, which is why I found that whole 'world is not ready' thing kind of moot. When would the world ever be ready?

I also really hate that the movie gives the people even more reason to distrust him than just him being an alien. He is the reason Zod found earth in the first place, whether he intended to or not. Sure he stopped Zod and company but if he had never led Zod to earth those billions of people would not have needed to be saved from Zod, and those thousands of people would not have died from the World engine. Zod was already exploring Kryptonian outposts, so he might have found earth eventually, so why not just have had Zod find it on his own instead of having Superman lead him there. Or even have had the military accidentally set off the distress signal after they dug through all that snow and were messing with the ship. They could have written some other way of Zod knowing that Kal was on earth. If they wanted to explore the distrust, it still would have been there, since Zod and Superman are of the same kind-Lex still would have had plenty of ammo against him. Instead it really is kind of Superman's fault that all that destruction and death happened, making his stopping of even more destruction seem less heroic, like he's only fixing the mess that he himself made. Yes he had no idea what he did would summon Zod so he really can't be completely blamed for it, but I really wished they had written it some way that he was less directly involved with it.

 

[PacificBoy]

Yes, so there is still distrust even though he revealed himself when Zod showed up and fought against him. And there still would have been distrust if he had revealed himself earlier too. There would have been distrust no matter when he revealed himself, which is why I found that whole 'world is not ready' thing kind of moot. When would the world ever be ready?

Had the same impression. The world was as ready when Zod showed up as it was when Pa Kent was still alive. There will be people who embrace him -- the Kents and Lois -- and those that fear or are wary of him -- the bullies and the military.

I also really hate that the movie gives the people even more reason to distrust him than just him being an alien. He is the reason Zod found earth in the first place, whether he intended to or not. Sure he stopped Zod and company but if he had never led Zod to earth those billions of people would not have needed to be saved from Zod, and those thousands of people would not have died from the World engine. Zod was already exploring Kryptonian outposts, so he might have found earth eventually, so why not just have had Zod find it on his own instead of having Superman lead him there. Or even have had the military accidentally set off the distress signal after they dug through all that snow and were messing with the ship. They could have written some other way of Zod knowing that Kal was on earth. If they wanted to explore the distrust, it still would have been there, since Zod and Superman are of the same kind-Lex still would have had plenty of ammo against him. Instead it really is kind of Superman's fault that all that destruction and death happened, making his stopping of even more destruction seem less heroic, like he's only fixing the mess that he himself made. Yes he had no idea what he did would summon Zod so he really can't be completely blamed for it, but I really wished they had written it some way that he was less directly involved with it.

Other than those who had direct contact with Kal-El, the rest of the world would view him with a great deal of suspicion. The way the story panned out, it became more of an idea of trust than an idea of hope. Guess the sequel will explore this.

 

[sf2]

Perhaps, as whole chunks of the story would have had to be changed. However, why can't Clark just decide on his own to reveal himself and become Superman after discovering his origins and Jorel's reveal of the costume and the S symbol meaning hope? I think that is pretty compelling itself, especially since Clark has always had the impulse to help people, but thanks to Jonathan has had to hide his powers. No matter when he revealed himself, it would have been disruptive. I'm not sure revealing himself only when Zod forced it made the world any more 'ready' than if he had revealed himself earlier. I would think the public would be actually way less accepting this way since he appeared at the same time Zod, a genocidal maniac alien of his own kind did.

I don't think clark wanna reveal himself. The donning the cape only showed that clark has found his root and embraced it finally. He didn't have the idea to use this identity to help the world.

Only after the zod invasion and that he should trust the people, he would use the identity to help the people. ( the lines at the ending scene)

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Yes, so there is still distrust even though he revealed himself when Zod showed up and fought against him. And there still would have been distrust if he had revealed himself earlier too. There would have been distrust no matter when he revealed himself, which is why I found that whole 'world is not ready' thing kind of moot. When would the world ever be ready?

I also really hate that the movie gives the people even more reason to distrust him than just him being an alien. He is the reason Zod found earth in the first place, whether he intended to or not. Sure he stopped Zod and company but if he had never led Zod to earth those billions of people would not have needed to be saved from Zod, and those thousands of people would not have died from the World engine. Zod was already exploring Kryptonian outposts, so he might have found earth eventually, so why not just have had Zod find it on his own instead of having Superman lead him there. Or even have had the military accidentally set off the distress signal after they dug through all that snow and were messing with the ship. They could have written some other way of Zod knowing that Kal was on earth. If they wanted to explore the distrust, it still would have been there, since Zod and Superman are of the same kind-Lex still would have had plenty of ammo against him. Instead it really is kind of Superman's fault that all that destruction and death happened, making his stopping of even more destruction seem less heroic, like he's only fixing the mess that he himself made. Yes he had no idea what he did would summon Zod so he really can't be completely blamed for it, but I really wished they had written it some way that he was less directly involved with it.

Better than Superman breaking them out of the Phantom Zone.

But yes, I am not fond of when the hero has some responsibility for the villain and/or his plan.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Better than Superman breaking them out of the Phantom Zone.

