All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Micromind]

But if the majority of the audience doesnt like it, the movie fails. This isnt art in a gallery these are movies that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. If people dont like the product then money is lost.

These arent art house films looking to win awards, these are tentpole films so subjectivity dies when the receipts come in.

It isnt rocket science, when you tell a straightforward story where the hero does hero things all movie they are successful.

I see your point and everyone is conscious of the fact that ultimately the movie has to do well financially (if not critically), I'm sure that Snyder is also well aware of the fact that he is not making an 'Art-house' movie here, I think Snyder included enough 'heroic' moments in his film to earn as much money as it did.

Some could question that the heroes were not 'heroic enough', otherwise the film would have earned more, that's a calculated risk that they took, in order to show 'Hero's Journey' which spans across three films (MoS, BvS and JL)

I will give them some marks for trying something different.

 

[dhandler01]

But see I am not talking about you or me, I am talking about Warner Brothers and the people who arent like you or me who didnt like the films. We can like it all we want to and to us they are awesome films. When it comes to what we feel we should only care about whether we liked it or not.

But the same holds for those who hate it. And if there is more of the people who dislike it than those who like it then to the outsiders and WB it would be seen as a failure. That is my point.

And sorry but bringing up Logan to prove your point doesnt work. Logan is an endgame...we have had what 7 other films with him where he saves people and fights the bad guy. If Bvs was a sequel to the Nolan films then seeing a Batman that grizzled and hate filled would be epic. This was that universes first showing of Batman it is just backwards.

Remember when I say this stuff I am not saying it as a hater, I am going against my own beliefs.

 

[dhandler01]

I see your point and everyone is conscious of the fact that ultimately the movie has to do well financially (if not critically), I'm sure that Snyder is also well aware of the fact that he is not making an 'Art-house' movie here, I think Snyder included enough 'heroic' moments in his film to earn as much money as it did.

Some could question that the heroes were not 'heroic enough', otherwise the film would have earned more, that's a calculated risk that they took, in order to show 'Hero's Journey' which spans across three films (MoS, BvS and JL)

I will give them some marks for trying something different.

Oh me too! Sometimes it is better to try and fail than to not try at all. But sometimes it is good to listen to the audience as well

 

[Flemm]

Thats just a subjective thought, not an objective truth.

Yeah, but if I'm reading a fan piece about how Attack of the Clones is just as brilliant a movie as Empire, my reaction isn't "you are objectively wrong," it's more like "your analysis is probably missing something important."

One thing I think Nolan was particularly good at was giving everybody something to chew on. For people who are just looking for awesome portrayals of batman and his rogues gallery, those movies work very well. If you want to write a think piece about what batman means to us in the modern world, then you are also ecstatic about those movies.

Interestingly, I think Rises is not quite as amazing as TDK partially because the mixture is not quite as good. TDK works better as a pure story. With Rises the "social commentary and allegory" side of things starts to be more obtrusive and gets in the way of the story a lot more, imho.

Wonder Woman is quite elegant in the way it handles its core themes, I think.

We live in a time when some people are extremely vocal about social justice issues in entertainment, and other people are equally vocal about how they are sick of that stuff.

WW doesn't ignore those issues, but it seems to have presented them in a way that everyone is happy with.

Which I think can only be the result of direct divine intervention from Zeus, tbh

 

[FunkMiller]

Interestingly, I think Rises is not quite as amazing as TDK partially because the mixture is not quite as good.
:

Rises also falls foul of the same thing BvS does with Batman's character, to a somewhat lesser extent. Nolan also moves his Batman away from some of the core characteristics in his desire to tell a definitive story. 8 years off is arguably as bad as murdery Batfleck.

All film makers need to do is trust the character that's been around for decades. That's what Patty Jenkins does, and look at the result.

 

[Bagide]

Rises also falls foul of the same thing BvS does with Batman's character, to a somewhat lesser extent. Nolan also moves his Batman away from some of the core characteristics in his desire to tell a definitive story. 8 years off is arguably as bad as murdery Batfleck.

All film makers need to do is trust the character that's been around for decades. That's what Patty Jenkins does, and look at the result.

Can't the directors tweak the character and update them? Example in MOS they explored the phobia parts of humans towards Superman, how he struggled to fit in. People are uncomfortable when the "bright" heroes are put through the blender.

