Batman Begins vs The Avengers

[XtremelyBaneful]

avengers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bb

 

[Keehar]

Batman Begins, baby. It has an actual story with some depth.

 

[Killer]

Lost of great movies have macguffins: Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Trek: Wrath of Khan, and Maltese Falcon.

and Batman Begins is a good story?

It has good actors and everything but it really lacks a third act that can compare to any great film/story.

It falls into the same tropes of the typical action movie without the mind-blowing visuals and thrilling set pieces of Avengers.

The only thing the third act lacks is a boring and generic massive destruction scene like we see in The Avengers , and i´m glad about that.

 

[DA_Champion]

And what does that have to do with Batman?

A steel-minded genius determined to be the world's greatest crime fighter days after his parents are killed?

You seem to have misunderstood Batman Begins.

The movie is about the journey between that eight year old boy who lost his parents and Bruce Wayne being Batman.

Prior to being Batman, he fails several times and makes many bad decisions, but he learns from them and this contributes to his journey.

 

[Snow Queen]

While the topic is being brought up, when it comes to action scenes, I come down in the minority opinion that the ones in the Nolan trilogy are some of my favourites. Begins' third act wasn't the best and by far the weakest part of the film for me, but it was a far cry better than the boring seemingly never ending final action scene of The Avengers. That nearly put me to sleep.

 

[Killer]

While the topic is being brought up, when it comes to action scenes, I come down in the minority opinion that the ones in the Nolan trilogy are some of my favourites. Begins' third act wasn't the best and by far the weakest part of the film for me, but it was a far cry better than the boring seemingly never ending final action scene of The Avengers. That nearly put me to sleep.

That´s a good way to describe the third act of most Marvel movies. But some folks like loud "never ending" destruction scenes. I don´t find them appealing. Nolan handles third acts better than anyone. He knows how to do it without bore me to death.

 

[DA_Champion]

That´s a good way to describe the third act of most Marvel movies. But some folks like loud "never ending" destruction scenes. I don´t find them appealing. Nolan handles third acts better than anyone. He knows how to do it without bore me to death.

Not just Marvel.

Also Star Trek into Darkness, Elysium, Transformers, ...

 

[Killer]

Not just Marvel.

Also Star Trek into Darkness, Elysium, Transformers, ...

You´re right. It seems to be an on going thing with action movies. I think this started to happen because of CGI. Because they can do a lot of things, they think they really have to do a lot of things and use and abuse the new technologies.

I mean, just compare the new TMNT with the 1990 version. The first film´s third act was pretty simple, with a couple of cool fight scenes. The last one, explosions after explosions and everything being destructed twice. I mean, c´mon...enough already.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Begins might have a bit more to chew on than Avengers thematically but lets not pretend it's high art.

 

[Killer]

Begins might have a bit more to chew on than Avengers thematically but lets not pretend it's high art.

It looks beautiful, has an amazing soundtrack, some great cinematic moments, a well executed story and great performances by great actors. It is, indeed, high art. At least, relatively to its genre. The same can be said for the other two movies.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It looks beautiful, has an amazing soundtrack, some great cinematic scenes, a well executed story and great performances by great actors. It is, indeed, high art. At least, relatively to its genre. The same can be said for the other two movies.

I'll give you TDK since Heath Ledger's performance elevates the film above most superhero movies but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Nolan's fanbase who considers Batman Begins or Dark Knight Rises "high art".

 

[Killer]

I'll give you TDK since Heath Ledger's performance elevates the film above most superhero movies but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Nolan's fanbase who considers Batman Begins or Dark Knight Rises "high art".

I´m not sure i´ve seen anyone use the term "high art", but i´ve certainly seen both Begins and TDKR described as being amazing movies by people who aren´t Nolan "fanboys" (whatever that means).

Batman Begins

Artful, daring and wise, it's one of the best anti-summer popcorn movies ever made

An impressive cinematic renaissance for DC Comics' Dark Knight, and a blockbuster with more intelligence than most.

