Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 1

[Franklin Richards]

Well you guys are just a bunch of saints.

 

[Franklin Richards]

So all the times that Emma was essential in saving the earth from villians ranging from various alien races to apocalypse, not to mention teaching Bobby how to save himself when a hole was blasted through his chest in ice form and protecting the children that made up Generation X/X-Men Academy time after time...none of these proved that she is a hero that just has an uppity attitude?

She's a jerk a lot...but she has proven herself on numerous occasions.

Doctor Doom has helped save the Earth several times. For his own reasons. Emma has her reasons.

 

[Havok83]

Yeah the one thing that's been consistent about her since her reformation was her love for teaching. She genuinely cares about her students and they are why she became an X-man and dedicated her life to doing good. Xavier took a chance and made a good decision when he entrusted her to lead up the future generation. She's proven herself to be a valuable member to the team since

Not only do I accept Emma as a good guy, but I want Magneto to stay in the X-Men for as long as possible. Though god knows Magneto's good streak is on borrowed time like Charles Xavier's legs.

Magneto’s last canon story as a villain was EoD and even that felt a little forced. He doesn’t work in that role anymore and has outgrown it. Im glad he’s spent the last 10+ years not being a villain and like how he is currently portrayed. Unlike Emma, I do see him going back eventually but like you I hope it doesn’t happen for a while

 

[roach]

I should note that I'm a fan of the occasional "morally ambiguous good guy" character. I like former bad guys who turn good and struggle against their less-than-pleasant tendencies.

Not only do I accept Emma as a good guy, but I want Magneto to stay in the X-Men for as long as possible. Though god knows Magneto's good streak is on borrowed time like Charles Xavier's legs.

I do like Magneto as a good guy but the problem is there is no top level villain who has replaced him.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Doctor Doom has helped save the Earth several times. For his own reasons. Emma has her reasons.

So does Hawkeye...I can't wait to find out what his secret motive was when he ultimately betrays the Avengers to continue his life as a villian. Why would I think that after years of being a hero? Meh, because I say so.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Yeah the one thing that's been consistent about her since her reformation was her love for teaching. She genuinely cares about her students and they are why she became an X-man and dedicated her life to doing good. Xavier took a chance and made a good decision when he entrusted her to lead up the future generation. She's proven herself to be a valuable member to the team since

I like Xavier but he makes risky and foolish decisions all the time. Storm not good enough to run the school? How about Beast? Iceman not "mature" enough for you?

Lots of better choices than Magneto and Emma to replace him. Here's an idea... Cyclops?

 

[Franklin Richards]

So does Hawkeye...I can't wait to find out what his secret motive was when he ultimately betrays the Avengers to continue his life as a villian. Why would I think that after years of being a hero? Meh, because I say so.

Hawkeye robbed people. Are you really comparing him to Emma?

 

[Havok83]

I do like Magneto as a good guy but the problem is there is no top level villain who has replaced him.

I thought Cassandra Nova did a good job in New X-men. Gillen is currently building up Sinister as a major threat, more so than he ever has been before.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Hawkeye robbed people. Are you really comparing him to Emma?

The crime doesn't matter. In comics characters reform/go evil all the time. If you are going to arbitrarily assume she's still a villian even though she hasn't been for over twenty years, then you might as well assume that with Rogue, Hawkeye, or various other heroes that use to be villians.

 

[roach]

I thought Cassandra Nova did a good job in New X-men. Gillen is currently building up Sinister as a major threat, more so than he ever has been before.

the thing is Magneto wasn't just a threat power wise...Magneto represented a side we all would feel. What made him a great villain wasn't because he'd threaten the planet but because you could actually agree with him. Its human nature to strike put against people who hurt us. Nova and Sinister aren't on that level.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I don't have to assume that. I use my own judgement. Like I said before... Hawkeye convinced me. Rogue convinced me. Emma didn't. And I only have my own judgement to fall back on. Just like you.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Meh, I was just trying to understand why you would throw this type of attitude on one character arbitrarily and not any other ex-villian. Looks like the answer is 'just because.'

Good to know.

 

[Franklin Richards]

It's not arbitrary. I gave degrees. I gave a list of the crimes Emma has committed. That's not arbitrary. I compared her crimes to those of Hawkeye. That's not arbitrary.

Condemning a thief and condemning an assassin are two different things.

 

[Harlekin]

Yeah, I don't agree with Franklin on Emma, but she really can't be compared to most of the bad-guys-turned-good-types like Hawkeye. The archer was hardly a villain. A thief and a robber, someone Iron Man fought for an issue or two. Emma Frost spent a good fourteen years manipulating, mind controlling and killing. All rather cold bloodedly too. Hawkeye was a sap that fell for the wrong woman.

Years and mileage, in this case.

