The Dark Knight Rises Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle/Catwoman XXI

[The_Raganork]

We haven't seen nearly enough of the characterization and performance to know if it's paid off. If we're talking about the costume, I just don't agree. A lackluster design, regardless of the rationalization, is still a lackluster design.

You're correct, i actually didn't mean that Catwoman has paid off but Nolanverse approach to the Batman lore has paid off, sorry.

Putting The Joker in makeup was a daring move, but it worked because of the visually-striking design. The same cannot be said in this particular instance.

Again, I don't like the costume but until I see the film or some particular moments of her in action I'm not going to say it's paid off or not.

I just can't feel the same way. Again, Nolan can rationalize it and explain it to his heart's content, but I cannot get excited about something that I think is underwhelming. Just can't do it.

So you're saying no matter how good Catwoman may be in the film she's many steps down from the start because the suit is not to your aesthetic pleasures?

I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't have worked. It's a bit more stylized with patterns and textures, but otherwise the catsuit is pretty basic.

I can, I just don't know who the character is yet. These designs are meant to enhance who the character is, where they come from and what they do. Part of why Joker being make-up is so exciting is the deliberate action Joker would need to take to put it on.

It makes him crazy in an accountable way.

When I know what I need to know about this Catwoman then I can say whether or not the A.C. suit could have worked.

I'm assuming, since the suit chosen isn't anything like the A.C. suit there is a deliberate reason the costume looks the way it does.

 

[The_Raganork]

I honestly hate that some suddenly feel a need to have every single thing explained...thanks to Christopher Nolan.

...not everything needs to be explained.

everything is not explained, first of all.

also you're playing by the rules of a particular universe. you cannot just throw them away because they don't suit the way you want things to happen.

I'm not going to see these films to hold them up to other versions of Batman, I'm going to see them because I want to see Good films and what will decide that is if it works within it's own universe.

To compare Nolanverse to nearly any other universe is comparing apples and oranges. If Catwoman was suddenly just whatever, with no explanation it would not be in line with the other two films and while it may please my taste, it would not be in line with the trilogy.

I'm looking for cohesiveness and a trilogy that is true to itself and the characterizations it's started.

Once a new Bat series starts hopefully it'll be different, not because Nolanverse was lacking but because having something different is a good way to see the multi-facets of these characters

 

[ComptonTerry90]

The Joker was not explained...at all. Complete mystery character in this universe. Pretty much everyone else has been given some kind of Origin though. Catwoman may or may not be. Well see. I think a mystery character is a good idea.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Steve Rogers gets to fire a semi-automatic like it's the fourth-o-friggin-July and Catwoman can't even have a sexy golden handgun?

I dunno, I kinda like it. Points if Bruce makes her dump it in the Gotham harbour (or something).

The thing about A.C. is that that Catwoman comes from nothing. She springs into existence and then out of it. There's no story of how she got her suit, where she got it, what it meant to get it.

There's about 0 characterization in that particular character so she could literally gotten it from Batman or Made it herself. The Game offers us no insight to the character at all.

Nolan's Catwoman probably will have a particular place in the world that's going to make the lackluster design of her costume make more sense.

Undoubtedly. With the game it's an entire universe which is meant to be familiar rather than original, and the designs would reflect that to a large extent. Even the "original" deviations in the character-designs fall back on what is familiar and easily recognisable. I guess they followed that formula in Batman Begins to some extent but with the movies they do want to create something original and make something new iconic.

Let's give this a shot. I'm probably not the only one around here who stopped *****ing about the TDK Bat-suit when it's making its way to TDKR. It fits. And it's probably just our imagination but Bale does look more badass in it.

 

[The_Raganork]

That's what I'm saying.

I don't like the Catwoman suit but I'm still willing to believe that in the film between the characterization of the character, the photography and the use of the suit I could actually not mind it while watching it.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Heck I wouldn't mind more deviations in the next Bat-franchise. I'm still waiting on that purely "detective"-centric, hard-boiled Batman noir tale where the entire plot is created around a single murder-mystery.

Old-school Detective Fiction.

(and heck, maybe a nude Selina Kyle with actual sex-scenes...plural... damn it now I can't stop thinking about it.)

 

[Boom]

You're correct, i actually didn't mean that Catwoman has paid off but Nolanverse approach to the Batman lore has paid off, sorry.

That's probably more my fault then for misreading your comment. No apology needed .

Again, I don't like the costume but until I see the film or some particular moments of her in action I'm not going to say it's paid off or not.

Fair enough.

So you're saying no matter how good Catwoman may be in the film she's many steps down from the start because the suit is not to your aesthetic pleasures?

I don't know if I'd say "many steps," but yeah, the presentation of the character as a whole will lose a few points because of it.

That may sound shallow and petty, but the costumes are part of these characters. Will her costume ruin the character as a whole? Not at all. But I'm not going to ignore it just because they got everything else right (which waits to be seen). I'd rather see them nail everything instead of having to settle for one side.

I'm assuming, since the suit chosen isn't anything like the A.C. suit there is a deliberate reason the costume looks the way it does.