A moody and visually stimulating superhero film, Batman Begins sees the Dark Knight finally giving the treatment and respect he deserves, in what can only be described as one of the greatest re-vamps given to an enduring character.

An utterly amazing and riveting start to a brand new beginning...

Here's how any great franchise should start: with care, precision and delicately wrought atmosphere

The attention Nolan gives to the characters and the storyline brings Batman back into focus as an inventive heroic figure.

A rousing, reverent, often brilliant re-creation of a seminal comics character.

TDKR

Arguably the biggest, darkest, most thrilling and disturbing and utterly balls-out spectacle ever created for the screen.

A fitting conclusion to an artful trilogy,

Nolan's finale gives us the inevitable with generous portions of suspense, surprise and delicious shock.

Saddled with the impossible expectations surrounding the final chapter in his trilogy of Batman movies, Nolan surprises by one-upping you. He gives you more than you expected.

Christopher Nolan's dramatically and emotionally satisfying wrap-up to the Dark Knight trilogy adroitly avoids clichés and gleefully subverts your expectations at every turn.

This Knight not only rises, it also cuts deep -- not just as spectacular entertainment but also as harrowing drama.

Complex and comprehensive, beautiful if bloated, is nonetheless superlative filmmaking and even though over 160 minutes manages to rivet the senses in every frame.

Just a few quotes for a few film critics. It´s naive to think that only fanboys think these movies were great.

 

[Snow Queen]

http://youtu.be/r69N56plrDE?t=4m40s

"...the Chris Nolan Batman films are art films. Very successful, well told stories but also beautiful, visual art. I used to always hear 'if it makes a lot of money, it's no longer art, it's a blockbuster.' Kills the idea that anything can be artistic at all if it makes a lot of money and I don't believe that's true at all and I never have believed that." - Steven Spielberg

Paraphrasing as the interviewer interjects and he starts some sentences before changing how he starts them and such.

 

[Killer]

http://youtu.be/r69N56plrDE?t=4m40s

"...the Chris Nolan Batman films are art films. Very successful, well told stories but also beautiful, visual art. I used to always hear 'if it makes a lot of money, it's no longer art, it's a blockbuster.' Kills the idea that anything can be artistic at all if it makes a lot of money and I don't believe that's true at all and I never have believed that." - Steven Spielberg

Paraphrasing as the interviewer interjects and he starts some sentences before changing how he starts them and such.

He doesn´t count. He must be a Nolan fanboy.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I´m not sure i´ve seen anyone use the term "high art", but i´ve certainly seen both Begins and TDKR described as being amazing movies by people who aren´t Nolan "fanboys" (whatever that means).

Batman Begins















TDKR

















Just a few quotes for a few film critics. It´s naive to think that only fanboys think these movies were great.

Cherry picking reviews for hyperbole comments doesn't prove anything.

None of those comments refer to Begins or Rises as "high art" and similar comments can be found for just about any movie with above 80% of RT.

Do you consider any movie above 80% on RT to be high art?

 

[Rorschach2012]

Avengers is a comic book that comes to life.

People forget how great the first experience of seeing Avengers for the first time.

Loki, Cap, Hulk, Black Widow, Iron Man, Thor...

They all get their time in the sun and it's glorious.

After the first act, it fires on all cylinders. A true game changer in the superhero action movie genre.

Avengers is a comic book come to life...

but Batman Begins is too

If you've read Batman Year One, Batman Begins is almost a live action version of that.

I voted Batman Begins, but both are two of my all time favorite movies.

 

[Killer]

Cherry picking reviews for hyperbole comments doesn't prove anything.

None of those comments refer to Begins or Rises as "high art" and similar comments can be found for just about any movie with above 80% of RT.

Do you consider any movie above 80% on RT to be high art?

Yes, because "high art" isn´t exactly a term thrown around very often, if ever, in reviews. But the point is that plenty of people find the movies amazing. Now, if a piece of art being considered "great" isn´t the same as being "high art", then what is it? What kind of movie would you consider as "high art"? As far as i´m concerned, art isn´t exactly definable. What´s high art to you might be a piece of garbage to me. And to me, Batman Begins is high art, because it is one of my favorite movies ever, alongside with Goodfellas, 12 Angry Men, The Big Lebowski, Psycho, and several others. All these movies are amazing pieces of art to me. They´re very different from each other, but they´re all high art, relatively to their genre. The Avengers is too hollow to be in a list like that though. There´s nothing behind it, in the way i view it.