But yes, I am not fond of when the hero has some responsibility for the villain and/or his plan.

That seems to be Goyer's thing. The microwave emitter from BB was Wayne Enterprises tech as was the fusion reactor in TDKR, both used by the films primary villains. The heroes were just as responsible for the threat as they were in preventing it. t:

 

[tomoe]

That seems to be Goyer's thing. The microwave emitter from BB was Wayne Enterprises tech as was the fusion reactor in TDKR, both used by the films primary villains. The heroes were just as responsible for the threat as they were in preventing it. t:

And Goyer is writing te sequel, so, yay. Lex Luther will create a threat to fight Superman from Batmans tech which goes out of his control. So both batman and superman will be fighting something that they are partially responsible for. Fantastic. I really hope it's nothing like that. The more I think about mos the more furious I get at Goyer and Snyder and the more horrified they're left on their own for batman superman.

 

[roach]

That seems to be Goyer's thing. The microwave emitter from BB was Wayne Enterprises tech as was the fusion reactor in TDKR, both used by the films primary villains. The heroes were just as responsible for the threat as they were in preventing it. t:

it's been around way before Goyer.
Spider-man 2
Spider-man 3
Superman 2
Pym and Ultron
Batman and Azrael

 

[FlawlessVictory]

^The Amazing Spider-Man too

 

[roach]

^The Amazing Spider-Man too

and if what I heard is true the new one too.

 

[Loki882]

Clark isn't really responsible for Zod's attack. He had no idea what Krypton was, let alone how their tech worked or that it would bring Zod to Earth. It was a tragic coincidence. Peter wasn't really responsible for the Lizard either. Connor's was an honorable man who wanted to help people. Peter had no way of knowing that he would do something as stupid as testing the serum on himself.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

it's been around way before Goyer.
Spider-man 2
Spider-man 3
Superman 2
Pym and Ultron
Batman and Azrael

That seems to be a thing. Also, Batman and Red Hood, or in the movie, Batman and Jack Napier.

 

[tomoe]

Clark isn't really responsible for Zod's attack. He had no idea what Krypton was, let alone how their tech worked or that it would bring Zod to Earth. It was a tragic coincidence. Peter wasn't really responsible for the Lizard either. Connor's was an honorable man who wanted to help people. Peter had no way of knowing that he would do something as stupid as testing the serum on himself.

As true as that may be it still doesn't change the fact that if he hadn't set off that distress signal, thousands of people would still be alive. Like the world would have been better off if he didn't exist. It just leaves a bad taste. And just because stuff like this happens a lot in other movies, doesn't make it something that should just be overlooked or accepted. It kind of gives off the impression that more people would be alive if not for these 'heroes'.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

As true as that may be it still doesn't change the fact that if he hadn't set off that distress signal, thousands of people would still be alive. Like the world would have been better off if he didn't exist. It just leaves a bad taste. And just because stuff like this happens a lot in other movies, doesn't make it something that should just be overlooked or accepted. It kind of gives off the impression that more people would be alive if not for these 'heroes'.

More for Luthor to use to his advantage. It's a bit intentional, I think.

 

[Loki882]

That's like saying millions of people would be alive if someone had shot Hitler in the head back when he was still a struggling artist trying to get into art school, so it's somehow his fault. It's a completely ludicrous argument to make. They had no idea what was coming or what would happen. Blaming them for it is just frankly stupid.

 

[roach]

As true as that may be it still doesn't change the fact that if he hadn't set off that distress signal, thousands of people would still be alive. Like the world would have been better off if he didn't exist. It just leaves a bad taste. And just because stuff like this happens a lot in other movies, doesn't make it something that should just be overlooked or accepted. It kind of gives off the impression that more people would be alive if not for these 'heroes'.

I don't buy into this. Who is to say that they wouldn't have discovered earth (Jor'El did...Kryptonians did come here before) anyway and then with no Superman wiped out all humanity.

 

[tomoe]

That's like saying millions of people would be alive if someone had shot Hitler in the head back when he was still a struggling artist trying to get into art school, so it's somehow his fault. It's a completely ludicrous argument to make. They had no idea what was coming or what would happen. Blaming them for it is just frankly stupid.

Not the same. That would be like saying if Jonathan had drowned Kal instead of raising him thousands of people would still be alive. This is from something Kal did, not from something Jonathan didn't do. And no, I'm not saying he can fairly be blamed, but he was still technically responsible for it, whether he intended it or not.

I don't buy into this. Who is to say that they wouldn't have discovered earth (Jor'El did...Kryptonians did come here before) anyway and then with no Superman wiped out all humanity.

I absolutely wish that Goyer had written it so that Zod had discovered earth eventually on his own rather than been led there by Kal. That way, Zod's presence on earth would be much less connected to Kal's actions and Kal stopping him would have been much more heroic.

 

[Loki882]

No, HE'S NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT!! Not in any legal, ethical, or moral way. It was a coincidence. And Zod even said that he was visiting ALL of the old Kryptonian colonies looking for survivors, so he would have found Earth eventually anyway. He prevented global genocide, that's heroic, and saying otherwise is ridiculous.