The Dark Knight Anybody think Joker vs Batman was a little one sided?

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea this is early Batman, he still has alot to learn and go through. Thats why i think Joker should return, when Batman is more experiance and "complete" we will see his greatest villain return to test him again.
Joker is supposed to own Batman, thats what makes him the greatest villain of all time IMO. What other villain can truly dominate the protaganist like Joker can? Well maybe Green Goblin comes close.

 

[dark_b]

Yea this is early Batman, he still has alot to learn and go through. Thats why i think Joker should return, when Batman is more experiance and "complete" we will see his greatest villain return to test him again.
Joker is supposed to own Batman, thats what makes him the greatest villain of all time IMO. What other villain can truly dominate the protaganist like Joker can? Well maybe Green Goblin comes close.

someone gets it. i think joker could even own lex luthor

people should again watch BB and what Ra's teached bruce aboute criminals.plus there is also the scene in TDK where alfred tells bruce that he doesnt understand this type of people.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea even Ra's hasn't encountered someone like the Joker. That says it all really

 

[metalhead_dave]

I felt that Batman lost his cool too easily in the interrogation scene. I mean he is suppose to be this brilliant man but still he had nothing against The Joker when it came to mind games. He just came off as this violent idiot and really gave The Joker the upperhand.

For some reason, when I see Batman lose his cool in that scene, I feel like Bruce almost sheds the Batman persona. When he's punching the Joker and screaming "Where are they," it's almost like at that point, he reverts to "Private Bruce," but really pissed off and in panic because his love (Rachael) is now in the Joker's death trap. But yeah, I don't see Batman in that scene, just a very desperate and pissed off Bruce Wayne.

Even the boat scenario was ultimately the people of gotham winning over the joker and not bats.

Well he still saved the hostages in the construction zone from the Joker, and figured out that the clowns switched clothes with them.

To me, the boat scenario was very VERY Killing Joke. It was a war of idealogies and in both Killing Joke and the boat scenario, Batman's ideals won out. But Batman still had to catch the Joker, still had to stop him from causing more destruction, and in both Killing Joke and TDK, he did that.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Batman seems alittle flat in the movie. The suit anoyed me as well along with him hanging around the police station and no longer being like a scary entity or a ninja using fear.

He was hanging around the police station because 1) the Joker was there and 2) his relationship with Gordon has obviously become stronger even since the first movie. That relationship is taken straight from the comics, where he also shows up at the police station from time to time.

Him not being as scary as he was in Begins.. I'll give you that much, and the new suit definitely made him less intimidating. However, he wasn't any less ninja-like. For example, the way he just disappears at the bank and on the rooftop. The way he gets the drop on the Joker and the goons at the party without them seeing him.. and he way he brutally took out Maroni's goons at the nightclub. These things all established the ninja-like nature of Batman, IMO.

 

[RoboAmish]

The Joker owned Batman in the movie because he'd never encountered a villain like him before. It was after all, the start of their complex relationship. The Joker will more than likely always have the edge over Batman, because Bats physical dominance is pretty much useless when dealing with a sadist, and mentally Joker will always have the upper hand due to his willingness to do anything in order to prove a point to Batman. The Joker, arguably, understands and accepts the Batman persona more than Wayne himself. He'll always own Bats, but Batman can still evolve but The Joker is one villain who always has an advantage over him

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think people are forgetting this is still Batman early in his career. I'm not entirely sure how long the timeline is between Bruce becoming Batman and the events of TDK but I 'm guessing its no more than 2 years tops.

This is still rookie Batman and his gonna make mistakes.

What he says. Well, this is batman's first encounter with the joker and we are meant to believe that the joker is so chaotic, crazy, out of the box that caught everyone off guard. If batman could understand him from the get go, then TDK would have ended much sooner.