 

[Wanda Detroit]

Can't the directors tweak the character and update them? Example in MOS they explored the phobia parts of humans towards Superman, how he struggled to fit in. People are uncomfortable when the "bright" heroes are put through the blender.

My problem with MOS, although I liked it over all, I wanted to love it. I love Superman. I will watch pretty much anything he is in. The issue isn't adding in elements that make heroes complicated. But a whole movie with Superman about that? I've only seen it twice but what were the light moments? Any kind of humor?

What made WW work is that it had a good balance of seriousness and heart. Where is the heart with Superman? I'm not talking about heroics. Just plain old enjoying being a hero and helping people. Then it was followed up with BvS the same kind of dourness. Enough. I have seen BvS about 8 times. I enjoyed the movie for what it was. I cannot say I wasn't frustrated with how Superman was portrayed. I didn't feel a sense of familiarity with him. Watching him die in my first viewing of the theatrical cut I didn't feel that emotional punch.

I didn't feel that sense of rooting for him as I do with other things I see Superman in and that doesn't sit well with me as a life long Superman fan.

I do have faith that Justice League will turn that around though.

 

[dhandler01]

Can't the directors tweak the character and update them? Example in MOS they explored the phobia parts of humans towards Superman, how he struggled to fit in. People are uncomfortable when the "bright" heroes are put through the blender.

Of course they can...but doing so is a risk because the audience may not connect with it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Of course they can...but doing so is a risk because the audience may not connect with it.

And if you make Batman a grim, super violent madman suffering from some kind of half assed PTSD, and you make Superman a morose, introspective loner with anger management issues who hates being Superman... they're not going to connect with it.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I dont see your point. Nobody is saying these movies dont fail if they dont make money. None of the previous movies were financial duds either. The point is, you cant judge the quality of a movie by the BO. Otherwise the Transformers and FF series would be the gold standard.

People like to dump all over Transformers as an example of a bad movie making a lot of money. But what they fail to take into account is that the
movies are true to the characters. People that go to see them go to see them because their beloved characters are doing what is expected of them.
Fantastic Four failed financially because they deviated too much from what people expected the characters to be.

 

[Flemm]

People like to dump all over Transformers as an example of a bad movie making a lot of money. But what they fail to take into account is that the movies are true to the characters.

I don't know, my childhood memories of Optimus on tv didn't give me the impression that he was a murderous, bloodthirsty sociopath masquerading as the "good guy"

But that started in the second movie. In the first movie, he said, "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Which is more what people expected from Optimus.

So I think that's a case of the first movie giving fans something really cool visually, that they could get behind, and then things started to go downhill from there.

I enjoyed the first movie as popcorn entertainment. While the 2nd movie is probably the worst experience I can remember having in the theater. I haven't gone back since for those movies.

It went from "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" to "Give me your face." t: (For clarity's sake: he rips his enemy's face off at that point.)

 

[misslane38]

Rises also falls foul of the same thing BvS does with Batman's character, to a somewhat lesser extent. Nolan also moves his Batman away from some of the core characteristics in his desire to tell a definitive story. 8 years off is arguably as bad as murdery Batfleck.

All film makers need to do is trust the character that's been around for decades. That's what Patty Jenkins does, and look at the result.

My problem with MOS, although I liked it over all, I wanted to love it. I love Superman. I will watch pretty much anything he is in. The issue isn't adding in elements that make heroes complicated. But a whole movie with Superman about that? I've only seen it twice but what were the light moments? Any kind of humor?

What made WW work is that it had a good balance of seriousness and heart. Where is the heart with Superman? I'm not talking about heroics. Just plain old enjoying being a hero and helping people.

I didn't feel that sense of rooting for him as I do with other things I see Superman in and that doesn't sit well with me as a life long Superman fan.

I do have faith that Justice League will turn that around though.

And if you make Batman a grim, super violent madman suffering from some kind of half assed PTSD, and you make Superman a morose, introspective loner with anger management issues who hates being Superman... they're not going to connect with it.

Since most of this is BvS talk, I'll move the discussion there.

 

[The Batman]

Rises also falls foul of the same thing BvS does with Batman's character, to a somewhat lesser extent. Nolan also moves his Batman away from some of the core characteristics in his desire to tell a definitive story. 8 years off is arguably as bad as murdery Batfleck.

Frank Miller's Batman had a ten year retirement. When Gotham still needed him.

