Comics Amazing Spider-Man #584 -- Character Assassination part 1 (spoilers)

[Jack O Lantern]

You guys are stuck on that "Standing over" thng.

Okay let's try it this way-

You're a cop. You want to solve these murders. You come across Spider-Man "standing over the victim's body" Do you:

A. Threaten this super strong, super fast guy who can dodge bullets?

or

B. Calmly approach him asking him to explain his side, even if it's merely to get him to lower his guard to make him easier to capture?

Well here is how thye scene played out:

"Spider-Man freeze! Stay where you are or we'll be forced to open..." Spidey takes off. They open fire.

They did calmly approach him, but Spidey took off.

And they have more than ONE CLUE. They have the victim. They have their history. Who might want them dead, be it Spider-Man or whoever else. It's called investigation, and that's what cops are supposed to do.

Yeah, and they did investigate the victim and they found no connections between them, and no visible motive.

You play the averages. How much has he helped vs. been accused of something (Which he ultimately was cleared of). My point is that the writing needs to move past cliches that were burnt out twenty years ago.

He hasn't been cleared of everything yet. The mystery of the skelton he stole is still open.
Also, nice dodge. Spidey wears a full body coustume, there is no proof that the guy in the suit a year ago, is the guy in the suit today.

Well, I've responded to this above, but the thing is, that this is a plot point that should have been established. If she and Vin have that type of relationship, before she just happens to go skipping through Peter's door. That's good writing.

No it's not good writing. It's pointless writing. Someone having the spare key to someone's apartment isn't special. It doesn't even have to be due to closeness. It can just be the case that they want somebody to have a spare in case they lose theirs. It's just common sense.

As for trust issue. If Peter had such trust issue's he wouldn't live with someone, he would live alone. But he has a room mate, a cop room mate.

 

[Dragon]

Well here is how thye scene played out:

"Spider-Man freeze! Stay where you are or we'll be forced to open..." Spidey takes off. They open fire.

They did calmly approach him, but Spidey took off.

Nope. They did as I said- they THREATENED HIM. What do you think "We'll be forced to open..." means? Open a pizza shop? Open a new credit account? It means OPEN FIRE.

Approaching him calmly is, not drawing a gun (Which we know is useless, anyway) and asking, "Spider-Man- what happened?"

Yeah, and they did investigate the victim and they found no connections between them, and no visible motive.

No connection between them and each other, or them and Spider-Man? No visible motive? And since as stillanerd has stressed, they appear to have died of natural causes, then THERE'S NO MURDER. Spider-Man happened upon a person dying of a heart attack. It happens.

Now of course, I kmow there's more to this. But the police have to follow evidence, and there is none here.

He hasn't been cleared of everything yet. The mystery of the skelton he stole is still open.

Stealing a skeleton is a misdemeanor. Causing someone to become a skeleton is serious. And he's not accused of that.

Also, nice dodge. Spidey wears a full body coustume, there is no proof that the guy in the suit a year ago, is the guy in the suit today.

Dodge? How cute. You really stay in the same gears man. Spider-Man's costume, you may have noticed, is merely tights, not armor. DNA can easily transfer from it. Sweat runs through it, blood stains it.

No it's not good writing. It's pointless writing. Someone having the spare key to someone's apartment isn't special. It doesn't even have to be due to closeness. It can just be the case that they want somebody to have a spare in case they lose theirs. It's just common sense.

Who has a key to your home or apartment? Who would you trust with a key to your home or apartment? Like I said, there's plausibility in characterization. "Would this person do this?" is the question a writer must constantly ask. Marvel's writers say "I want this person to do this". And that's bad writing. Peter would not give someone a key to access his home and secrets. And it's not likely that an NYPD officer like Vin, who sees everyday the fallicy of allowing the wrong people into your home, probably wouldn't either. It's NOT "common sense"

As for trust issue. If Peter had such trust issue's he wouldn't live with someone, he would live alone. But he has a room mate, a cop room mate.

So you think Peter will reveal his secret to Vin? Do you think Peter was cool with Harry knowing his secret when they shared an apartment? He trusts no one with his secret, which is why he never revealed it to anyone (Civil War not-withstanding). Anyone who learned his secret, did so by accident or by scheme.

Peter shares an apartment because he can't afford one on his own (At least the writers are getting something about life in New York right) and he feels at least confident enough that he can protect his secrets from someone who should respect his privacy anyway.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Nope. They did as I said- they THREATENED HIM. What do you think "We'll be forced to open..." means? Open a pizza shop? Open a new credit account? It means OPEN FIRE.

Approaching him calmly is, not drawing a gun (Which we know is useless, anyway) and asking, "Spider-Man- what happened?"

No, that's called protection. Spidey can rip their heads off their bodies if he wants to. They need the gun as an equalizer. It's like when the cops approach someone and they spot a gun on him, he may not draw the gun, or even show any attention of drawing the gun, but the cops will still draw theirs, just in case.

No connection between them and each other, or them and Spider-Man? No visible motive? And since as stillanerd has stressed, they appear to have died of natural causes, then THERE'S NO MURDER. Spider-Man happened upon a person dying of a heart attack. It happens.

Now of course, I kmow there's more to this. But the police have to follow evidence, and there is none here.

But there is a connection to Spider-Man, the spider tracers and that's why he is their only suspect.

They may have died from natural causes, but this is the marvel universe, anything could have happened.

Stealing a skeleton is a misdemeanor. Causing someone to become a skeleton is serious. And he's not accused of that.

But why has he done that? Why did he steal a skelton in a Spider-Man suit?

Not to mention he is unregistered as well.

Dodge? How cute. You really stay in the same gears man. Spider-Man's costume, you may have noticed, is merely tights, not armor. DNA can easily transfer from it. Sweat runs through it, blood stains it.

So they have Spidey's DNA do they? So can't they use that to find out who he is and you know, arrest him for breaking the law?

Who has a key to your home or apartment? Who would you trust with a key to your home or apartment? Like I said, there's plausibility in characterization. "Would this person do this?" is the question a writer must constantly ask. Marvel's writers say "I want this person to do this". And that's bad writing. Peter would not give someone a key to access his home and secrets. And it's not likely that an NYPD officer like Vin, who sees everyday the fallicy of allowing the wrong people into your home, probably wouldn't either. It's NOT "common sense"

So you think Peter will reveal his secret to Vin? Do you think Peter was cool with Harry knowing his secret when they shared an apartment? He trusts no one with his secret, which is why he never revealed it to anyone (Civil War not-withstanding). Anyone who learned his secret, did so by accident or by scheme.

Peter shares an apartment because he can't afford one on his own (At least the writers are getting something about life in New York right) and he feels at least confident enough that he can protect his secrets from someone who should respect his privacy anyway.

You seem to ignore that they gave it to a friend. Carlie isn't going to anything. You're acting as if Peter met some random person on the street and gave his key to them.

Why wouldn't Carlie respect his privacy? Do you think Peter thinks like this "You know I better not give Carlie my spare hey, imagine if she was to sneak in and start seraching through my drawers and wardrobe."

Why would he think that way?

You're just looking for holes, where they're aren't any.

 

[Dragon]

No, that's called protection. Spidey can rip their heads off their bodies if he wants to. They need the gun as an equalizer. It's like when the cops approach someone and they spot a gun on him, he may not draw the gun, or even show any attention of drawing the gun, but the cops will still draw theirs, just in case.

Except that it isn't protection, since if he wanted to disarm them he could. Like I said, IF THEY WANT TO SOLVE THE CASE- they need to try something different, since the approach you endorse has done nothing.

But there is a connection to Spider-Man, the spider tracers and that's why he is their only suspect.

That's not a connection, since anyone can build a spider tracer. If someone is run over by a Ford Truck and the cops don't know who the driver is, should they make the nearest Ford dealership owner the number one suspect?

They may have died from natural causes, but this is the marvel universe, anything could have happened.

So since "anything could have happened" they should accuse someone of MURDER? That makes sense. Good luck winning a trial on that theory.

But why has he done that? Why did he steal a skelton in a Spider-Man suit?

He had an anatomy exam?

But as you say, anyone could have been wearing the suit and stolen the skeleton.

Not to mention he is unregistered as well.

So if you're an unlicensed driver, should I accuse you of murder?

So they have Spidey's DNA do they? So can't they use that to find out who he is and you know, arrest him for breaking the law?

You have to have more than Spidey's DNA, you have to have Peter Parker's matching DNA to track him.

But- my point is that you can match Spider-Man's DNA at one scene to another to know if the same guy was there.

You seem to ignore that they gave it to a friend. Carlie isn't going to anything. You're acting as if Peter met some random person on the street and gave his key to them.

Sigh. Life lesson: You wouldn't give a key to someone you've known for a few months. You wouldn't give a key to someone you know casually at work. You might give a key to a family member or a friend that you've known for years. Someone you've been through thick and thin with. Who you know won't screw you over. I don't think Carlie falls into those categories.

Why wouldn't Carlie respect his privacy? Do you think Peter thinks like this "You know I better not give Carlie my spare hey, imagine if she was to sneak in and start seraching through my drawers and wardrobe."

Uhhh... Wasn't that what she was there to do?

Why would he think that way?

Because... It's happened to him before?

You're just looking for holes, where they're aren't any.

Or maybe you're turning a blind eye.

 

[bryanss3]

dude she wasn't snooping around she was following the Spider Tracer signal she felt weird the whole time she looked in the apartment. The whole time she was following the signal she was think stop. She wasn't snooping just to snoop she was trying to find a killer.
Peter, Vin, Carlie, Lilly, and Harry are good friends. they've all been together as friends in this book for officially over a year. they're not just random people Peter met yesterday. I know for us they are new characters, but they aren't new people to Peter. they've helped find a place to live, helped him move, lived with him, gone to parties, clubs, dates. Yes Harry is Pete's best friend, but these new characters are also close friends in Peter's world. given that it is fine that she has a key especially considering both men who live there want to get in her pants. And about the police
1 they are comic book cops.
2 Spider-man flees the scene after standing over a body that has a Spider-tracer that Spider-man uses. you say anyone can make them. well Spider-man isn't talking to the police. he's not informing them of anything. there are plenty of ways he could without being shot at he just isn't and that is a big factor on why they are after him.
3 Spider-man was already a fugitive so this yet another reason to bring him in.

for some reason Dragon if that is your real name feel like you have to rip this story line apart. Do you even really care or do you have nothing better to do? It seems like you just want to argue about this for no reason. Honestly if you hate this plot that much write to marvel, but you're simply saying there are plot holes just to say it. you don't have anything to back it up... feel free to share an opinion, but don't try to tell us facts that aren't even in the story are right and incriminating things like running from the cops isn't a reason for Spider-man to be a suspect, and giving a friend a key to you're apartment is something outrageous.

 

[Dragon]

dude she wasn't snooping around she was following the Spider Tracer signal she felt weird the whole time she looked in the apartment. The whole time she was following the signal she was think stop. She wasn't snooping just to snoop she was trying to find a killer.

But she was snooping. And Peter would be reasonably protective of that. You typed an entire paragraph to get us right back to where we already were.

Peter, Vin, Carlie, Lilly, and Harry are good friends. they've all been together as friends in this book for officially over a year. they're not just random people Peter met yesterday. I know for us they are new characters, but they aren't new people to Peter. they've helped find a place to live, helped him move, lived with him, gone to parties, clubs, dates. Yes Harry is Pete's best friend, but these new characters are also close friends in Peter's world. given that it is fine that she has a key especially considering both men who live there want to get in her pants.

Those of you who keep defending this point have yet to actually back-up your assertions of how common casual key exchanges are. Who has a key to YOUR home? Someone you've known a year? Someone you know from work?

