Comics ASM #568 spoilers New ways to die starts here...

[Miken Ayers]

You really DO have a warped view on things, don't you?

Being obnoxious and eccentric to get your way is NOT the way to go about things. Spider-Girl fans were not being obnoxious or eccentric. They put their message out in a mature, well-planned out way and showed just how dedicated to the character and book they are.

You on the other hand are whining, complaining, and taking every chance you can to put down the book and those that are enjoying it, oftentimes lately by (inaccurately) spoiling a book for everyone in your own biased view in attempt to convince other people not to buy it, in hopes that maybe Marvel will somehow get sick enough of your crying that they'll suddenly say "ALRIGHT! WE'LL CHANGE IT BACK, OKAY? Just PLEASE stop crying!"


...that ain't gonna happen, buddy.

Only thing you're going to be seen as when you react that way is someone who didn't get their way with someone else's character and who's gonna cry about it, like a little baby wanting its bottle, until you get it. You'll just be one of those people from the internet who are "angry over a comic book".

I'm not angry. Actually that last post was nothing more than a nod to my friend Matt Adler who was part of that Spider-Girl campaign. You only think I'm angry and obsessive since you only know me on a board discussing a comic. However it's the likes of you that seems to be getting worked up over posts that are basically forgotten by me till the next time I'm online.

 

[iloveclones]

I

It’s not that I don’t think these questions won’t be answered sometime down the road, iloveclones. As you said, question #28 is being addressed in the upcoming issue, as would question #13 I imagine. However, it's not that there are mystery related subplots, it’s that there has been far too many of them created and unanswered that have accumulated in such a short period of and are being piled up on top with new ones.

It’s sort of like that poem by Shel Silverstein about the girl who refused to take the garbage out and it just kept piling up higher and higher until eventually the garbage collapsed on just on her put across the entire U.S. Nothing wrong with having some mysteries as part of your story, but the longer you keep letting them accumulate, the more rushed the solutions will become.

The X-Men franchise various questions regarding Apocalpse and the Twelve is a case in point, as when Marvel finally got around to this, the identity of the member in some cases contradicted the clues that were well established. Another was the initial Hobgoblin arc in which the mystery dragged on longer than was necessary and it was revealed that he was Ned Leeds--despite the fact that Ned Leeds had already been killed in the Spider-Man vs. Wolverine one shot.

Joe Quesada and Marvel are telling us the answers are coming, that they'll all be addressed by the time Amazing Spider-Man #600 comes around. I just wonder, considering the aftermath of One More Day, whether or not Marvel is stretching it out for far longer than necessary.

I get what you're saying. In the end, like most things, it depends on your tastes. Some of the examples that you mentioned were good ones. I so lost interest in Apocalypse, that I'm not even sure I know the whole mystery. And I'm pretty sure I have the issues!!?!

But for Spidey, it kind of knocked me for a loop when you said 8 months. I actually had to count to see if you were right. But see, one fact, and two outlooks. You obviously have not been enjoying (or reading, thus not enjoying) Amazing, so 8 months seems like an eternity to clear up these nagging questions. I have liked it. Immensely, at times. So I see that as more of a "Time flies when you're having fun" statement. So I really haven't dwelled on what you see as garbage piling up. Because I still see them as great opportunities.

 

[Styleshift]

F that. Ever since some fans paid money out of their pocket to advertise in Previews for Spider-Girl that SUPPOSEDLY gave it a relaunch which at the time was a stay of execution. That raised the bar for comic fans. Reading something you like and not reading what you dislike is no longer enough. You gotta be obnoxious or eccentric to get your way. And your aggressiveness can't slow down since fans on the other side have the same rights and capabilities as you.

yeah I meant NEW WAYS TO DIE.
I would be a big hypocrite if I said BND....don't you think? lol *assuming you've read my posts about New ways to die, you would know I'm praising it, but not the direction.*

 

[Styleshift]

You really DO have a warped view on things, don't you?

Being obnoxious and eccentric to get your way is NOT the way to go about things. Spider-Girl fans were not being obnoxious or eccentric. They put their message out in a mature, well-planned out way and showed just how dedicated to the character and book they are.

You on the other hand are whining, complaining, and taking every chance you can to put down the book and those that are enjoying it, oftentimes lately by (inaccurately) spoiling a book for everyone in your own biased view in attempt to convince other people not to buy it, in hopes that maybe Marvel will somehow get sick enough of your crying that they'll suddenly say "ALRIGHT! WE'LL CHANGE IT BACK, OKAY? Just PLEASE stop crying!"


...that ain't gonna happen, buddy.

Only thing you're going to be seen as when you react that way is someone who didn't get their way with someone else's character and who's gonna cry about it, like a little baby wanting its bottle, until you get it. You'll just be one of those people from the internet who are "angry over a comic book".

We both have different views and Opinions of the new status quo.
But Imdaly is completely right Miken....

I've seen PLENTY of stupid posts, like "DIE QUESEDA, DIE!" (and no thats not translated to "the" ) all over the internet, and thats not the way to get a point across.
only bringing up negative points will make you seem biased, same goes with completely praising the new status quo. but I don't think they mind.

sure Queseda has screwed spidey over in just a couple of years in unimaginable ways with his suggestions and plans.

but he's given alot of great things to marvel too. I still plan on calling him joephisto however.

I;m really starting to feel like benedict arnold here...

but, my point is lets all be fair. because we've seen worse than BND. We all need to remember this is Marvel's character.

so they can turn him into one of the village people if they want.
all we can do is voice our opinions...continue reading YMCA spidey or move on. buy or don't buy....marvel will listen when there is a hole in their pocket.

There are plenty of fans who have collected for YEARS like farmernudie, same goes with fans jumping back on board because they didn't like what JMS is doing. so it will be interesting to see where all of this goes.

 

[kainedamo]

There's an update on the sales in the 'sales are dropping celebration fun time' thread.

 

[USMC]

And honestly, there's no reason for that to happen, because the quality in the current books are much better than they were under JMS.

Uh, BND stories haven't been anything to run home about. They're completely mediocre. The only ray of light I've seen is that Peter's written more lighthearted again like the old days... but aside from that, the stories aren't all that exceptional (they're not dreadful, of course... but just "meh"). And besides Pete being more fun, he's STILL also written as an inexperienced child, which is not okay IMO. I'm also not cool with Aunt May being reverted back to her "old biddy" stage. It's so incredibly reminiscent of the way she was written after being brought back from the Clone Sage before JMS jumped on board.

Until Sins Past and after, JMS actually delved deep into the characters and progressed them without changing their motivations and core essence. He posed questions that no one ever did and was able to write a Peter Parker & Mary Jane relationship into a mature, progressive style that most readers loved to see.

Again, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that any of these new writers have done in regards to a "single Peter being better than a married one". It simply has not been a factor within the last 8 months.

And curious that Dan Slott, or anyone else, has failed to address that particular point here or anywhere else.

 

[Themanofbat]

Again, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that any of these new writers have done in regards to a "single Peter being better than a married one". It simply has not been a factor within the last 8 months.

And curious that Dan Slott, or anyone else, has failed to address that particular point here or anywhere else.

There's no need for the "necessary" tales of a single Peter versus a married one...

Marvel has wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, because they believe that will attribute to the longevity of the character, so it's not like we're going to see these "magical single stories"... I think people would flip to see Peter dating so early on... but what we are seeing are fun Spider-Man stories with sub-plots going on through the books to make you want to come back... it's how comics used to be, and I have no problems with that... sure, some of the tales have been lackluster, but they have been "fun" to read imo. Yes, these stories could have been told with a "married Spider-Man", but Marvel wants a "single Spider-Man"... not for your benefit nor mine, but for the generations of Spider-Readers that will (hopefully) be reading the books when we're both dead in the ground.

Mike

 

[USMC]

Really? In what way? I'm truly curious.

Although I did not care for the direction, having Peter move on and get work as a teacher showed tremendous maturity. He's a scientific genius, and it is unrealistic for him to be a scientist like Reed Richards, for example. That's not Spidey's style... but having him teach young people certainly was.

And his relationship with May matured beyond belief, once she discovered his secret. Peter was written as a man, not a child.

Granted, things changed, IMO, once Sins Past hit the stands... but from what I understand, JMS started losing control over what and how he was allowed to write from then on out because of the upcoming "marriage agenda" from the top. His plans for Sins Past and Morlun and BiB, etc were changed because of OMD. Not giving him a freebie, but them's the facts.

Stilted, overwrought dialogue IMHO. I read JMS for years, and maybe smiled once or twice, but I can't remember ever laughing out loud at any scene he wrote. If you want good jokes check out Joe Kelly's 'Deadpool'. Now, Kelly coming on to Spider-Man... I'm excited about that.

I agree with that. I enjoyed a more mature well written Peter very much, but I did miss the wise-cracking Peter, too. JMS wasn't able to find a hppy medium with that.

And then he and Joe Quesada split them up in 'One More Day'.... you do know this guy you're defending, is one of the chief architects of that story, right? And that wasn't the first time they split up under JMS, actually. The Dr Doom airport issue was one of my favorite JMS issues, but let's not fool ourselves. Howard Mackie brought them back together in his last work, that ASM annual where MJ came back from that stupid storyline where she was kidnapped and presumed dead. JMS before coming on-board, requested MJ be absent from the book. So very abruptly and awkwardly, as soon as MJ returned from her kidnapping, she and Peter seperated.

JMS didn't want MJ around in the beginning, because he was trying to concentrate on repairing what Mackie did with Peter. I didn't find it abrupt or awkward at all... a major thing just happened to MJ because of Peter being Spider-Man, and she needed a break. I found it very natural, and I think JMS was able to separate the two in a way that at least made logical sense, unlike the travesty of OMD. I want nothing more than a married Peter Parker, but if they had split them up in OMD in a way that made sense, than I would probably be buying Spider-Man right now.

Whew! Finally! An actual story. I was wondering if this was going someplace. Personally, I liked the suspense of Morlun hunting him and the epic JRJr-drawn battle in one of the issues, but to me that story was at best a B- or a C+, because... (a) Ezekial was and will always remain a crappy character with no real explanation that doesn't come off as contrived or incoherent... (b) it will always stick in my mind as that arc that introduced that whole "Spider-Man wasn't created by a random accident, but a pre-destined magical occurance, dictated by some animal totem crap that is passed down over the generations" BS (which personally I find much worse than any retcons that have been delivered in BND) and... (c) a bad guy should be able to sell himself. He doesn't need Spidey saying, as he did about Morlun, "that's the hardest I've ever been hit!" or "I've never been so scared!" I mean, c'mon...

The problem here is that JMS never intended the mystical origin to replace the real one. He only posed the question, which I thought was fresh and a cool way to do it, rather than some stupid "Chapter One" crap. JMS successfully pulled it off, before the Other reared it's ugly head.

Exploitative, awful dreck. I admire what the tribute book tried to accomplish, but a fictional character like Spider-Man felt truly out of place in a real-time tragedy where thousands of real people had just died. Don't even get me started on Dr Doom crying.

I'm one of the few people that agree. The 9/11 issue was crap, IMO. Bravo for Marvel to do it at that time, though. I thought their heart was in the right place, but I could have done without the villains being there... THAT was awkward.

I'll give you this one. He did write Aunt May well (her dressing in Iron-Man armor aside, unless that was one of the other writers). But DeMatties wrote her even better, and ASM #400 will always be a better issue than the JMS-written one where she finds out the truth a second time. She should never have come back to begin with, but I can't blame JMS for that.

ASM #400 was Amazing and one of my top 10 issues. But I still think JMS' May far surpassed all of that.

