All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well, her politics are evident in the article. Once I looked around the actual site, I felt my suspicions were confirmed. As to the idea that they have to give a nuanced impression of the Amazons for a modern audience... Well that has been the way they have been doing things for a long time, even before Azzarello's run. For myself, I think you will see my posting consistently that I feel that the best path in the WW film is to not only have Diana come to "Man's World" and challenge our assumptions and notions, but to also have Diana beliefs and notions of the world, the Amazonian principles that she was raised with, to also be challenged by the people she meets in this new world to her. Whether that's Trevor or Candy, or Superman or whomever, there's lots to challenge no matter how you present the Amazons. At best, I think they should be a society that has a philosophy of complimentary opposites at it's core. The Amazons to my mind would be a group that takes martial ideals and a martial lifestyle and sees it as the best way to a disciplined and peaceful world. They see the use of honing body and mind as the way to self actualization, and also for the practical aspects of simple self defense and confidence. Yet they still missed out on how the choice to live separate from the rest of the world, from HALF of the human equation is not in line with that thinking (and thus ORIGINALLY, it is one of those common tropes found in myth that it is the destiny of the most FEMININE creation of the island itself, Diana, the one born not of sexual union between man an woman and whom was raised to be the ultimate Amazon, who is destined to actually be the bridge to re-establish the bond between the world of women and the world of men.) But... Lets remember that they achieved this with a nice big helping of supernatural assistance. The island, it being cut off from the rest of the world, in some versions even the bodies of the Amazons themselves... All products of Olympian power. So theirs a lot of, shall we say, evident hypocrisy if you analyze the comic book Amazons. And that's exactly what should be explored in a WW film to my mind. The very notion of the Amazons is in fact, an incomplete equation, no less than if someone dreamed up a fictional all male society. The question is not even really if the WW character and her mythos have deep, inherent contradictions, it's HOW does the mythos and the character own those contradictions in a way that makes sense in some way.

 

[Mad Love]

I think your concept is actually in agreement with the article up to the point where you identify Diana as a symbol for the most feminine. That's where I would also disagree with along with the continuation of identifying the outside world as the world of men.

I don't find these concepts up to date. Rather than engaging in symbols of extreme gender dichotomy, a more beneficial message would be to acknowledge the reality of the gender spectrum. Pure male or female is unrealistic, and making Wonder Woman the most feminine being is highly problematic. Everyone has both feminine and masculine in them including the Amazons. Gender itself shouldn't treated as dueling abstract forces, and we don't really live in a Male vs. Female world. We live in a world victimized by prejudices. What separates the Amazons from the rest of the world, other than some possible mechanism, is their prejudices.

I'm not sure how your abstract concepts would solidify. Why does being made of clay by an island of women result in Diana being the most feminine creation? What defines the most feminine creation? Why is the outside world representative of a world of men when half its citizens are women, not every country is a patriarchy, and patriarchies aren't necessarily sexist. We should be past this Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus way of thinking especially with the improving recognition of LGBT and neuroscience.

Wonder Woman should instead be focused on the core relevance of feminism: societal equality that combats all kinds of prejudices and inequality.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well I use the terminology that is used in the WW mythos itself. I no more think of the actual world as "man's world" than I do actually believe in a fictional island of immortal women. But that is the term the mythology calls on us as fans to buy into on some level, even if it's just to get into the frame of mind of our lead character. And the word mythology is key. These things are not about total rational analysis. Symbolism and the emotional and non-rational attachments... All of that is tied into these types of stories. WW is no more rational in her narrative construction than the story of Athena herself (Again... Everybody read Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson. It has a fascinating take on the dichotomy of deities that have overlapping fields of authority. There is a reason that both Ares and Athena are war gods but have very different stories told about them.) but the symbolism of indeed this irrational concept of "the most feminine" being the one that is the bridge between a feminine only worl and "man's world" is powerful stuff that the unconscious responds to in my view. And it's mythologically sound as well, since, again, themes of complimentary opposites are common in the world of myth. But it's time for me to go now... Work is ending and I gotta go home. Peace. As my friend Ed and I often say... To be continued.