Whatever the reason, I really can't see how removing the heels and giving her a cowl would have completely compromised what Nolan was trying to achieve with the character.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

For me, at least when it comes to Nolan's movies, characterisation really does matter more than aesthetics.

As it should be in everything else. These are stories being told after all.

 

[Travesty]

For me, at least when it comes to Nolan's movies, characterisation really does matter more than aesthetics.

As it should be in everything else. These are stories being told after all.

Yes, but these are movies, too. If this was a novel, it wouldn't matter, but the aesthetics is a VERY important part to a visual medium.

 

[The_Raganork]

I don't know if I'd say "many step," but yeah, the presentation of the character as a whole will lose a few points because of it.

That may sound shallow and petty, but the costumes are part of these characters. Will her costume ruin the character as a whole? Not at all. But I'm not going to ignore it just because they got everything else right (which waits to be seen). I'd rather see them nail everything instead of having to settle for one side.

Fair. I find myself not noticing those sorts of things whilst watching the film. Its when I'm starting to think back to the film I can point out what aesthetically bothered me.

For example: The bad editing in the Harvey/Joker chase. I don't really notice it until I'm thinking back on it, in the moment though, I'm enjoying it.

However to your credit the sonar thing always bothers me.

I really can't see how removing the heels and giving her a cowl would have completely compromised what Nolan was trying to achieve with the character.

The heels could be related to how the suit has come about. If she's a stripper like we've heard then that greatly explains the origins of the suit without having to directly say it.

The lack of cowl...well, that could say a lot of things actually. Just like I mentioned Joker wearing make-up says something about the deliberate actions of the characters, a lack of cowl/concealed identity could speak to the situation Gotham is in, where her identity being known as Catwoman is irrelevant or to the recklessness of the character as a whole, amongst other things.

 

[The_Raganork]

Yes, but these are movies, too. If this was a novel, it wouldn't matter, but the aesthetics is a VERY important part to a visual medium.

True but, neither I or you can say if this aesthetic is universally helpful or Harmful to the character.

YOU don't like it. I don't like it.

Someone loves it, someone thinks its the best looking Catwoman, yet.

Aesthetics will be subjective most of the time, the only thing that can make them more objective is contextual placement.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I really can't see how removing the heels and giving her a cowl would have completely compromised what Nolan was trying to achieve with the character.

In terms of looks or 'realistic background'?

 

[Boom]

Fair. I find myself not noticing those sorts of things whilst watching the film. Its when I'm starting to think back to the film I can point out what aesthetically bothered me.

And that's perfectly fine. Different strokes for different people.

For example: The bad editing in the Harvey/Joker chase. I don't really notice it until I'm thinking back on it, in the moment though, I'm enjoying it.

To this day, the only bad thing I can say about the chase scene is that ****ing SWAT guy .

However to your credit the sonar thing always bothers me.

The heels could be related to how the suit has come about. If she's a stripper like we've heard then that greatly explains the origins of the suit without having to directly say it.

This is going to sound a lot worse than I mean it to, but exposing her cleavage would achieve a similar effect (revealing her roots as a stripper), but without compromising practicality. For the life of me, I have no idea how Hathaway avoided breaking her ankles. There is no practical reason for someone like Catwoman to wear those things. The only reason left is for theatrical purposes. And if she was going for theatricality, then a cowl would've been the better option.

The lack of cowl...well, that could say a lot of things actually. Just like I mentioned Joker wearing make-up says something about the deliberate actions of the characters, a lack of cowl/concealed identity could speak to the situation Gotham is in, where her identity being known as Catwoman is irrelevant or to the recklessness of the character as a whole, amongst other things.

Everyone knows that Selina Kyle is Catwoman in the comic books, yet she continues to wear her costume. Theatricality is still a part of the character. Even if there was no need to conceal her identity, she would wear it for the fun of it. I imagine it's the same rationality behind the domino mask she wears in the film.

 

[Boom]

In terms of looks or 'realistic background'?

Her background. The addition of a cowl doesn't suddenly change who the character is or where she came from. It's just something the character wears for added theatricality.

 

[The_Raganork]

And that's perfectly fine. Different strokes for different people.

Indeed

To this day, the only bad thing I can say about the chase scene is that ****ing SWAT guy .

Haha, that never bothered me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

This is going to sound a lot worse than I mean it to, but exposing her cleavage would achieve a similar effect (revealing her roots as a stripper), but without compromising practicality. For the life of me, I have no idea how Hathaway avoided breaking her ankles. There is no practical reason for someone like Catwoman to wear those things. The only reason left is for theatrical purposes. And if she was going for theatricality, then a cowl would've been the better option.

This is where the "For You" meme comes in.

It could go either way. The heels say the same thing, I don't think they say it better or worse because I haven't seen it yet. Also it's not in this directors sort of taste so, it was probably never going to happen. Perhaps the heels will make her seem more impressive because she can navigate on them. I don't know but I'm not going to rule out that they could have some awesome, cooler than life purpose that gets multiple ideas across.

it's possible, not probable but possible.