These characters are fictional. But they should, as is relative to situations involving superhuman beings, behave as real people do. This situation with the key is one of too many examples where they don't.

And about the police
1 they are comic book cops.

And of course, comic book cops have to act like idiots. They can't be written to have some level of intelligence. Great defense.

2 Spider-man flees the scene after standing over a body that has a Spider-tracer that Spider-man uses. you say anyone can make them. well Spider-man isn't talking to the police. he's not informing them of anything.there are plenty of ways he could without being shot at he just isn't and that is a big factor on why they are after him.

But the police can come to this conclusion themselves. Constructing a small homing device isn't exclusive to Spider-Man. And AGAIN- maybe if the cops did something other than draw their guns- WHICH DOESN'T WORK- he might not flee and might talk to them.

3 Spider-man was already a fugitive so this yet another reason to bring him in.

People dying of natural causes is a reason to bring him in? Well, his not wanting to be brought in is why he flees. Thanks for the recap.

for some reason Dragon if that is your real name feel like you have to rip this story line apart.

Yeah. It Sucks.

Do you even really care or do you have nothing better to do? It seems like you just want to argue about this for no reason.

Obviously I care. I've been following Spider-Man for 35 years. I'd actually like to ENJOY reading his adventures again.

Honestly if you hate this plot that much write to marvel, but you're simply saying there are plot holes just to say it. you don't have anything to back it up...

I'd say there are a few pages of text that proves you wrong.

feel free to share an opinion, but don't try to tell us facts that aren't even in the story are right and incriminating things like running from the cops isn't a reason for Spider-man to be a suspect, and giving a friend a key to you're apartment is something outrageous.

It is outrageous. Again- and BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY- How many people you know casually have keys to YOUR HOME? If a casual friend asked for a key to your home, what would your reaction be? You'd think they were NUTS. So yes- again, it's outrageous.

And the very problem IS that so many of these points aren't covered in the story. That's what a PLOTHOLE is.

And as I said, my main problem with things like cops drawing their guns and Spidey fleeing , standing over bodies, etc. IS THAT IT'S OLD CRAP.

This is referred to as Brand New Day, but thus far they're simply recycling the same old concepts, when newer concepts can be developed.

 

[Themanofbat]

That's not a connection, since anyone can build a spider tracer. If someone is run over by a Ford Truck and the cops don't know who the driver is, should they make the nearest Ford dealership owner the number one suspect?

I'd like to point out that in ASM #550 (the fifth issue of BND), Spidey tells police sergeant Detective Palone that the spider-tracers found on the bodies were older models of ones that HE built himself and then tells Palone that he himself builds the tracers and no one else.

It is at that point that Palone wants to hold Spider-Man for questioning in the Spider-Tracer killings...

So yes, by Spider-Man's own admission, they have a connection...

 

[iloveclones]

Boy, I'm so glad we're back to nit-picking every little sentence in a Spider-Man comic. I so missed that.

 

[Dragon]

I'd like to point out that in ASM #550 (the fifth issue of BND), Spidey tells police sergeant Detective Palone that the spider-tracers found on the bodies were older models of ones that HE built himself and then tells Palone that he himself builds the tracers and no one else.

It is at that point that Palone wants to hold Spider-Man for questioning in the Spider-Tracer killings...

So yes, by Spider-Man's own admission, they have a connection...

Uh.. Did you miss the line you typed about them being OLDER MODELS? Meaning models he no longer uses? Thus someone could have gotten hold of them and made use of them in these crimes. If it were Spidey then they'd be the NEW MODELS, right?

And, the very fact that Spider-Man appears to be of reasonable intelligence should suggest to the cop that he wouldn't LEAVE EVIDENCE at the the scene.

Further, I suppose Spidey hasn't just been fleeing from the police? He's trying to help them and all they do is assume it's him rather than investigating further.

 

[Dragon]

Boy, I'm so glad we're back to nit-picking every little sentence in a Spider-Man comic. I so missed that.