Which, if you start counting, also means that Emma hass been reformed now for about seventeen years (1994/1995). As of 2011, that's longer then she was a villain. She's spent half of her comic life (that's our time) making up for her mistakes. Just as often by making more mistakes, but it's clear by now that Emma Frost has essentially become a good person. Her methods are still rough though. She'll never be a complete white hat, but then the X-Men haven't been that since the eighties.

It would've been the basis for a decent conflict between the Avengers and the X-Men a few years ago though. The X'ers does seem to take in a higher number of out and out villains: the so-called Extinction team is practically made up of it. The Avengers have Hawkeye and the aforementioned wrong woman (Black Widow), who was really only a villain for two years and the same goes for Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Wonder Man (although first two ended up flipping back and forth a few times, with some devastating results). You could, by the way, easily say the same for Rogue. These characters were never really villains.

 

[THANOSRULES]

The crime doesn't matter. In comics characters reform/go evil all the time. If you are going to arbitrarily assume she's still a villian even though she hasn't been for over twenty years, then you might as well assume that with Rogue, Hawkeye, or various other heroes that use to be villians.

This is ridiculous.

Yes the crime does matter.

Robbing people is a lot different than being a member (or leader) of the brotherhood or hellfire club and trying to take over the world or kill people.

It's not twenty years marvel time either.

do we even know how many people Clint Robbed?

White Queen was a super-villain.

...and Magneto had been trying to destroy humankind in more recent years. Oh yeah Juggernaut/Colossus too..your asking for cap to walk up to these guys like old drinking buddies? These are villains on a much higher level than Vision wigging out and trying to take over the world.

 

[Havok83]

Which, if you start counting, also means that Emma hass been reformed now for about seventeen years (1994/1995). As of 2011, that's longer then she was a villain. She's spent half of her comic life (that's our time) making up for her mistakes. Just as often by making more mistakes, but it's clear by now that Emma Frost has essentially become a good person. Her methods are still rough though. She'll never be a complete white hat, but then the X-Men haven't been that since the eighties.

Technically its even shorter than that as she spent 1991-1994 in a coma. 11 years vs 18 years (real time). Her reformation is one of the most believable of the former villians who have done so.

 

[Manic]

Emma could be a hero for the next 50 years (real time), and she'll still be portrayed as a grey-area former villain. I've accepted that. It's just one of those things that no writer (or fictional character) will ever let go of, like Hank Pym being labeled a wanton wifebeater because of that one time he accidentally hit Janet.

 

[slim_summers]

Remember how you said that if Emma didn't get caught then she wasn't guilty? Well Wolverine was caught and pardoned. Plus I'm pretty sure that Cap doesn't know everything about Wolverine's past.

Authority. Cap has it. Cyclops doesn't.

Don't make me blast you off my lawn, son.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Well you guys are just a bunch of saints.

Emma could be a hero for the next 50 years (real time), and she'll still be portrayed as a grey-area former villain. I've accepted that. It's just one of those things that no writer (or fictional character) will ever let go of, like Hank Pym being labeled a wanton wifebeater because of that one time he accidentally hit Janet.

right..which is writing that demonstrates an understanding of how people actually think and judge.

people don't usually have much forgiveness for real life super criminals.

 

[Harlekin]

And honestly, Emma Frost's past should never be let go. It informs her character to a great degree.

 

[usagicassidy]

I've never even seen Emma as truly evil. Sure, she was a part of the Hellfire Club, but history has shown that, while sometimes seeming duplicitous, Emma is all about teaching and protecting. The Hellions, Generation X, the students in Morrison's New X-Men, the 2nd group of Hellions and later the new X-Men in general...

 

[Havok83]

Guys do realize that the real reason the Avengers are fighting the X-men is bc Scott is going around referring to the X-men as Earth's Mightiest Heroes. In fact he says they've always been that

Problem is the Avengers have been saying that about themselves for decades

Im guessing Cap found out and is here to prove once and for all which team is truly Earth's Mightiest Heroes

 

[Franklin Richards]

We all know they're both wrong. The Fantastic Four are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes. And the World's Greatest as well.

 

[Harlekin]

I've never even seen Emma as truly evil. Sure, she was a part of the Hellfire Club, but history has shown that, while sometimes seeming duplicitous, Emma is all about teaching and protecting. The Hellions, Generation X, the students in Morrison's New X-Men, the 2nd group of Hellions and later the new X-Men in general...

I guess it does depend on where you start reading. While a nineties reader, I first read Emma Frost's appearances in the Dark Phoenix Saga and the like. I first met her as a villain and there was no doubt then that was what she was.

 

[Blue Hero]

This is a little outdated now, but I thought everyone would be interested in seeing my video about this series. It was fun to interview these people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIumYFAkdxE