Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 1

[Havok83]

Franklin has been a kid since the 60's. So in Marvel Time she's probably only been "reformed" for 3 years.

And how many times now has Magneto "reformed"? Three? Four? I believe in redemption. I also believe in going "too far". In my opinion Magneto and Emma went too far.

Magneto's reformed once before and that was circa UXM 200 when Xavier left and made him headmaster of the school. This is his second stint as a hero.. He doesnt have to stay with the X-men, fight along their side and do good, but he chooses to. Emma's main problem is that she can be a word that rhymes with witch, but ultimately she does care about mutantkind and she genuinely fights with the X-men bc she's passionate about making a difference.

Most characters with as much power as these two either do one of 2 choices. Be a villian or be a hero. There isnt often middle ground. If the X-men were that stubborn, they wouldnt have given them a shot at redemption and theres a good chance, they'd still be villians. Luckily that isnt the case. Its funny in this thread Scott got accused of being unforgiven not too long ago. If he truly was, then these two wouldnt be there.

 

[Franklin Richards]

How much jail time has Magneto served? Or Emma for the people she's murdered? How have they paid for their crimes in any way? Outcast? Hell all the mutants have paid that price. Magneto went on trial. Big whup. He never paid for his crimes. Saved the world? That's called Tuesday in the Marvel Universe for heroes.

Rogue and Hawkeye are about as far as I'll go in the redemption department. Mass murderers and brain rapists go a little far for me.


Emma killed Butter Rum and Kitty Pride thinks she's evil. That's enough for me.

 

[Havok83]

How much jail time has Magneto served? Or Emma for the people she's murdered? How have they paid for their crimes in any way? Outcast? Hell all the mutants have paid that price. Magneto went on trial. Big whup. He never paid for his crimes. Saved the world? That's called Tuesday in the Marvel Universe for heroes.

Rogue and Hawkeye are about as far as I'll go in the redemption department. Mass murderers and brain rapists go a little far for me.


Emma killed Butter Rum and Kitty Pride thinks she's evil. That's enough for me.

No neither has done any jailtime. Emma isnt a criminal in the eyes of the law. I dont beleive anything she did while in the Hellfire Club has ever been made public. She's hurt the X-men and done things on the side, but to the rest of the world (probably including the Avengers), she was simply a member of a high society wealthy club. Unlike Magneto who was flashy and making statements to the world, there's technically "no crimes" for her to pay

 

[Anubis]

Plus, she's been doing the hero thing for a good 15 years. Losing all her kids had a profound effect on her. Plus, I like character development and she's the poster child for character development. Move forward, not back.

Magneto on the other hand can go die for all I care.

 

[Franklin Richards]

"done things on the side"

- Attempting to blackmail her own father over affairs with his mistress? (Emma Frost #4)

- Using her powers to cheat at poker at an offshore casino? (Emma Frost #8)

- Heading back to the same casino and trying to steal from it by making an empty chip tray appear as if it had five thousand dollars in chips on it? (Emma Frost #9)

- Allowing herself to be “kidnapped” to pay off her first boyfriend, Troy Killkelly's debts to a loan shark named Lucien Goff with the “ransom” paid for by her father? (Emma Frost #10)

- Using her powers to get the kidnappers to kill each other, or leave them to be arrested, while collecting the $160,000 “ransom” her father paid, and keeping it herself? (Emma Frost #12)

- Kissing her former high school teacher, and college professor, Ian Kendall, knowing that he was romantically involved with her roommate, Christine McDermott? (Emma Frost #17)

- Using her powers to put her first mentor, Astrid Bloom, into a coma? (Emma Frost #18)*

- Using her powers to help defend Ian Kendall from being charged with improper relationships with a student, by using her powers to make Christine McDermott to turn into a raving lunatic? (Emma Frost #18)

- Using faked invitations to move among society’s elite, and pick business secrets out of their minds to use for her own benefit? (Generation X: Minus One)

- Telepathically restoring the mind of the Dark Beast, and in spite of seeing the horrible acts he’d done, aiding him with her growing fortune, and setting him up a new lab to help her advance her powers and provide her with advanced technology? (Generation X: Minus One)

- After auditioning to be a Hellfire Club dancer through her connection to Harry Leland, getting cosmetic surgery and using her sexual wiles as the “Perfect Ice Queen. The Dominatrix from Hell” to rise in the Club’s ranks? ((New X-Men (vol. 1) #139, Classic X-Men #34) *

