BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 1

[RadioSha]

I didn't think it was clever.

*Batman is literally about to murder Superman*

"OH WAIT OUR MOMS HAVE THE SAME NAME!?! WOW LET'S BE BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!"

*Batman and Superman are now best friends forever*

How does Batman change his opinion so quickly? Throughout the entire film he is utterly convinced Superman must be destroyed. Nothing sways his opinion. He sees Superman as the end of mankind.

But all that goes out of the window because their mothers have the same name?

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS GOOD WRITING?!

I mean seriously i can see that working as some kind of common ground between the two characters. But not the SOLE reason for them becoming friends all of a sudden.

Having that be the reason for Bruce's complete 180 on Superman is so incredibly contrived. It's like a ****ing child wrote it.

I am a big defender of the Martha connection.

This was a moment that Batman saw Superman in a different light. And that is Superman is more human than he thought he was.

He is a person, just like any human on Earth, who loves a mother and seeing Lois come to his defense- someone who loves him as well. "Martha" doesn't make them friends immediately. He was irrational at that point and hearing that name made him even more emotional and confused. Only when Lois came by to remind him that it's Clark's mother's name, it humanizes Superman to his eyes.

It clicked that he was going after not an alien, or a god, or an outside force needing to be contained, but a person with a family, a history, struggles, and compassion.

"Save Martha" Even in near death, Superman is still thinking about another. I think it's a powerful scene. It worked. Watch it again.

 

[Poni_Boy]

I was just talking about the use of the common name for their mothers as a way to stop the fight. That's the part I like. I agree that the turnabout by batman was too sudden.

Now imagine if it was Lex who was about to kill Supes. Bats kicked his ass. Left him humiliated that a man in a metal suit could beat him, then went off back to Gotham. Gets an info dump in the Batwing from Alfred about Clark Kent that shows him bits of all the weird things he did in Smallville as a kid. Other kids ostracizing him. Adults shunning him. Then notes on his parents. Father died tragically. Mother still alive. Photo of her hugging him after Jonathan's death. Name is Martha. Bats freaks out. But instead. Of flashbacks of his parents deaths, flashbacks of his mothers hugging him, loving him. He realizes Clark is not only human but good and vulnerable. He swing the plane around and rescues him right before Lex kills him with the spear.

I'm no screenwriter but I think that scene had good thematic ideas it was just executed as backwards.

 

[Jaxon]

IM3's portrayal of PTSD was more realistic and believable.

Actually that's the one I didn't buy, thought it didn't make a lot of sense and didn't mean anything to that plot.

Bruce doesn't have PTSD it's just that the Battle of Metropolis tipped him over the edge and Superman makes his whole existence seem miniscule

 

[jaqua99]

Bruce certainly didn't have PTSD. He seemed like a rather raging antisocial.

 

[MrsKent26]

Now imagine if it was Lex who was about to kill Supes. Bats kicked his ass. Left him humiliated that a man in a metal suit could beat him, then went off back to Gotham. Gets an info dump in the Batwing from Alfred about Clark Kent that shows him bits of all the weird things he did in Smallville as a kid. Other kids ostracizing him. Adults shunning him. Then notes on his parents. Father died tragically. Mother still alive. Photo of her hugging him after Jonathan's death. Name is Martha. Bats freaks out. But instead. Of flashbacks of his parents deaths, flashbacks of his mothers hugging him, loving him. He realizes Clark is not only human but good and vulnerable. He swing the plane around and rescues him right before Lex kills him with the spear.

I'm no screenwriter but I think that scene had good thematic ideas it was just executed as backwards.

That's not a bad approach, but I find the idea that Bruce is now allowed to save a Martha when he is strong and able for another son juxtaposed with the scene where he lost his Martha as a vulnerable and helpless child quite powerful.

 

[The Endless]

Actually that's the one I didn't buy, thought it didn't make a lot of sense and didn't mean anything to that plot.

Bruce doesn't have PTSD it's just that the Battle of Metropolis tipped him over the edge and Superman makes his whole existence seem miniscule

Tony's PTSD was the driving force of his arc. His PTSD drove him to create a billion armours. But throughout the course of the movie he realized that HE is Iron Man, with or without armour. Him blowing the armours up at the end was his cartharsis.

Plus his actual panic attacks where he went dizzy and struggled to breath were actually quite realistic, even with the Shane Black spin on them.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Bruce certainly didn't have PTSD. He seemed like a rather raging antisocial.

Alcoholic, night terrors, hallucinations, violent outbursts, antisocial tendencies, childhood trauma are all pin point indicators of complex PTSD. If they didn't want him to have it they sure went out of their way to show that he did.

 

[Jekecy]

I am a big defender of the Martha connection.

This was a moment that Batman saw Superman in a different light. And that is Superman is more human than he thought he was.

He is a person, just like any human on Earth, who loves a mother and seeing Lois come to his defense- someone who loves him as well. "Martha" doesn't make them friends immediately. He was irrational at that point and hearing that name made him even more emotional and confused. Only when Lois came by to remind him that it's Clark's mother's name, it humanizes Superman to his eyes.

It clicked that he was going after not an alien, or a god, or an outside force needing to be contained, but a person with a family, a history, struggles, and compassion.

"Save Martha" Even in near death, Superman is still thinking about another. I think it's a powerful scene. It worked. Watch it again.

Someone with some sense. This "did we just become best friends?!" meme is juvenile of the worst kind. Fine if you want to poke fun for the sake of some entertainment, using it in an actual discussion is mind-numbingly lazy.

I have to question if BvS was a better movie, with this same exact scene, if it would attract the same responses.

 

[Radster85]

OMG, many people have problems with understanding anything. Don't recommed you grabbing any book if a movie is a tough task
Bats went crazy after Superman and when comes to "Martha moment" he discovers himself in Clark, he sees a human (not an alien as before). Bruce comes back to sanity after saving Superman's mom. Alfred said earlier that Bruce is DIFFERENT. That moment after battle "clicks" for Bats.
Haters gonna hate. "Some men just want to watch the world burn"
I might try to watch marvel movies and then carp all them flaws.. but I won't, that's childish plus I'm not interested in funny cbms.
Some deserve their own new thread called sandpit.
Meanwhile WB is counting $$$ flowing in

 

[Poni_Boy]

That's not a bad approach, but I find the idea that Bruce is now allowed to save a Martha when he is strong and able for another son juxtaposed with the scene where he lost his Martha as a vulnerable and helpless child quite powerful.

He could still do that. Just have Bats find out about the kidnapping after he rescues Supes from Lex. Hell have him beat the location of the warehouse out of Lex. Bat fans would freaking love it. Bats and Supes rescue Martha together. World's Finest moment right there. While they're gone Lex goes and creates Doomsday because he knows he's been busted and Batman will probably try to kill him. Creating Doomsday should be an act of total desperation from a man that cannot stand the thought of losing to "lesser beings." Because unleashing Doomsday could literally destroy the world. It doesn't matter to Lex because if he's defeated, the world is meaningless.

 

[LostSon88]

I didn't think it was clever.

*Batman is literally about to murder Superman*

"OH WAIT OUR MOMS HAVE THE SAME NAME!?! WOW LET'S BE BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!"

*Batman and Superman are now best friends forever*

How does Batman change his opinion so quickly? Throughout the entire film he is utterly convinced Superman must be destroyed. Nothing sways his opinion. He sees Superman as the end of mankind.

But all that goes out of the window because their mothers have the same name?

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS GOOD WRITING?!

I mean seriously i can see that working as some kind of common ground between the two characters. But not the SOLE reason for them becoming friends all of a sudden.

Having that be the reason for Bruce's complete 180 on Superman is so incredibly contrived. It's like a ****ing child wrote it.

Way to oversimplify it dude.

It's what the name represents. Bruce spent the past 18 months caught up in his obsession and this image of what Superman was. His focus was linear and strictly on destroying the "threat".

Hearing the name Martha triggered something in him. Upon learning it was the name of Clarks mother it immediately humanized Superman in his eyes for the first time.

All of the sudden he saw Clark not as an alien threat but as a MAN.

 

[The Endless]

Someone with some sense. This "did we just become best friends?!" meme is juvenile of the worst kind. Fine if you want to poke fun for the sake of some entertainment, using it in an actual discussion is mind-numbingly lazy.

I have to question if BvS was a better movie, with this same exact scene, if it would attract the same responses.

All the criminals Batman has ever fought have mothers...

Throughout the entire movie Bruce is utterly convinced that Superman needs to be destroyed. That someone with all that power is an inherent threat to humanity.

He does a complete 180 on this just because Superman has a mother? So having a mother means Superman will never go rogue? The Joker has a mother right?

I can see Batman easing up, but having no more than a grudging respect for Superman. The way Bruce is portrayed throughout the film it simply doesn't make sense that all his fears about Superman would just vanish. Somewhere inside him he will still have reservations and paranoia. If we go how he was written up to that point.

 

[Batmannerism]

4.5/10 first time viewing

7/10 second time viewing. The great stuff really do outweigh the bad. Second time around it felt more fun because I just went in wanting to see these characters again and not worry about poor characterizations, too many subplots, still a bit jarring pacing, and that abortion of a Lex Luthor.

I went in there wanting to have fun and you do. You get moved by scenes that you usually don't get moved by. You laughed at the jokes. And personally, I love everything about Batman.

Once you get past the first viewing, it becomes EXPONENTIALLY less dreary. I swear. I'm not kidding. I enjoyed myself a lot even when there were glaring problems, as I mentioned before.

This is music to my ears. I'm going for a second look tomorrow - after being very disappointed the first time.

Cheers for that

 

[Poni_Boy]

All the criminals Batman has ever fought have mothers...

Throughout the entire movie Bruce is utterly convinced that Superman needs to be destroyed. That someone with all that power is an inherent threat to humanity.

He does a complete 180 on this just because Superman has a mother?

To believe that you would also have to believe that Batman thinks Superman was born through osmosis. Why would being "human" make Batman more sympathetic to someone who's killed thousands of people when he's killed other "criminals" for a whole lot less? Were those criminals not borne of women?

 

[The Joker]

I am a big defender of the Martha connection.

This was a moment that Batman saw Superman in a different light. And that is Superman is more human than he thought he was.

He is a person, just like any human on Earth, who loves a mother and seeing Lois come to his defense- someone who loves him as well. "Martha" doesn't make them friends immediately. He was irrational at that point and hearing that name made him even more emotional and confused. Only when Lois came by to remind him that it's Clark's mother's name, it humanizes Superman to his eyes.

It clicked that he was going after not an alien, or a god, or an outside force needing to be contained, but a person with a family, a history, struggles, and compassion.

"Save Martha" Even in near death, Superman is still thinking about another. I think it's a powerful scene. It worked. Watch it again.

What did he think, that Superman was found under a cabbage leaf, or delivered by the stork as a baby? Of course he has a mother. So do all the evil scumbag criminals he fights have mothers. The Joker has a mother. Everyone has a mother.

It was flowery schlock that whole Martha thing, and a pitiful way to end the fight.

 

[Jekecy]

All the criminals Batman has ever fought have mothers...

Throughout the entire movie Bruce is utterly convinced that Superman needs to be destroyed. That someone with all that power is an inherent threat to humanity.

He does a complete 180 on this just because Superman has a mother? So having a mother means Superman will never go rogue? The Joker has a mother right?

I can see Batman easing up, but having no more than a grudging respect for Superman. The way Bruce is portrayed throughout the film it simply doesn't make sense that all his fears about Superman would just vanish. Somewhere inside him he will still have reservations and paranoia. If we go how he was written up to that point.

"Martha" has a specifically poignant importance to Bruce, for very obvious reasons. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Proximity to a personal experience can greatly impact decisions which otherwise would have been left uncontested. What is so hard about that to comprehend?

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

glad your second viewing was a good experience radiosha.

i thought by now i'd be thinking 'well, i guess i could at least check it out again,' but my gut is saying, blu ray will be fine. this is the most shocking thing to me about this movie.

 

[Poni_Boy]

What did he think, that Superman was found under a cabbage leaf, or delivered by the stork as a baby? Of course he has a mother. So do all the evil scumbag criminals he fights have mothers. The Joker has a mother. Everyone has a mother.

It was flowery schlock that whole Martha thing, and a pitiful way to end the fight.

Swear to god I hope Ayer (who has a twisted sense of humor) adds a Martha tattoo to Joker in post production. Would help make sense why Batman hasn't killed him since Martha is like instant Zoloft for Bruce.

 

[RadioSha]

Way to oversimplify it dude.

It's what the name represents. Bruce spent the past 18 months caught up in his obsession and this image of what Superman was. His focus was linear and strictly on destroying the "threat".

Hearing the name Martha triggered something in him. Upon learning it was the name of Clarks mother it immediately humanized Superman in his eyes for the first time.

All of the sudden he saw Clark not as an alien threat but as a MAN.

Yeah it's all those things + what I just said. Superman's not someone above him or below him. He finally sees Superman AT HIS LEVEL.

 

[The Endless]

"Martha" has a specifically poignant importance to Bruce, for very obvious reasons. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Proximity to a personal experience can greatly impact decisions which otherwise would have been left uncontested. What is so hard about that to comprehend?

It's not hard to understand. It just simply doesn't make sense in terms of the characterisation of Bruce up to that point.

I just cannot buy his complete 180 at the realization that Superman, who he is convinced will bring about Armageddon, has a mother named Martha. It is terrible writing that simply isn't consistent with what has happened previously in the movie.

I can buy Bruce giving Superman more of a chance. But becoming best buddies and all of a sudden being inspired to be a better person? It all just rings false and unearned... like the ending to Man of Steel.

 

[RadioSha]

What did he think, that Superman was found under a cabbage leaf, or delivered by the stork as a baby? Of course he has a mother. So do all the evil scumbag criminals he fights have mothers. The Joker has a mother. Everyone has a mother.

It was flowery schlock that whole Martha thing, and a pitiful way to end the fight.

?

No, he sees him as an alien. It doesn't register in his brain that he can love or have family or any of that stuff.

He is so clouded and enraged by what he is capable of doing that he didn't stop to think that this person has someone in his life he loves- or that he has a mother who loves him or a woman who loves him. He doesn't see him as a person in his race at all.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Yeah it's all those things + what I just said. Superman's not someone above him or below him. He finally sees Superman AT HIS LEVEL.

Please answer this: so having a mother named Martha means Superman is human, right? Does it also mean he wasn't responsible for the thousands who died in Metropolis? Because I can't remember one moment in the whole movie where Batman wanted to kill Superman because he was inhuman. He wanted to kill him because he already caused thousands of deaths and can kill millions.

 

[Jumpman]

Unbelievable, this thread.

I didn't think the covers still could get any worse after MAN OF STEEL for three years. Clearly, I was way off.

 

[LostSon88]

To believe that you would also have to believe that Batman thinks Superman was born through osmosis. Why would being "human" make Batman more sympathetic to someone who's killed thousands of people when he's killed other "criminals" for a whole lot less? Were those criminals not borne of women?

Superman didn't blatantly kill those civilians. That was Zod. But during the battle all Bruce saw was two aliens in a battle royal killing thousands in the process. That was his only frame of context and reference. That's all he had and that's all he wanted/needed to know.

The sympathy comes from the sudden realization that as Alfred had tried to tell him earlier in the movie, Superman is not the enemy. The mention of his mother destroyed all preconceived notions he had about him.

Frankly, Bruce relenting has much less to do with garnering sympathy to Clark than it does him realizing that he's misread this entire situation.

Granted yes, it doesn't change the fact that thousands were killed as collateral damage. But it does change the fact that maybe Bruce was going about this completely the wrong way and was blinded by pure rage, hatred and paranoia.

 

[The Joker]

Swear to god I hope Ayer (who has a twisted sense of humor) adds a Martha tattoo to Joker in post production. Would help make sense why Batman hasn't killed him since Martha is like instant Zoloft for Bruce.

That would be worth the price of a ticket alone lol.

?

No, he sees him as an alien. It doesn't register in his brain that he can love or have family or any of that stuff.

He is so clouded and enraged by what he is capable of doing that he didn't stop to think that this person has someone in his life he loves- or that he has a mother who loves him or a woman who loves him. He doesn't see him as a person in his race at all.

But he sees petty thug criminals not even a fifth of the potential threat Superman is as humans and in his race, and knows they are capable of family and love, but he has no problem gunning them down and running them over needlessly in his tricked out Bat vehicles. But an alien who can bring about Armageddon is let off the hook because he has a Mom.

Like I said, flowery schlock.