 

[Mad Love]

You needn't adhere to old concepts when the impetus is to create for modern audiences. But wait, what? The moment you abandon rationality is when it no longer is about crafting a palatable story. I think you're attached to abstract ideas, which I do like to indulge in, but they are very difficult to translate and package into a blockbuster superhero movie. I'm not sure this angle would resonate with the mainstream appeal of Wonder Woman.

See you soon.

 

[Bwahaha!]

I'm no fan of Rand. I studied her ideas in depth and wasn't impressed. Basically you trade in nonprofit Gov for for-profit corporations. No thanks. But I think politics could be a very interesting theme in any WW story. I mean, you'd think she'd be all for democracy, especially with her original pro-America ties during World War 2. And yet she's a royal, an heir to the throne, and I'm pretty sure she believes all Amazons should obey the Queen if she gives an order. Not sure how'd they'd reconcile those two concepts. In America, citizens are free to vociferously speak out against the President, and as we know they frequently do, regardless of which party's in power. I'm not saying a WW movie should beat the audience over the head with politics but it could be intriguing as not the main plot, but a thread.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

^Well MM there goes another bit of paradox in the Mythos that it would be nice to address, or at least it would be interesting to address.

 

[Mad Love]

I'm no fan of Rand. I studied her ideas in depth and wasn't impressed. Basically you trade in nonprofit Gov for for-profit corporations. No thanks. But I think politics could be a very interesting theme in any WW story. I mean, you'd think she'd be all for democracy, especially with her original pro-America ties during World War 2. And yet she's a royal, an heir to the throne, and I'm pretty sure she believes all Amazons should obey the Queen if she gives an order. Not sure how'd they'd reconcile those two concepts. In America, citizens are free to vociferously speak out against the President, and as we know they frequently do, regardless of which party's in power. I'm not saying a WW movie should beat the audience over the head with politics but it could be intriguing as not the main plot, but a thread.

It'd like to believe she'd be into something like the Ancient Greek concept of Aristocracy, which is not unlike the Justice League itself.

These sort of ideas are really interesting but I think they're best explored in comics or at least in later sequels. The priority of the first movie should be making a female superhero movie with broad appeal and showing feminism in a way that's attractive to everyone. I think the origin movie should be about maternal relationships, female relationships, and empowerment. That's more in the forefront of what Wonder Woman is about. A little girl should be able to see WW's first movie and totally connect. Once her world is established, then I could see them delving into deeper topics.

 

[Bwahaha!]

It'd like to believe she'd be into something like the Ancient Greek concept of Aristocracy, which is not unlike the Justice League itself.

These sort of ideas are really interesting but I think they're best explored in comics or at least in later sequels. The priority of the first movie should be making a female superhero movie with broad appeal and showing feminism in a way that's attractive to everyone. I think the origin movie should be about maternal relationships, female relationships, and empowerment. That's more in the forefront of what Wonder Woman is about. A little girl should be able to see WW's first movie and totally connect. Once her world is established, then I could see them delving into deeper topics.

I can see the wisdom in exploring deeper themes in later movies. Save some stuff for sequels. Sure. But they can't really gloss over the political structure of the Amazons in the first film. Maybe if Diana wasn't heir to the throne, that might be possible. It's not like they'll explain the Amazon govt in exposition. They'll show it: Hippolyta will give an order and that will be that. If an Amazon disobeys, they'll be quick consequences.

After reading this thread, I considered that perhaps the Amazons employ royalty like the British, where the Queen is mostly a figurehead and elected politicians create policy (the Queen signing off on policy is a mere formality at this point). Yet I don't think that'd be as interesting as an all-powerful monarchy. It'd be cool if...when the Amazons are exposed to democracy, maybe talk of change occurs on the Island. That's seed for great conflict in the sequels.

 

[Mad Love]

I can see the wisdom in exploring deeper themes in later movies. Save some stuff for sequels. Sure. But they can't really gloss over the political structure of the Amazons in the first film. Maybe if Diana wasn't heir to the throne, that might be possible. It's not like they'll explain the Amazon govt in exposition. They'll show it: Hippolyta will give an order and that will be that. If an Amazon disobeys, they'll be quick consequences.

After reading this thread, I considered that perhaps the Amazons employ royalty like the British, where the Queen is mostly a figurehead and elected politicians create policy (the Queen signing off on policy is a mere formality at this point). Yet I don't think that'd be as interesting as an all-powerful monarchy. It'd be cool if...when the Amazons are exposed to democracy, maybe talk of change occurs on the Island. That's seed for great conflict in the sequels.

They'll show it but that's not the same as making the politics a theme of the movie. Hippolyta is too important in their history to be a mere figurehead. They're traditionally depicted as an absolute monarchy.

 

[Bwahaha!]

They'll show it but that's not the same as making the politics a theme of the movie. Hippolyta is too important in their history to be a mere figurehead. They're traditionally depicted as an absolute monarchy.

I agree Hippolyta should not be a mere figurehead. I'm all for an absolute monarchy.

But in fiction, the way you include a theme is by showing it. When Hippolyta gives an order and Amazons immediately obey, the theme of monarchy is presented and likely reinforced through other interactions between royalty and subjects.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think that's fertile grounds to go into, if they were to choose to do so. I mean... If at any point in these films we do see Diana as the Amazonian Ambassador of Peace and Cultural exchange, here to spread the Amazon's world view, well... She'd inevitably get those kind of questions. "Hey Princess... If you all are so damned advanced, how come you still have an un-elected absolute ruler installed by Olympian fiat?" Again... Diana needs to be challenged as much as she challenges in my view.

 

[Bwahaha!]

I think that's fertile grounds to go into, if they were to choose to do so. I mean... If at any point in these films we do see Diana as the Amazonian Ambassador of Peace and Cultural exchange, here to spread the Amazon's world view, well... She'd inevitably get those kind of questions. "Hey Princess... If you all are so damned advanced, how come you still have an un-elected absolute ruler installed by Olympian fiat?" Again... Diana needs to be challenged as much as she challenges in my view.

Totally agree. And even though I don't see her as an official ambassador in the first film, or for most of it...I will be sorely disappointed if she's not the official Themysciran ambassador with an embassy and everything (like in Rucka's brilliant run) in the sequel.

I do wonder which country she is the ambassador to, though. Maybe she should be the ambassador to the UN (the world at large) and have her embassy in NY. Or maybe Themyscrian embassies are set up in each nation, with a different Amazon serving as ambassador for specific countries. These are the details Snyder, MacLaren and Fuchs are probably musing over right now. So jealous!

EDIT: All that said, if they don't use a fictional city as her home base in man's world, I'd like her to be in DC. If that won't work, I'd like one of the WW movies to be primarily set in DC. That pays homage to the character's history.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Totally agree. And even though I don't see her as an official ambassador in the first film, or for most of it...I will be sorely disappointed if she's not the official Themysciran ambassador with an embassy and everything (like in Rucka's brilliant run) in the sequel.

I do wonder which country she is the ambassador to, though. Maybe she should be the ambassador to the UN (the world at large) and have her embassy in NY. Or maybe Themyscrian embassies are set up in each nation, with a different Amazon serving as ambassador for specific countries. These are the details Snyder, MacLaren and Fuchs are probably musing over right now. So jealous!

EDIT: All that said, if they don't use a fictional city as her home base in man's world, I'd like her to be in DC. If that won't work, I'd like one of the WW movies to be primarily set in DC. That pays homage to the character's history.

True. And I also thought that it was used brilliantly as a back drop in the DTV. At the start of that film we saw the Amazon's battling in an ancient Greek city with it's columns and temples. Then it ends in D.C., with it's columns and "temples" as well. It seems a fitting place for a big fight in a WW film.