- Deliberately bankrupting her Hellfire Club rival, Biance LaNiege? (revealed in Generation X #48 )

- Using her powers to psionically force the White King of the Hellfire Club’s Council of the Chosen to shoot each member of the council, including Paris Seville, his own White Queen, and then himself? (Classic X-Men #7)*

- Trying to recruit Kitty Pryde out from under Professor X and the X-Men, and then ambushing them while they tried to recruit her in turn? (Uncanny X-Men #129)

- Working in tandem with Mastermind to try and corrupt the Phoenix into becoming the new Black Queen of the Hellfire Club? (Uncanny X-Men #127-132) *

- Psychically torturing Storm, and attempting to completely mind-wipe her (interrupted by Phoenix before she could) (Uncanny X-Men #131)

- Telepathically forcing the Prydes to transfer Shadowcat to the Massachusetts Academy? (Uncanny X-Men #151)

- Using a device to switch bodies with Storm, and offering her new body immediately to Sebastian Shaw, passionately kissing him? (Uncanny X-Men #151-152)*

- Kidnapping the New Mutants, and reneging on a supposed deal to grant them their freedom if Jetstream could beat Cannonball in a competition over who had better mastery over their flight powers (Uncanny X-Men #180, New Mutants (vol. 1) #15-17)

- Recruiting Angelica Jones, Firestar, to the Massachusetts Academy, and deceiving her into thinking her powers were out of control by staging several “accidents”, including burning down the barn where her horse, Butter Rum was being kept, killing it? - ( Firestar #1-4)*

- Ordering the death of Randall Chase, and trying to frame Selene for it, in the hopes that Firestar would use her powers to avenge him, and kill the Black Queen for her? (Firestar #1-4)

- Psi-blasting and then choking Empath, one of her students? (New Mutants (vol. 1) #26)

- Kidnapping the New Mutants a second time, using Empath to convince Magneto to release them to her custody? (New Mutants (vol. 1) #38-39)

- Asking the Snow Valley police call in the Avengers to detain Magneto for trying to “kidnap her students” when he tried to retrieve the New Mutants from her. (New Mutants (vol. 1) #40)

- Having Empath subtly influence the emotions of Magma to get her to join the Hellions so she could use the relationship to better cement ties with Magma’s father and further her business interests in the Amazon. (New Mutants (vol. 1) #53-54, 57, 62)

- Manipulating Magneto and Sebastian Shaw into a feud, and then voting Shaw out of the Hellfire Club after he lost a duel to Magneto. (New Mutants (vol. 1) #74-75)

- Trying to settle a bet with Selene by competing for the affections of Chet Andrews, a Hellfire Club Guard. Then, when trying to use her powers to their fullest to sway his heart at the same time as Selene, causing his head to literally explode in confusion about which one to choose? (X-Men Unlimited (vol. 1) #33)

- Tipping off Freedom Force about how Firestar still needed to sign the Mutant Registration Act?(Marvel Comics Presents (vol. 1) #78)

- Using her powers to switch bodies with Iceman? (Uncanny X-Men #311-314)

- Kicking Leech, a child, in the head to be able to access her powers when being threatened by Gene Nation? (Generation X #7)

- Using her powers to get the police to forget Generation X, and allow them to take Synch back into custody? (Generation X #15)

- Using her powers to force Banshee to obey her command to land? (Generation X #16)

- Using her powers to force Banshee to step out of the door of a plane in mid-flight, then kidnapping half of Generation X, taking them to Canada, and trying to keep them psionically docile while Onslaught attacked? (Generation X #18-19)

- To gain sympathy, lying to Generation X, and telling them her parents put her in an asylum, and she used her developing powers to overwhelm the guards and burn it down to escape (which may have been based off of the life of her brother Christian, or Astrid Bloom)? (Generation X #24 )

- Telepathically knocking out Banshee in an attempt to barter with Emplate and give him Penance to feed upon in exchange for the locations of the rest of Generation X? (Generation X #30-31)

- Punching Banshee in the face to assert dominance at the Mass. Academy? (Generation X #34)

- Killing her sister Adrienne, then mindwiping, or possibly killing the investigating detective to get away with it? (Generation X #70, 75)*

- Teaching the Cuckoos to upload pornographic images into the minds of celebrities? (New X-Men (vol. 1) #118)

- Making an assembled press corps at the gate of Xavier's School pass out from bliss? (New X-Men (vol. 1) #118)