 

[kedrell]

Avengers quite handily, but at least this time it's between 2 films I actually liked as opposed to the Avengers vs TDK thread which I can't take seriously.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Avengers is a comic book come to life...

but Batman Begins is too

If you've read Batman Year One, Batman Begins is almost a live action version of that.

I voted Batman Begins, but both are two of my all time favorite movies.

So any movie based on a comic book warrants the phrase "comic book comes to life"?

There are over a hundred comic book movies and very few of them deserve the phrase "comic come to life".

When you watch such a movie there's a gut reaction that you would get reading various comics growing up.

It's not enough simply to base a movie on a comic book. In that case 2 Guns and The Losers would be considered "a comic come to life" just as much as 300 or Scott Pilgrim.

 

[Rorschach2012]

So any movie based on a comic book warrants the phrase "comic book comes to life"?

There are over a hundred comic book movies and very few of them deserve the phrase "comic come to life".

When you watch such a movie there's a gut reaction that you would get reading various comics growing up.

It's not enough simply to base a movie on a comic book. In that case 2 Guns and The Losers would be considered "a comic come to life" just as much as 300 or Scott Pilgrim.

Batman Begins is Batman Year One come to life. so it's a comic book come to life in my opinion.

 

[TalismanRing]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/batman_begins/#contentReviews

Batman Begins
RT Cream Of The Crop

63% Average Rating: 6.8/10
Reviews Counted: 52
Fresh: 33
Rotten: 19

Not exactly the critical consensus of high art.

Regardless, I really liked BB and it's my favorite of the Nolan Trilogy.

But my vote goes to The Avengers. The first act is the weakest but it builds and builds to dizzying fun. BB has the opposite trajectory.

 

[DA_Champion]

RT top critics rating is meaningless, it varies based on where you live.

 

[TalismanRing]

RT top critics rating is meaningless, it varies based on where you live.

Considering that the overwhelming majority of the reviews on RT are U.S. based then a consensus of 40-50 or so of the top U.S. critics is not exactly what I'd called meaningless.

They also make up the majority of Meta-critic which is flawed to say the least since many of the top reviewers whose reviews are given the most weight (Variety, Hollywood Reporter, NY Times, LA Times, TIME, New Yorker, WSJ, Village Voice, Salon etc) give ungraded reviews and the Meta-Critic staff assigns grades that often seem like they pull them out of their um rear while wearing fan goggles not bothering to actually read or maybe to be more generous comprehend the review.

 

[Killer]

Considering that the overwhelming majority of the reviews on RT are U.S. based then a consensus of 40-50 or so of the top U.S. critics is not exactly what I'd called meaningless.

They also make up the majority of Meta-critic which is flawed to say the least since many of the top reviewers whose reviews are given the most weight (Variety, Hollywood Reporter, NY Times, LA Times, TIME, New Yorker, WSJ, Village Voice, Salon etc) give ungraded reviews and the Meta-Critic staff assigns grades that often seem like they pull them out of their um rear while wearing fan goggles not bothering to actually read or maybe to be more generous comprehend the review.

So, all the other critics don´t count? We should only count those 40 or 50 critics? The other 200 plus critics are meaningless? And the public´s opinion is also meaningless?

It doesn´t matter if it is HIGH ART or LOW ART. The topic isn´t about that. The topic is about wich movie is better between these two. Whether you like it or not, Begins was a critically successful movie and represents a new and refreshing approach to the super hero genre.

 

[TalismanRing]

I'm not the one that brought in critics to bolster my opinion but I can spin them just as well as you can to make a point. Moreover, since this is a topic on Batman Begins vs Avengers it seems a little odd for you to rely so heavily on critical opinion when Avengers was far better reviewed.