In the end though you can see Batman starting to figure the joker out when he asks from Gordon to let him go first in the unfinished skyscraper. "With the joker its never simple"

So you see, the fact that nobody could really figure him out and stop him, the fact that the mob was more afraid of him than batman and his chilling "why so serious" theme made the joker look like the ultimate evil. Scarecrow and Ras look so benign in comparison simply because their motives and methods are easily understood......Well....its also because their face isnt rotting with makeup!

 

[Mr. Earle]

someone gets it. i think joker could even own lex luthor

people should again watch BB and what Ra's teached bruce aboute criminals.plus there is also the scene in TDK where alfred tells bruce that he doesnt understand this type of people.

Ras: "You traveled the world to understand the criminal mind. But...a criminal is not complicated."

Then the joker appears.

*Ras nukes Gotham from orbit 3 times just to be sure. God will sort out his own*

Having said all that, i loved a jokerized text from a magazine where it refers to Scarecrow and Ras and the joker has written "amateurs" next to their names. Hahahahaha!

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I think Maroni sums it up best " We're wise to your act, you have rules. The Joker? He's got no rules. No one is gonna cross him for you."

 

[Mr. Earle]

For some reason, when I see Batman lose his cool in that scene, I feel like Bruce almost sheds the Batman persona. When he's punching the Joker and screaming "Where are they," it's almost like at that point, he reverts to "Private Bruce," but really pissed off and in panic because his love (Rachael) is now in the Joker's death trap. But yeah, I don't see Batman in that scene, just a very desperate and pissed off Bruce Wayne.

Well, first of all, its his first encounter with the man and Nolan mostly wants to show us how the joker isnt the normal villain that will crack after a few punches. Hell, he enjoys them! So batman tried his old tricks on him and they didnt work. So next time he will try mind games. And you know, it was kinda obvious that the joker was out of his mind and he wouldnt give Rachel's location to Batman if he didnt want to. So i didnt see angry bruce there. I saw out of control Batman. Nolan didnt kill Barbara, Robin, etc to make him lose control, he had Rachel kidnapped instead. So its a classic "batman loses control with the joker moment". Case in point: Gordon saying "he is in control" during the interrogation scene, trying to reassure himself and the others that batman isnt going to eat the joker alive.

Well he still saved the hostages in the construction zone from the Joker, and figured out that the clowns switched clothes with them.

To me, the boat scenario was very VERY Killing Joke. It was a war of idealogies and in both Killing Joke and the boat scenario, Batman's ideals won out. But Batman still had to catch the Joker, still had to stop him from causing more destruction, and in both Killing Joke and TDK, he did that.

Dont forget that the joker would have blown up both barges had it not been for batman.

 

[Mr. Earle]

He was hanging around the police station because 1) the Joker was there and 2) his relationship with Gordon has obviously become stronger even since the first movie. That relationship is taken straight from the comics, where he also shows up at the police station from time to time.

Him not being as scary as he was in Begins.. I'll give you that much, and the new suit definitely made him less intimidating. However, he wasn't any less ninja-like. For example, the way he just disappears at the bank and on the rooftop. The way he gets the drop on the Joker and the goons at the party without them seeing him.. and he way he brutally took out Maroni's goons at the nightclub. These things all established the ninja-like nature of Batman, IMO.

Yes ok, but really, people werent so scared of him as in BB. Maroni should have **** himself when batman grabbed him, not because he broke his legs (which should happen anyways. It was too awesome!). but batman should have been more mysterious, cloaking himself with the cape when talking to Gordon, etc. And even though having the lights up helps us enjoy the interrogation scene more, it was a damn mistake!

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I think when he was interrogating Maroni he was just so desperate he didn't really care about being mysterious. It isn't a game no more so there is no need of theatrics and what not. I could just sense the desperation in his voice "WHERE IS HE!!!"

 

[baerrtt]

When has the Joker (written at his best) NOT owned or pushed Batman, often depicted as one of the smartest comic book heroes, psychologically?