- Working to trick Cassandra Nova into being trapped in the body of the Shi’ar Imperial Guardsman, Stuff? (New X-Men (vol. 1) #126)

- Experimenting with the drug, Kick? (admits to it in (New X-Men (vol. 1) #135)

- Allowing students to gang up and attack Sage and Bishop for her approval? (X-Treme X-Men #20)

- "Outing" a mutant, Douglas Hutchinson, at his own wedding in front of his assembled guests? (X-Men Unlimited (vol. 2) #4)

- Turning all the animals in the diamond manufacturing facility of Kristal Van Helden upon her men, killing them, and then impaling Van Helden upon a huge spike of diamond? (X-Men Unlimited (vol. 1) #42)

- Beginning a telepathic affair with Cyclops? ( New X-Men (vol. 1) Annual 2001, New X-Men (vol. 1) #128, 131, 139 )*

- Kissing Cyclops for the first time at Jean’s gravesite? (New X-Men (vol. 1) #154-156)

- Calling Rachel Summers a “stupid cow” after she was struck out in by her in the bottom of the ninth with 2 out in a game of baseball in front of most of the assembled residents of Xavier’s? (Uncanny X-Men #444)

- Refusing to turn Wither over to authorities to face trial for the death of his father? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #5)

- Firing Dani Moonstar after she lost her powers after M-Day? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #20)

- Only naming Surge the head of the New X-Men as a way to spite Hellion, who turned the job down? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #24)

- Trying to send all the depowered mutants away from Xavier’s, leading to their being blown up on a bus by the Purifiers? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #24)

- Continuously trying to push X-23 out of the mansion for being a clone, and a killing machine? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #33)

- Erasing Kimura’s memories of the only person she loved, her grandmother? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #36)

- Promising Danger it would get Professor X in exchange for its help against the Breakworlders? - (Astonishing X-Men #24)

- Telepathically knocking out Jamie Madrox, not allowing him to find a way to use Forge’s machine to rescue Layla Miller from a future concentration camp? (X-Factor (vol. 3) #27)


She's evil and everything she's done to help mutantkind was all about helping herself in the end.

 

[Anubis]

Wow, you went through a lotta gd trouble.

Half of those are when she was flat out evil, the other half are grey area situations that range everywhere from self defense to simply the fact that she's a b***h. Deal with it.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I have dealt with it. She's flat out evil. Always has been. Always will. Three years of ****ing Cyclops ain't gonna change that.





Also... step one of redemption. Stop being a *****.

 

[Anubis]

Racist.

 

[Franklin Richards]

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It looks like you read the entire Emma Frost series just to find stuff to fuel your hatred of the character. Which is kind of... I'll go with "odd."

 

[Franklin Richards]

I like to read stories with Anti-Heroes in them. People just tend to forget that Long John Silver was an evil bastard despite his love for little boys.

 

[roach]

I like to read stories with Anti-Heroes in them. People just tend to forget that Long John Silver was an evil bastard despite his love for little boys.

but he has a awesome fish and chips basket

 

[Franklin Richards]

That he does my friend. I curse and praise him while eating the crunchies.

 

[Havok83]

"done things on the side"

- Trying to send all the depowered mutants away from Xavier’s, leading to their being blown up on a bus by the Purifiers? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #24)

- Continuously trying to push X-23 out of the mansion for being a clone, and a killing machine? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #33)

- Erasing Kimura’s memories of the only person she loved, her grandmother? ( New X-Men (vol. 2) #36)

- Promising Danger it would get Professor X in exchange for its help against the Breakworlders? - (Astonishing X-Men #24)

And as I said, those "things on the side" are not things she did in public or that the authorities are aware of, therefore there was no reason to arrest her and make her legally pay for any of that. As for the stuff I left...really thats proof that she's currently evil since reforming?

She sent the depowered kids away from the X-mansion bc they werent safe there. Stryker and his Purifiers came to the mansion and assaulted them and at least one student that I can recall (Laurie) was shot dead in the head. Unfortunately sending the depowered kids home didnt help either, but that was not a malicious act

She didnt want X-23 at the mansion bc she didnt trust her. She was a trained killer and placing her around a bunch of students whom she was responsible for left Emma on edge for good reason.