Glad I could help. t:

 

[Themanofbat]

Uh.. Did you miss the line you typed about them being OLDER MODELS? Meaning models he no longer uses? Thus someone could have gotten hold of them and made use of them in these crimes. If it were Spidey then they'd be the NEW MODELS, right?

And, the very fact that Spider-Man appears to be of reasonable intelligence should suggest to the cop that he wouldn't LEAVE EVIDENCE at the the scene.

Further, I suppose Spidey hasn't just been fleeing from the police? He's trying to help them and all they do is assume it's him rather than investigating further.

Nonetheless, if they were older models that Spidey himself ADMITTED THAT HE BUILT, that would make him a suspect to be brought in for "QUESTIONING", seeing as they might want to know WHO would have access to the spider-tracers THAT HE ADMITTED THAT HE BUILT.

Cheers...

 

[Dragon]

Nonetheless, if they were older models that Spidey himself ADMITTED THAT HE BUILT, that would make him a suspect to be brought in for "QUESTIONING", seeing as they might want to know WHO would have access to the spider-tracers THAT HE ADMITTED THAT HE BUILT.

Cheers...

So under your above scenario, Spider-Man shouldn't be a suspect. And as you mention, Spider-Man was there answering questions.. So why didn't the cop ask him the question and be done with it?

 

[Themanofbat]

So under your above scenario, Spider-Man shouldn't be a suspect. And as you mention, Spider-Man was there answering questions.. So why didn't the cop ask him the question and be done with it?

Because when Detective Palone said to Spider-Man that he'd have to be detained for questioning, Spider-Man took off; thereby not giving the police the chance to get their answers, and making Spidey seem more like a viable "suspect".

 

[storyteller]

Its easy for use to see spiderman as the hero who plays ball with the cops.We wtach spidermans adventures from his back.


From a police officers point of view. You got a person who could at any second become very dangerous. You do not personally know this man. This man is suspected of being responsible for a series of deaths. In a world where you got gods with hammers and crazy men with the power of explodings suns, and a geek who gets angry and becomes the hulk. Maybe your gonna pull out your gun and ask the man to calmy surrender himself to questioning.


From spidermans perspective he cant get arrested. From the cops perspective, a guilty man may be fleeing the scene. It doesnt matter how many times to man has saved the day. He''s wearing a damn costume. He might not be right in the head.

 

[bryanss3]

How is her having a key a plot hole because we didn't see the exchange? how long have Vin and Carley known each other do we know that? thats not a plot hole. they are not Casual friends they are all good friends I personally don't care for them as characters but I understand that they are good friends. sorry that they've only been in the comic a year and you can't comprehend this, but they're not just casual friends that Pete bumps into once a month. these are the people he is with between work and being a super hero they are close friends. and honestly you must be very paranoid if you think a friend giving a friend a key to your apartment is something Pete or Vin wouldn't do. Yes he has a secret identity, but its not like anyone is going to figure it out. And Carlie was doing her job. Is it her fault thats where she was led too. She's obviously not trustworthy trying to get to the bottom of this.

Running from the cops anytime they get near you is reason enough to be a suspect.

sorry that you don't enjoy the writing but i do and a lot of us here do. telling us the story is bad just cause thats how you feel doesn't do anything you're not swaying anyones opinion here. If you think its bad don't read it

 

[Dragon]

Because when Detective Palone said to Spider-Man that he'd have to be detained for questioning, Spider-Man took off; thereby not giving the police the chance to get their answers, and making Spidey seem more like a viable "suspect".

So how about this: Palone doesn't say "You have to be detained" or anything that will trigger a "fight or flight" response. He just ASKS HIM MORE QUESTIONS.

 

[bryanss3]

^^^
because that is not how Police question Suspects. he can't just ask him in his office and then let Spider-man leave. thats not how you question a suspect. the questioning has to be on record. if he asks Spider-man questions alone thats as good as him making it up there is no proof it ever happened.

 

[Dragon]

How is her having a key a plot hole because we didn't see the exchange?