Also, people frequently forget that in Rises, Bruce only stopped being Batman because Batman was rendered unnecessary by the Dent act. Even still, he regularly went down to the Batcave waiting for a reason to suit up again.

In any event, fans over inflate the importance of the "Batman never quits" trope, IMO.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

My problem with MOS, although I liked it over all, I wanted to love it. I love Superman. I will watch pretty much anything he is in. The issue isn't adding in elements that make heroes complicated. But a whole movie with Superman about that? I've only seen it twice but what were the light moments? Any kind of humor?

What made WW work is that it had a good balance of seriousness and heart. Where is the heart with Superman? I'm not talking about heroics. Just plain old enjoying being a hero and helping people. Then it was followed up with BvS the same kind of dourness. Enough. I have seen BvS about 8 times. I enjoyed the movie for what it was. I cannot say I wasn't frustrated with how Superman was portrayed. I didn't feel a sense of familiarity with him. Watching him die in my first viewing of the theatrical cut I didn't feel that emotional punch.

I didn't feel that sense of rooting for him as I do with other things I see Superman in and that doesn't sit well with me as a life long Superman fan.

I do have faith that Justice League will turn that around though.

8x huh... In theaters or overall? If overall I still might have you beat.
I still think BvS could have been better if they showed Supes high then gradually being brought low instead of having him down and then having the pressure bring him lower. I always feel they don't know how to have Superman speak, perhaps they also don't know how to have him just do random stuff. Like with Diana and the ice cream or the baby. In MoS they had him watch football but it seems it wasn't enough to define his character.

 

[Angel0fDeath]

End credits title + interview with Patty.

What about you, Patty? Is there a particular title sequence you remember that sort of opened your eyes to the possibilities of this aspect of filmmaking?

Patty: Yes, there are quite a few. It’s funny, I think that the opening of the original Superman, the font pulling you into the grandiosity of that movie, was a great one. And this wasn’t one I saw growing up, but Panic Room with the big letters against the buildings.

That’s a fantastic sequence.

Patty: I was thinking that was sort of an obscure one to come up with, but it’s one of the only times that I have been like “WHOA!” I never would have thought of that. I’ve seen everybody copy it ever since. That blew my mind. It was such good design. Fincher always. Fight Club and Se7en are both incredible. Watchmen, that whole Minutemen sequence. The Watchmen title sequence was like the comic book come to life.

http://www.artofthetitle.com/title/wonder-woman/#

 

[Benal]

[YT]s5Bnr1GM3tI[/YT]

 

[Dark Raven]

End credits title + interview with Patty.

http://www.artofthetitle.com/title/wonder-woman/#

The end titles were pretty cool.

But why was Robin Wright billed above Connie Nielsen? Is she considered a bigger star?

Jenkins says she didn't want any opening titles, but I miss those. Just like Superman she mentioned, that gives you a sense of expectation and excitement when the titles and credits are coming on the screen.

 

[Wanda Detroit]

8x huh... In theaters or overall? If overall I still might have you beat.
I still think BvS could have been better if they showed Supes high then gradually being brought low instead of having him down and then having the pressure bring him lower. I always feel they don't know how to have Superman speak, perhaps they also don't know how to have him just do random stuff. Like with Diana and the ice cream or the baby. In MoS they had him watch football but it seems it wasn't enough to define his character.

Yeah, 8 overall. I agree that these movies would have worked better if we got to know Superman first as being beloved and him enjoying being a beacon then have it all fall apart because of the Zod incident and then Lex.

 

[Black Narcissus]

 

[Thome216]

Aah, that's cool!

 

[Dr.]

Aah, that's cool!

...then you might like this too.

 

[Black Narcissus]

 

[ComicChick]

saw this again tonight. No Ragrets

 

[Dark Raven]

saw this again tonight. No Ragrets

Hopefully not. You don't want those things running around in your theatre. I had rugrats in mine.

 

[Rowsdower!]

The end titles were pretty cool.

But why was Robin Wright billed above Connie Nielsen? Is she considered a bigger star?

Jenkins says she didn't want any opening titles, but I miss those. Just like Superman she mentioned, that gives you a sense of expectation and excitement when the titles and credits are coming on the screen.

Yeah Robin is definitely a bigger star. Claire Underwood is a full-blown icon, plus she has other notable roles like Buttercup and Jenn-nuuyyyyy. Connie Neilsen has Gladiator and ummm... season 2 of The Following.