She erased Kimura's memories of the grandma she loved...big deal! Kimura had kidnapped some of her students and nearly killed them. She was going to keep coming back to kill X-23 no matter and in the process would put her students in harm's way again. Emma wiped her mind so she wouldnt remember this vendetta and protect the kids. Protecting the kids....hmmmm. Notice a patern there?

Danger....she told a white lie to help give the X-men the best shot at saving the planet. I dont see whats wrong with that

Alot of the rest of the stuff on your list is really a stretch. Alot of other heroes do worse

 

[runawayboulder]

LOL, what the hell went on here last night?

 

[Anubis]

Frankie loves Hollywood has a Vendetta against Emma Frost.

 

[Franklin Richards]

And as I said, those "things on the side" are not things she did in public or that the authorities are aware of, therefore there was no reason to arrest her and make her legally pay for any of that. As for the stuff I left...really thats proof that she's currently evil since reforming?

She sent the depowered kids away from the X-mansion bc they werent safe there. Stryker and his Purifiers came to the mansion and assaulted them and at least one student that I can recall (Laurie) was shot dead in the head. Unfortunately sending the depowered kids home didnt help either, but that was not a malicious act

She didnt want X-23 at the mansion bc she didnt trust her. She was a trained killer and placing her around a bunch of students whom she was responsible for left Emma on edge for good reason.

She erased Kimura's memories of the grandma she loved...big deal! Kimura had kidnapped some of her students and nearly killed them. She was going to keep coming back to kill X-23 no matter and in the process would put her students in harm's way again. Emma wiped her mind so she wouldnt remember this vendetta and protect the kids. Protecting the kids....hmmmm. Notice a patern there?

Danger....she told a white lie to help give the X-men the best shot at saving the planet. I dont see whats wrong with that

Alot of the rest of the stuff on your list is really a stretch. Alot of other heroes do worse

So you're only guilty if you get caught? Right. Forgot that one.

So Emma the Murderer sent X-23 away cause she was a killer? Wow. No room in her mind for forgiveness? Trust? You know... all the things that the X-Men placed in her? She seems to have a thing for sending away innocent people to die. I suppose banishment is easier to swallow. Out of sight. Out of mind. Forget the fact that now these former mutants don't have the power to protect themselves from The Klan. Just hope for the best. No responsibility now. Well **** her.

Professor X set the standard for mind control ethics and Emma pisses all over that. Just to protect some children. Not children. Specific children. Sacrificing Palestinian children to protect Israeli children is still wrong. Well **** her again.

And you conveniently ignore all the really evil things on the list. Keep justifying things in your mind. It's easier than facing the truth. The truth is the ***** is evil.

"If half an onion is rotting, it's still a rotten onion."

 

[spiderbob]

LOL, what the hell went on here last night?

I have no idea.
Something about evil members on the X-Men and Avengers and blowing up security guard's heads with their minds.

t:

 

[Havok83]

So you're only guilty if you get caught? Right. Forgot that one.

Yes. That’s how it works in this country.

So Emma the Murderer sent X-23 away cause she was a killer? Wow. No room in her mind for forgiveness? Trust? You know... all the things that the X-Men placed in her?

It wasn’t about forgiveness or not. X-23 never did anything to Emma that needed forgiveness. She was thinking about the safety of her students and X-23 was an unknown entity to her. As headmistress she already had a lot to deal with following M-Day and a trained assassin with very little people skills was a complication she felt could endanger those she swore to protect. In time X-23 proved herself and Emma has helped her. She helped protect her from Kimura (well at least until her mind trick wore off) and before that she helped Hellion save her life when she was nearly slaughtered by Nimrod. Emma grew to care for and protect her just like she did the rest of her students.

She seems to have a thing for sending away innocent people to die. I suppose banishment is easier to swallow. Out of sight. Out of mind. Forget the fact that now these former mutants don't have the power to protect themselves from The Klan. Just hope for the best. No responsibility now. Well **** her.

Again it wasn’t her intention to have the kids killed. O.N.E. had turned the X-mansion into a concentration camp. It wasn’t the place for them anymore. Their families enrolled them in the school to learn how to control their abilities; with their X-gene removed, they didn’t need to be there anymore, especially not after the government stepped in and declared it a place where they’d round up and house mutants following the decimation.

Professor X set the standard for mind control ethics and Emma pisses all over that. Just to protect some children. Not children. Specific children. Sacrificing Palestinian children to protect Israeli children is still wrong. Well **** her again.