It's not a plothole because of it not being seen. It's a plothole because of plausibility.

how long have Vin and Carley known each other do we know that? thats not a plot hole. they are not Casual friends they are all good friends I personally don't care for them as characters but I understand that they are good friends. sorry that they've only been in the comic a year and you can't comprehend this, but they're not just casual friends that Pete bumps into once a month. these are the people he is with between work and being a super hero they are close friends.

You're kidding, right? First, you say you don't know how long Vin and Carlie have known each, but then you go on about what "good friends" they are. You don't know, yet you assume. This wouldn't be necessary if the writers actually made this clear.

and honestly you must be very paranoid if you think a friend giving a friend a key to your apartment is something Pete or Vin wouldn't do. Yes he has a secret identity, but its not like anyone is going to figure it out. And Carlie was doing her job. Is it her fault thats where she was led too. She's obviously not trustworthy trying to get to the bottom of this.

So... Peter would be concerned about someone coming into his home and learning his secrets. But he shouldn't worry about this- EVEN THOUGH THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS in this story. Do you actually read what you write?

Running from the cops anytime they get near you is reason enough to be a suspect.

A suspect for what? Everything? THe Spider Tracer victims died of natural causes!

sorry that you don't enjoy the writing but i do and a lot of us here do. telling us the story is bad just cause thats how you feel doesn't do anything you're not swaying anyones opinion here. If you think its bad don't read it

I couldn't care less about your opinion. And if you have a problem with me expressing MY OPINION- don't read my posts.

 

[bryanss3]

I said we don't know how long implying it seems they've known each other before they were introduced in the story meaning they have probably been friends before meeting Peter.

you are not sharing you're opinion you are arguing with everyone telling them things that are blatantly obvious aren't evidence just cause you say so.

 

[bryanss3]

and another thing if you think Carly shouldn't have a key cause they aren't close friends, how did Pete end up living with Vin. you really think he's gonna move in with some guy cause some girl he barely knows suggests it?

 

[Dragon]

and another thing if you think Carly shouldn't have a key cause they aren't close friends, how did Pete end up living with Vin. you really think he's gonna move in with some guy cause some girl he barely knows suggests it?

People share apartments with complete strangers, not recommended by friends, but from newspaper ads. Although these days, due to all the drama strangers can bring into one's life, background checks and credit checks are regularly done.

Now what's the difference regarding the key exchange? Even living with a stranger, they have stakes involved. They are paying MONEY (Including a security deposit), leaving their own possessions in the apartment and thus will lose something if they do something wrong. Carlie doesn't have such stakes.

As for the question of how long Vin and Carlie have known each other, it's immaterial to the issue. You can know someone for 20 years and not really KNOW them. But all of this could have been explained with simple sprinklings of dialogue.

Carlie to Peter : "Pete this is Vin- We went through the Academy together"

Vin to Peter: "I was trying to hook up with Carlie for a bit, but it didn't work out. But we're still really close. She looks after the place for me when I'm away."

Now, as far as arguing, you need not concern yourself with it, because this is my last response to YOU.

 

[bryanss3]

does that mean you gave up?

 

[Dark Spidey]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought Romita's work in "New Ways To Die" was vastly inferior to his previous stuff in Amazing. Although i've always prefered his pencils when inked by Scott Hanna anyways. For example if you compare the art in NWTD to say, "Coming Home" and the quality is worlds apart.

As for the story, the only thing I didn't get was the whole politics behind the Spider-tracer killer. I mean, why are they saying that Spidey being caught and captured will swing the vote for Hollister? It was Crowne that took up the heavy stance against Spidey. So surely if he's caught, wouldn't Crowne benifit more than Hollister??

Seriously. Could anyone enlighten me regarding the politics that I mentioned here... please??

 

[Themanofbat]

Seriously. Could anyone enlighten me regarding the politics that I mentioned here... please??

I'll get back to you when I have my comics in front of me...

 

[Gamma Goliath]

okay, here's my two cents. from reading the first issue i think i can already tell that this wont be as good NWTD. but it is decent.