Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 1

[Franklin Richards]

Once again. Marvel Time is not Earth Time. Franklin Richards first appeared in 1968. That would make him 43 years old. He's not.

 

[Havok83]

Well duh, that much is obvious. What did you think was meant by the term 30+ years as a character?

 

[Franklin Richards]

You meant that she's been good since 1994. Suggesting that her character has been good in real time for 18 years.

 

[Havok83]

You meant that she's been good since 1994. Suggesting that her character has been good in real time for 18 years.

You're the only one equating comic time to real time. I clarified that already when I referred to her comic debut

 

[Brainiac 8]

Heroes and villians flip flop all the time based on the whim of the writer. Why is Emma being seen as any different from every other instance of this?

 

[Franklin Richards]

I don't remember Ben Grimm every killing anyone in cold blood.

 

[roach]

i think she gets a lot of hate because she didn't just flip flop but she also broke up one of the iconic relationships in Marvel comics....many people feel she is the reason why Jean hasn't come back yet....their relationship has ushered in Dark Cyclops.
Few villains have made the switch and remained heroes...so many are waiting for the elaborate scheme that Emma infiltrated the X-men and turned them from peaceful group dedicated to peace between the races into a militant pro mutant group

 

[Franklin Richards]

Double standard in that Captain America knows this yet has him along his side as one of his trusted members. That was the initial argument you held against Scott and his team of criminal members

Remember how you said that if Emma didn't get caught then she wasn't guilty? Well Wolverine was caught and pardoned. Plus I'm pretty sure that Cap doesn't know everything about Wolverine's past.

Authority. Cap has it. Cyclops doesn't.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Then again, not all heroes fit into the same mold. We weren't talking about Thing either though.

That's like me coming out and saying "I don't remember Leech killing anyone in cold blood, so my point stands!"

The point is that there are numerous reformed villians that can fit into the mold you are trying to shove Emma into. I'm not sure why all your vitriol is aimed at her.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Because I don't believe her.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Remember how you said that if Emma didn't get caught then she wasn't guilty? Well Wolverine was caught and pardoned. Plus I'm pretty sure that Cap doesn't know everything about Wolverine's past.

Authority. Cap has it. Cyclops doesn't.

So yes, double standard, just because you say so.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Not because I say so. Because EVERYONE says so. We gave Cap that authority. Not King Cyclops, Lady Emma, and Lord Magneto.

 

[Manic]

Whoa, whoa! Did someone dig up the old "Emma used to be a bad guy" debate again? Really? Because I'm fairly certain she's been a morally ambiguous good guy longer than she was a bad guy, at this point. If we're gonna throw her on a pike, let's start naming a few other names, like Rogue, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Dr. Nemesis, Karima Shapandar, Jean Grey, Warpath, Professor X, Jocasta, the Hulk, Red Hulk. They've all been bad guys at one point.

 

[Brainiac 8]

So Captain America has the authority to pardon using a character with more blood on his hands than Emma, plus is currently running a kill team alongside being an Avenger.

Yup, Cap is so much more altruistic than Cyclops, a man who has taken upon himself the responsibility of preserving an endagered species.

 

[Havok83]

Xavier is the one that gave Emma the keys to the school, not Cyclops. Xavier is the one that gave her the shot at redemption, named her headmistress and allowed her the chance to prove herself despite the stuff she had done in the past, not "King Cyclops"

 

[Brainiac 8]

Xavier is the one that gave Emma the keys to the school, not Cyclops. Xavier is the one that gave her the shot at redemption, named her headmistress and allowed her the chance to prove herself despite the stuff she had done in the past, not "King Cyclops"

This too. Xavier gave her the pardon, not Cyclops.

Does Xavier have the authority to pardon ex-villians, or is it still just Cap?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Whoa, whoa! Did someone dig up the old "Emma used to be a bad guy" debate again? Really? Because I'm fairly certain she's been a morally ambiguous good guy longer than she was a bad guy, at this point. If we're gonna throw her on a pike, let's start naming a few other names, like Rogue, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Dr. Nemesis, Karima Shapandar, Jean Grey, Warpath, Professor X, Jocasta, the Hulk, Red Hulk. They've all been bad guys at one point.

I'm not talking about any of those people. I'm talking about Emma. But put up a list of the things Hawkeye has done and compare it to the list I put up of what Emma has done. I think there is a false equivalency in the comparisons. It's not a push.


Here's probably the biggest difference. I'm 40 years old and I actually remember when Emma was old and evil. I read those books when they came out. Now everyone has forgotten all those things. Well I haven't forgotten.

Also Emma has done nothing to convince me otherwise. Being sad about her pets dieing doesn't do it for me. Doom gets upset when Latverians die but that don't make him good.

Are there instances where good men have to work with bad ones? Of course. Should we condemn everyone who makes temporary alliances with bad guys when their backs are against the wall? Of course not. But I'm not going to forget what they did and I might not forgive either.

Rogue convinced me.
Hawkeye convinced me.
Warpath convinced me.


Emma? Don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Xavier is the one that gave Emma the keys to the school, not Cyclops. Xavier is the one that gave her the shot at redemption, named her headmistress and allowed her the chance to prove herself despite the stuff she had done in the past, not "King Cyclops"

This too. Xavier gave her the pardon, not Cyclops.

Does Xavier have the authority to pardon ex-villians, or is it still just Cap?

Xavier ****ed up.


And I trust Cap. Period. He's a better judge than most men. But if it makes you feel better... I don't like Wolverine either. I think he's an anti-hero who needs to pay for the crimes he's committed.

I like my heroes to be heroic.

 

[Manic]

The thing about Emma turning good is that, well, she's still a major league b****. She's no longer a villain, but no one said she has to be nice. That doesn't mean she's still evil.

The truth is that, for the time being, all of the writers and editors at Marvel intend to keep Emma Frost on the side of good. So for all intents and purposes, she's a good guy that some characters mistakenly believe is still bad.

 

[Franklin Richards]

So if the Hate Monger started hanging out with the Avengers and said he was good, you'd believe it?

 

[Manic]

So if the Hate Monger started hanging out with the Avengers and said he was good, you'd believe it?

If he proved his loyalty enough times after a decade and a half worth of comics, yes.

 

[Havok83]

I have no idea who that even is but if he was written as such for 18 years (real time NOT comic book years), then yes I would

 

[roach]

I have no idea who that even is but if he was written as such for 18 years (real time NOT comic book years), then yes I would

resurrected clone of Hitler that could control emotions

 

[Brainiac 8]

So all the times that Emma was essential in saving the earth from villians ranging from various alien races to apocalypse, not to mention teaching Bobby how to save himself when a hole was blasted through his chest in ice form and protecting the children that made up Generation X/X-Men Academy time after time...none of these proved that she is a hero that just has an uppity attitude?

She's a jerk a lot...but she has proven herself on numerous occasions.

 

[Manic]

I should note that I'm a fan of the occasional "morally ambiguous good guy" character. I like former bad guys who turn good and struggle against their less-than-pleasant tendencies.

Not only do I accept Emma as a good guy, but I want Magneto to stay in the X-Men for as long as possible. Though god knows Magneto's good streak is on borrowed time like Charles Xavier's legs.