Emma never sacrified any children so I don’t get where this analogy even has any merit. And you are really using Xavier as a pargon for mind control ethics? This being the same guy that manipulated Wolverine’s mind to get him to join the X-men? The same guy who gave a bunch of inexperienced teens false memories of field experience which never happened and inadvertenly got them killed in the process and he wiped out Scott’s memories of this ever even happening? The same guy that manipulated and caged an alien sentient for years within his Danger Room? If anything Emma is following in Xavier’s footsteps. She’s just not as hypocritical about it.

And you conveniently ignore all the really evil things on the list. Keep justifying things in your mind. It's easier than facing the truth. The truth is the ***** is evil.

"If half an onion is rotting, it's still a rotten onion."

You went and listed a bunch load of stuff from her 30+ years as a character. Did you realy expect me to pick apart each and every thing? Its not ignoring the stuff to justify anything; that stuff is irrelevant. No one is denying Emma was a villain and I most certainly did not. She did some really screwed up stuff in the past during her villainous career. I focused in on the more recent stuff bc that’s more in line with the character she is today, not not the things she was doing 25 years ago. People change. They grow up, they move on and they can redeem themselves. Emma did. She is not the same person she was 30+ years ago when we first were introduced to her

 

[Brainiac 8]

I think Emma has more than made up for some of the stuff she's done in the past. Her breaking point was when her students were all killed, that effected her and at times motivates her actions when protecting the children at the school now.

Also in the discussion of mind wiping, if that was a unforgivable crime, even mind wiping for good reason, then Xavier should be locked up too. In fact, Xavier has done some pretty crazy bad things in the past, including creating a psionic creature that killed the entire Avenger roster.

 

[Franklin Richards]

It wasn't 30 years ago. It was 5 at the most. And even if it was 30 years ago, there is no statute of limitations on cold blooded MURDER.


The bottom line is that Emma is a survivor. That's why she joined the Illuminaughty for a while. Once the wind changes directions again, I'm sure she'll be leading the Hellfire Club.

You think she's changed. I don't. I have a laundry list of reasons to back up my beliefs. You have faith in an evil *****. I'm pretty sure we're not going to change each others' minds. So you keep thinking she's "changed" and I'll sit back and wait for the other shoe to drop.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I think Emma has more than made up for some of the stuff she's done in the past. Her breaking point was when her students were all killed, that effected her and at times motivates her actions when protecting the children at the school now.

Also in the discussion of mind wiping, if that was a unforgivable crime, even mind wiping for good reason, then Xavier should be locked up too. In fact, Xavier has done some pretty crazy bad things in the past, including creating a psionic creature that killed the entire Avenger roster.

I said Xavier set the standards. I didn't say he stuck to them. However I believe that Charles hasn't gone too far. But this is a straw man argument. Pointing out others people's faults doesn't erase the fact that Emma is a cold blooded killer who feels bad about her pets' death.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Dude, it's a comic book.

I mean you are talking about a team that has had Wolverine on it for years, a dude that is ok with literally slaughtering hundreds of people, leads a team of murdering assassins, and in fact on occasion has murdered his teammates in cold blood.

This dude is also an Avenger.

double standard much?

 

[Franklin Richards]

When did I say that Wolverine wasn't a cold blooded killer who deserves to rot in jail? No double standard here.

 

[Havok83]

It wasn't 30 years ago. It was 5 at the most. And even if it was 30 years ago, there is no statute of limitations on cold blooded MURDER.


The bottom line is that Emma is a survivor. That's why she joined the Illuminaughty for a while. Once the wind changes directions again, I'm sure she'll be leading the Hellfire Club

You think she's changed. I don't. I have a laundry list of reasons to back up my beliefs. You have faith in an evil *****. I'm pretty sure we're not going to change each others' minds. So you keep thinking she's "changed" and I'll sit back and wait for the other shoe to drop

30 in that she made her debut circa 1980

Her time with the Cabal wasn't bc she was evil and looking to turn. It was all a trick. She was a spy and used the opportunity to get close to Osborn, watch him and ultimately defeat him at his own game. She and Scott planned that together and it helped them be ready when he got power hungry and sent his Dark Avengers and Dark Xmen after them

How long you been waiting to see her turn back? 1994? That's quite a long wait and counting

When did I say that Wolverine wasn't a cold blooded killer who deserves to rot in jail? No double standard here.

Double standard in that Captain America knows this yet has him along his side as one of his trusted members. That was the initial argument you held against Scott and his team of criminal members