THE KILLING JOKE, ARKHAM ASYLUM, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, HUSH and countless other stories etc. Joker has always pushed his buttons to the point where you scarily get the impression that the normally calm and collected Dark Knight doesn't have full control(emotionally) in certain situations.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea thats why he is the greatest villain of all time IMO. he can just get under the skin of Batman so easily. obviously he can't match him physically but he doesn't need to.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think when he was interrogating Maroni he was just so desperate he didn't really care about being mysterious. It isn't a game no more so there is no need of theatrics and what not. I could just sense the desperation in his voice "WHERE IS HE!!!"

I dont think that he skipped or ignored his theatrics. Its just that Nolan had the mob "get wise on his act" (meaning that they now know that he isnt a monster) so batman had to break his legs to get him to talk. Awesome as it was to watch, if you re gonna break legs, you might as well wear your jeans. Even if the new suit doesnt make him look like a creature, but more of a SWAT officer, people should always fear him and think he is some kind of creature. Lets be honest here, whatever the suit, the dude's chin is uncovered giving him out. So you suspend your desbelief and believe that Gothamites are scared ****less when someone simply says his name.

Sorry Nolan, but
1) No mention of Bruce's parents in TDK
2) Batman is now a dude in a costume and not "OMFG, i **** my pants, what is that thing flying, he grabbed me from the air, i want my mom"
are my two biggest problems with TDK.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think his parents grave will deffs be in the third. infact i think Nolan purposly left them out untill the third. I think the theme will be guilt and redemption, the guilt of not saving Rachel or Harvey could bring back the feelings of guilt over his parents death, a visit to their grave to ask forgivness and advice would be appropriate here. then at the end when he is redeemed another visit, this time a happier one, to re-iterate his vow to protect the city.

 

[JL Unlimited]

The only objectable thing that nevertheless I understood totally to be necessary was the passengers not being able to blow up the other boat. In real life, that would have happened. But it was nevertheless convincing and making a point.

Gonna take this thread on a tangent.

After seeing TDK the first time, I thought the same thing and that the ferry scene was unrealistic (though necessary) and that one of the boats would have blew up the other in real life. I did some researching and I found an interesting article that analyzed that whole scene psychologically and made some good arguments that the outcome may actually happen in the real world.

Here's a link if you're interested:

http://www.quantitativepeace.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight.html

 

[chamber-music]

Sorry Nolan, but
1) No mention of Bruce's parents in TDK
2) Batman is now a dude in a costume and not "OMFG, i **** my pants, what is that thing flying, he grabbed me from the air, i want my mom"
are my two biggest problems with TDK.

1) I don't think Bruces parents need to be mentioned in every movie. BB dealt alot with his parents death, Bruce had other things to focus on like Rachel, Joker and Dent.

I'm sure now that everyones against him he may visit his parents grave.

2)Criminals are gonna be scared of Batman again now because they think his a homicidal murder and not that different from the Joker. Now that they think Batman is willing to kill people he will be a hell of a lot more scary to the public.

 

[Mr. Earle]

2)Criminals are gonna be scared of Batman again now because they think his a homicidal murder and not that different from the Joker. Now that they think Batman is willing to kill people he will be a hell of a lot more scary to the public.

Maybe they will, but its not the why batman is supposed to be feared.

He isnt feared because he will bust you up, break your leg or murder you. He is scary because of his mysterious and secret profile, his intimidating suit and his general kickassery. Criminals giving him supernatural attributes ("i heard he can fly", "i heard he can disapperar") because of all that makes him even more intimidating. The real batman doesnt need to break your leg to make you squeal. He just stares at you, or maybe even shouts. Thats all he has to do.

There were many instances in TDK in which it was obvious that people were on to him, but i will focus on Maroni's interrogation. Maroni should have been scared to death but he would try to act cool and all (but we, the audience would know that he is scared to death). When batman asks him about the joker he honestly doesnt know, so batman in his desperation throws him off the balcony and breaks his leg. Then Maroni stops pretending to be cool and squeals "i dont know, he found us", etc....