 

[flickchick85]

I'd also like her to be in D.C., but primarily because that's where I live and that would mean they'd probably do some filming here.

 

[Loki882]

I was always amusing to me that the gods wanted Hippolyta to send a champion to "fight for democracy," against the Nazis. Really, because I'm pretty sure that both Olympus and The Amazons are ruled by absolute monarchs. Kind of a dichotomy there.

 

[Mad Love]

But in fiction, the way you include a theme is by showing it. When Hippolyta gives an order and Amazons immediately obey, the theme of monarchy is presented and likely reinforced through other interactions between royalty and subjects.

In fiction and non-fiction, themes are regarding the plot/narrative. Simply showing it in some scenes is descriptive. Take Thor for example, Asgard was shown as a monarchy but the theme of the movie was arrogance/humility.

I'd also like her to be in D.C., but primarily because that's where I live and that would mean they'd probably do some filming here.

Would Wonder Woman smoke weed?

I was always amusing to me that the gods wanted Hippolyta to send a champion to "fight for democracy," against the Nazis. Really, because I'm pretty sure that both Olympus and The Amazons are ruled by absolute monarchs. Kind of a dichotomy there.

We're taught that democracy is good and a sign of a free world, but democracy has flaws. I mean extreme capitalism can turn democracy into a sham. Themyscira may be a monarchy, but it's no dictatorship. I think they have some level of elective power in place, either a court or council.

 

[Bwahaha!]

I agree theme relates to plot/narrative. And themes will also become apparent by purposely including/showing certain things in a story. If monarchy is a theme, then obviously there will be scenes involving a royal and her subjects, as I described, as well as other types of scenes connected to royal hierarchy. All the story elements are interconnected.

 

[Mad Love]

Monarchy isn't a theme though, it just describes their government. Themes are like the nature of politics, power struggle, betrayal, family, etc.

 

[Bwahaha!]

Monarchy isn't a theme though, it just describes their government. Themes are like the nature of politics, power struggle, betrayal, family, etc.

Splitting hairs. Lol. I can't say "politics" is a theme but it suddenly becomes correct if I say "nature of politics" or "nature of monarchy?" Hmm.

 

[Mad Love]

Splitting hairs. Lol. I can't say "politics" is a theme but it suddenly becomes correct if I say "nature of politics" or "nature of monarchy?" Hmm.

Not really, I mean are you surprised that words have meaning? Subject, theme, motif, symbols are all different things.

It's like saying... the theme of the movie is Wonder Woman. What's that suppose to mean? The theme of the movie is monarchy.... well, that doesn't make a lot of sense because it's not specifying what about monarchy? Just trying to make you see that. No need to get defensive.

 

[Bwahaha!]

Now I totally, totally get it. Thank you.

 

[Mad Love]

. I could see the story dealing with government. Maybe show the founding of Themyscira by Hippolyta, Diana being groomed to be Queen, Amazon reaction to Steve Trevor landing, Wonder Woman's reaction to seeing our government.

That could be a nice way to distinguish the Trinity. Superman is related to the military. Diana is a political figure. Batman represents local enforcement.

 

[Bwahaha!]

. I could see the story dealing with government.

I don't really see that. Now if they want to deal with the nature of Government, the possibilities become endless.

 

[queendarkness12]

I could see the story dealing with government. Maybe show the founding of Themyscira by Hippolyta, Diana being groomed to be Queen, Amazon reaction to Steve Trevor landing, Wonder Woman's reaction to seeing our government.

Could Steve being one of the pilots that never made it to Metropolis to fight against the World Engine?

 

[Mad Love]

I don't really see that. Now if they want to deal with the nature of Government, the possibilities become endless.

You still sound offended. Not sure you really got it.

Could Steve being one of the pilots that never made it to Metropolis to fight against the World Engine?

That would be interesting. Maybe the World Engine messed up his plane's system and that made him crash.