Everyone knows that Selina Kyle is Catwoman in the comic books, yet she continues to wear her costume. Theatricality is still a part of the character. Even if there was no need to conceal her identity, she would wear it for the fun of it. I imagine it's the same rationality behind the domino mask she wears in the film.

I'm sure you know what I'm going to say: These aren't comics. The lore is, in fact, different.

there's a purpose for it but we don't know. It could be as superficial as Cowls aren't this Selina's style.

 

[The_Raganork]

Her background. The addition of a cowl doesn't suddenly change who the character is or where she came from. It's just something the character wears for added theatricality.

If she so chooses. This Selina may not.

 

[Two-Face]

I don't mind, mostly because this is a finite adventure. We knew Nolanverse would end. What excites me is not the idea that Catwoman is in a film. It's that Catwoman is in this film.

The character of Catwoman does excite me but unless being used by someone talented it can be dull, stupid and foolish.

I've enjoyed Nolanverse a lot and having Catwoman within the confines of Nolanverse greatly excites me. Even with and BECAUSE of the restrictions.

I will look forward to a new series once I see it's treating these characters with respect and maturely. I'm not anxious to get away from Nolanverse for anything that's willing to be more daring with the characters. Daring is good but first I have to see it's being daring in a correct way.

Nolanverse is daring in it's own way, to pull back this character to a more grounded view was a risk and it's paid off.

So despite my not liking the look of the costume, I am still excited about it and not too bothered by it.

Characterization means the most to me along with story. If you can sell the look of the suit with some lore then you've got me sold.

It would bother me more if we got the A.C. suit and it didn't fit the character at all.

We don't need a Catwoman Begins in TDKR. AC Catsuit is perfect in my opinion and could work in TDKR .The only way I can see Nolan going this route because he liked 1966 Batman.

 

[ComptonTerry90]

We don't need a Catwoman Begins in TDKR. AC Catsuit is perfect in my opinion and could work in TDKR .The only way I can see Nolan going this route because he liked 1966 Batman.

Thats what I was thinking. We dont need a full catwoman origin. The Joker did not have one in TDK, so you fallow the same vein with Catwoman. It wouldnt seem strange in any way,

 

[The_Raganork]

You guys really run with some of the things I say.

I don't recall ever suggesting we needed Catwoman Begins but, her character is rich and I would expect some hint of her backstory to explain the complexities of her character.

Not a whole film but a nice look into who she is and a bit of where she came from. Everything is not BIG ORIGIN STORY or NO ORIGIN STORY

And because you can't see another way doesn't make that fact, it makes it a limitations of your imagination. (don't take that offensively)

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The only way I can see Nolan going this route because he liked 1966 Batman.

This is all it comes down to. It is evidently clear Nolan isn't operating designs on a consistent theme like "realism" or "practicality". Two Face is unrealistic and comic booky, Joker is a whole new game, Catwoman is unrealistic and inspired by the 60's Batman. It's whatever floats his boat. Saying Catwoman is designed so to be more "realistic" is a losing argument.

 

[ComptonTerry90]

You guys really run with some of the things I say.

I don't recall ever suggesting we needed Catwoman Begins but, her character is rich and I would expect some hint of her backstory to explain the complexities of her character.

Not a whole film but a nice look into who she is and a bit of where she came from. Everything is not BIG ORIGIN STORY or NO ORIGIN STORY

And because you can't see another way doesn't make that fact, it makes it a limitations of your imagination. (don't take that offensively)

Im expecting it too, but you said a while back it would be strange if she didnt have an origin because everyone else has had one which is why I bring up the Joker to say it wouldnt be all that strange.
A mystery character is always a good addition

 

[The_Raganork]

I didn't say she'd have an origin cause everyone else had.

 

[ComptonTerry90]

I didn't say she'd have an origin cause everyone else had.

No you didint, but you said it wouldnt fallow the same vein as other characters in this universe

 

[Doctor Who]

I don't want to see her as a stripper if we don't get to see everything.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Her background. The addition of a cowl doesn't suddenly change who the character is or where she came from. It's just something the character wears for added theatricality.

Yeah it definitely doesn't seem like that big a leap, especially if she's already wearing a domino mask / goggles / cat-ears etc. Aesthetically though, they might've refused to bring in another "cowl" as it might look too similar to Batman (though she is using his pod so I don't see why not). It really does go back to the look that Nolan wants for his movie.

Perhaps theatricality is made redundant by the time all of Gotham goes NML?

We don't need a Catwoman Begins in TDKR. AC Catsuit is perfect in my opinion and could work in TDKR .The only way I can see Nolan going this route because he liked 1966 Batman.

I don't want to see a detailed background as to how she became Catwoman etc. but that's only because a character-arc that's the opposite of Harvey Dent's just sounds so much better in these speculations.

But despite that, i wouldn't mind some exploration around how she functions with her gear, who Catwoman is, etc.

Agree that the look is something Nolan's pulling from his hat(s) though. He probably felt like he could do something to bring that look of hers back in style.