 

[El Payaso]

I think people are forgetting this is still Batman early in his career. I'm not entirely sure how long the timeline is between Bruce becoming Batman and the events of TDK but I 'm guessing its no more than 2 years tops.

This is still rookie Batman and his gonna make mistakes.

Then again Joker is as (or more) amateurish being the Joker.

For some reason, when I see Batman lose his cool in that scene, I feel like Bruce almost sheds the Batman persona. When he's punching the Joker and screaming "Where are they," it's almost like at that point, he reverts to "Private Bruce," but really pissed off and in panic because his love (Rachael) is now in the Joker's death trap. But yeah, I don't see Batman in that scene, just a very desperate and pissed off Bruce Wayne.

That scene is perfect showing that Joker wins simply because he doesn't care for people. The moment Batman feels for Rachel, he's owned. Joker kidnaps Rachel and Batman completely loses it. That's why I think Joker was so happy of being phisically pounished: every punch of Batman meant he was closer to become a crazy man out of rage. One bad day can turn you into a crazy guy.

To me, the boat scenario was very VERY Killing Joke. It was a war of idealogies and in both Killing Joke and the boat scenario, Batman's ideals won out. But Batman still had to catch the Joker, still had to stop him from causing more destruction, and in both Killing Joke and TDK, he did that.

That's the tricky thing. Ultimately people didn't detonate the otehr boat's bomb simply because it's written that way. But it is highly questionable if the average citizen would sacrifice his life just to make a point phostumously.

Even so, the movie stablishes that Harvey Dent is the living proof of Joker's points.

The Joker owned Batman in the movie because he'd never encountered a villain like him before. It was after all, the start of their complex relationship.

The same thing goes the other way around. Joker never encountered a man like Batman before. And for him it was also "the beginning of a long friendship."

The Joker will more than likely always have the edge over Batman, because Bats physical dominance is pretty much useless when dealing with a sadist, and mentally Joker will always have the upper hand due to his willingness to do anything in order to prove a point to Batman. The Joker, arguably, understands and accepts the Batman persona more than Wayne himself. He'll always own Bats, but Batman can still evolve but The Joker is one villain who always has an advantage over him

 

[Greatwun]

Batman had the upper hand in BB so I guess it kinda makes sense to give the joker only a little more power just so Batman can regain control in the next one.

 

[The Joker]

Batman had the upper hand in BB

Not really. He was gassed by Scarecrow and put out of action for several days, and had his mansion burned down by Ra's.

 

[El Payaso]

Not really. He was gassed by Scarecrow and put out of action for several days, and had his mansion burned down by Ra's.

I'd say Ra's ownage was more like having Batman "not saving him." Ra's made Batman to come closer of taking a life, even when indirectly. In TDK, he could have shouted to Joker the same as he was falling "You know, Joke, I don't have to save you" all the same, but he did save him. He knew it was his duty.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I'd say Ra's ownage was more like having Batman "not saving him." Ra's made Batman to come closer of taking a life, even when indirectly. In TDK, he could have shouted to Joker the same as he was falling "You know, Joke, I don't have to save you" all the same, but he did save him. He knew it was his duty.

well he did throw him off the edge so he would have killed him had he not saved him.

After all this lecture on this aspect of morality, Ras' and Dent's deaths seem really controversial while the death of the ninjas when Bruce was trying to escape was simply DESPICABLE!

 

[metalhead_dave]

After all this lecture on this aspect of morality, Ras' and Dent's deaths seem really controversial while the death of the ninjas when Bruce was trying to escape was simply DESPICABLE!

Why? There's nothing wrong with it. I can recall times where Batman in the comics has gone drastic to save his own ass which usually results in collateral damage like death. Most of em actually have to do with blowing up Ras's bases of operation actually.