Uh, what? Moving to Avengers Mansion, was a huge "jump the shark" moment for Spider-Man. But hey, he's jumped around fifty, so who is even counting anymore?

Agreed, I never like Spidey joining the Avengers... and moving into the mansion was beyond stupid.

Something that's rebooted all that organic webshooter, unmasked, mystical totem, "other", Gwen Stacy knocked-up garbage?

According to TPTB, aside from the Webshooters, ALL of the other things still happened. The unmasking happened. The Other happened (they've mentioned his new powers are still around and may be addressed later on), Gwen still did the dirty, and the Goblin twins still exist. So try again.

 

[USMC]

There's no need for the "necessary" tales of a single Peter versus a married one...

Marvel has wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, because they believe that will attribute to the longevity of the character, so it's not like we're going to see these "magical single stories"... I think people would flip to see Peter dating so early on... but what we are seeing are fun Spider-Man stories with sub-plots going on through the books to make you want to come back... it's how comics used to be, and I have no problems with that... sure, some of the tales have been lackluster, but they have been "fun" to read imo. Yes, these stories could have been told with a "married Spider-Man", but Marvel wants a "single Spider-Man"... not for your benefit nor mine, but for the generations of Spider-Readers that will (hopefully) be reading the books when we're both dead in the ground.

Mike

It's taken me time, but I am fine with a single Spidey. Yes, I would LOVE MJ and Peter to be married, as I think the last 20 years have established that it should be that way... the same way people look at Reed and Sue, or Lois and Clark, etc. I just don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's been shown time and time again that the right writer can write a married Spider-Man.

But that's not the point, as you've shown. Marvel wants a single Spidey, and I can certainly understand that. It's a business, and if I were running it I would want whats best in the long run. Marvel feels a single Pete is better in the long run. I disagree. I feel good writers are whats best for Spider-Man... now, months from now, years from now; married or single.

I know how I am, I love Spidey too much to never buy again. I was tempted today to go pick up NWTD, as a matter of fact.

I think my problem really rests on, what I feel, is Joe Q's way of doing things. I would have had less of a problem with OMD if it had just made some kind of sense. I felt Peter, MJ, and May were just written so horribly and against who they had been previously established as in order to serve an agenda from TPTB. Divorce would have worked better, or some kind of annulment, or something, lol. MJ simply telling Peter "I can't do this anymore" would have sat better with me, as that is a logical situation that can and does happen to married people. Even MJ being the one that was shot and Peter doing the deal with Mephisto to save HER would have made more sense to me.

I'm just kind of tired of it. Harry coming back was not needed at all, and they've gone nowhere with it yet. The glaring holes in continuity do not sit well with me either, as I've always enjoyed Spidey for doing a pretty good job of respecting continuity (for the most part, anyway)... and I am a continuity ****e, lol. t: And I don't enjoy the perceived "rub it in our faces" easter eggs about the marriage, the devil's deal, the angry internet fans, etc. If it's a Brand New Day, then stop it with the past references... I don't think it's helping any unhappy fan with getting them back on board.

In any case, I do like the more light hearted feel of the book and Peter wisecracking again. But so far, that's it.

Maybe when more questions get answered down the road (this time next year, apparently? ) I'll be ready to buy my favorite book again...

 

[Miken Ayers]

We both have different views and Opinions of the new status quo.
But Imdaly is completely right Miken....

I've seen PLENTY of stupid posts, like "DIE QUESEDA, DIE!" (and no thats not translated to "the" ) all over the internet, and thats not the way to get a point across.
only bringing up negative points will make you seem biased, same goes with completely praising the new status quo. but I don't think they mind.

sure Queseda has screwed spidey over in just a couple of years in unimaginable ways with his suggestions and plans.

but he's given alot of great things to marvel too. I still plan on calling him joephisto however.

I;m really starting to feel like benedict arnold here...

but, my point is lets all be fair. because we've seen worse than BND. We all need to remember this is Marvel's character.

so they can turn him into one of the village people if they want.
all we can do is voice our opinions...continue reading YMCA spidey or move on. buy or don't buy....marvel will listen when there is a hole in their pocket.

There are plenty of fans who have collected for YEARS like farmernudie, same goes with fans jumping back on board because they didn't like what JMS is doing. so it will be interesting to see where all of this goes.

I never once called for anyone's death. With the good Joe's done and as far as me and superheroes goes, if you ruin Spider-Man that overshadows everything. It also becomes all I wanna talk about on comic boards to the point I do what I can to undermine it. This Wed I'll read 569 twice to keep it fresh in my head, AND save my opinions till the end. That's all I'm doing for Slott though.

 

[Styleshift]

I never once called for anyone's death. With the good Joe's done and as far as me and superheroes goes, if you ruin Spider-Man that overshadows everything. It also becomes all I wanna talk about on comic boards to the point I do what I can to undermine it. This Wed I'll read 569 twice to keep it fresh in my head, AND save my opinions till the end. That's all I'm doing for Slott though.

lol calm down buddy, I didn't say YOU said that.
I was just saying the way your posts are sometimes...you might fall into that category to the eyes of marvel. sorry if i offended you.

 

[Styleshift]

Although I did not care for the direction, having Peter move on and get work as a teacher showed tremendous maturity. He's a scientific genius, and it is unrealistic for him to be a scientist like Reed Richards, for example. That's not Spidey's style... but having him teach young people certainly was.

And his relationship with May matured beyond belief, once she discovered his secret. Peter was written as a man, not a child.

I COMPLETELY agree with this.
seriously, I couldn't agree more....

I wish Marvel would have continued with this direction...a reboot wasn't necessary just yet.
how bout they cross the bridge when they actually get to it? fans didn't want the destruction of the marriage.

 

[kguillou]

Here's my problem, its true, Marvel HAS wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, so why then didnt marvel just get rid of it then as opposed to 20 years later?? If marvel hated the marriage so bad then why did they have countless writers waste their time trying to write it. JMS wasted 6 years of his life trying to reinvigorate the marriage between Pete and MJ, but all along Quesada knew he was going to retcon it somehow? That's devious man. If marvel wanted the marriage gone so badly then they should have destroyed it years ago instead of teasing us for 20 years.

 

[Miken Ayers]

lol calm down buddy, I didn't say YOU said that.
I was just saying the way your posts are sometimes...you might fall into that category to the eyes of marvel. sorry if i offended you.

Not offended or even upset. Just wanted to clear that up before someone else read the post and says I want Quesada dead. If Marvel staff's gonna hate me, that's fine as long as it's for stuff I actually did or said.

 

[Styleshift]

Here's my problem, its true, Marvel HAS wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, so why then didnt marvel just get rid of it then as opposed to 20 years later?? If marvel hated the marriage so bad then why did they have countless writers waste their time trying to write it. JMS wasted 6 years of his life trying to reinvigorate the marriage between Pete and MJ, but all along Quesada knew he was going to retcon it somehow? That's devious man. If marvel wanted the marriage gone so badly then they should have destroyed it years ago instead of teasing us for 20 years.

They were afraid of fans dropping the book back than and for good reason.
during those times it was hard for every comic company out there.

just think what would have happened if Marvel tried this stunt back in the day....

My guess is that they feel they feel they are stable enough to drop the retcon bomb and go where ever they want with Spidey.

I mean its not hard to realize these guys are coming straight off the heels of hot sales that the events provided. marvel can afford to take a hit at this point in the game.

 

[Themanofbat]

Here's my problem, its true, Marvel HAS wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, so why then didnt marvel just get rid of it then as opposed to 20 years later?? If marvel hated the marriage so bad then why did they have countless writers waste their time trying to write it. JMS wasted 6 years of his life trying to reinvigorate the marriage between Pete and MJ, but all along Quesada knew he was going to retcon it somehow? That's devious man. If marvel wanted the marriage gone so badly then they should have destroyed it years ago instead of teasing us for 20 years.

Well, back in 1994, the solution was the Clone Saga, and people had a problem with the fact that the Peter Parker they had been reading since ASM #150 had been a clone... and many people bolted from the book (the industry was also taking a nosedive around the same time).

And I believe that JMS knew at the end of his run was going to culminate into the ending of the marriage... he wrote a story that would have made that work... except it took away ALL continuity from ASM #96-98 onward, including Sins Past as well as the death of Gwen... which was something JQ felt strongly against (the latter, I would presume).

JMS told the stories he wanted knowing full well what was going to happen...

 

[Miken Ayers]

They were afraid of fans dropping the book back than and for good reason.
during those times it was hard for every comic company out there.

just think what would have happened if Marvel tried this stunt back in the day....

My guess is that they feel they feel they are stable enough to drop the retcon bomb and go where ever they want with Spidey.

Since JMS had a fanbase before Spider-Man with Babylon 5 and other movies and shows and generated one with Rising Stars, I wouldn't be surprised if he was only put on the book to create a sales cushion for Joe's ambitions.

 

[USMC]

If marvel wanted the marriage gone so badly then they should have destroyed it years ago instead of teasing us for 20 years.

Agreed. Part of me feels the whole "Marvel's ALWAYS wanted this" is complete bull-****. Marvel's always wanted SALES. That's it. They could have ended it anytime they wanted to.

I really think the marriage itself just became Marvel's scapegoat for piss poor writing.

 

[imdaly]

Here's my problem, its true, Marvel HAS wanted a single Peter Parker since 1993, so why then didnt marvel just get rid of it then as opposed to 20 years later?? If marvel hated the marriage so bad then why did they have countless writers waste their time trying to write it. JMS wasted 6 years of his life trying to reinvigorate the marriage between Pete and MJ, but all along Quesada knew he was going to retcon it somehow? That's devious man. If marvel wanted the marriage gone so badly then they should have destroyed it years ago instead of teasing us for 20 years.

They did try. That was the point of the Clone Saga, and MJ being "killed" on the plane, etc.

 

[Miken Ayers]

They did try. That was the point of the Clone Saga, and MJ being "killed" on the plane, etc.

And why'd she keep coming back?

 

[Dan_Slott]

This Wed I'll read 569 twice to keep it fresh in my head, AND save my opinions till the end. That's all I'm doing for Slott though.

That's all I ask, sir.
You wanna knock it, go ahead and knock it. But if you could just wait until other people have had a chance to read it first, that'd be aces.
And, like I've said, that's all I'm really asking for.
Thanks again for that.
ttyl
Dan

 

[kguillou]

Originally posted by Miken Ayers

And why'd she keep coming back?

^^EXACTLY!! She kept coming back. Why did marvel let JMS bring her and Peter back together when they had the perfect opportunity to end it between the two ( although ASM #50, where the two reunite is one of my favorite JMS issues, very well-written).

 

[Styleshift]

^^EXACTLY!! She kept coming back. Why did marvel let JMS bring her and Peter back together when they had the perfect opportunity to end it between the two ( although ASM #50, where the two reunite is one of my favorite JMS issues, very well-written).

Because Pete wasn't really single during the seperation.
They didn't want to divorce him, and having pete cheat or end up in another love triangle would just out rage fans even more than his dealing with the devil.

on another note....why does Dan Slott only reply to Miken...
I mean...I'm the one with the HUGE NADS! t: (thats the last time...I promise lol)

 

[Miken Ayers]

Because Pete wasn't really single during the seperation.
They didn't want to divorce him, and having pete cheat or end up in another love triangle would just out rage fans even more than his dealing with the devil.

on another note....why does Dan Slott only reply to Miken...
I mean...I'm the one with the HUGE NADS! t: (thats the last time...I promise lol)

Oh ****! I thought I was the only one that could see him. I'm not crazy!

 

[Themanofbat]

I mean...I'm the one with the HUGE NADS! t: (thats the last time...I promise lol)

You should put a Huge Nads comment in your title under your user name for all to know and see...