BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 1

[Poni_Boy]

As I see it...

Batman recently lost his track, ditched his no killing rule after the events in MOS changed everything. He felt he needed to step up his game or just be absolete. He decided right there that Superman (an alien) is a threat to mankind and needed to go. Superman was rarely seen in public, Bats figured reasoning with him was out of the question. Lex struck gold with manipulating Batman when he was at his weakest, he wasn't thinking straight. Hunted by nightmares from a future that was bound to happen, afterall he got a message from the future.

Superman at his mercy, asking to save Martha confused Batman. His reasoning didn't make any sense anymore. Why would and Alien care about "Martha"? (Remember that this is a Universe where time travel and other dimensions are a given). He got confused about the Martha thing, Lois answering "It's his mother!". Straight up and changed everything, it made Superman human (if only for a moment) and one that could be reasoned with. It made him a goodguy essentially. He cared more about his mother than about himself.

I get that train of thought but it doesn't make sense within the context of the film because Batman has already killed before. People who have caused less destruction than Superman. People who also have mothers. People who are "human."

Humanizing Superman does not stop him from being a threat to the world, which is the reason Batman "needs" to destroy him.

 

[LostSon88]

Because he has a mother? That's literally the only thing that changed


I swear, guys, take a step back and look at it logically without filling in the holes with your comics knowledge.

Let put ourselves in that type of scenario:

You've got a known killer at gunpoint when his wife/son/daughter/etc. shows up and pleads for you to not shoot.

What do you do?

Logically you would pull the trigger on your belief that this person will probably kill again, right? Question is, will you?

 

[Jekecy]

Wow. You guys are really not noticing how you're piecing together plot holes with your comics stick glue? Nothing in the movie correlates to the association that Superman having a mother means he's no longer a threat. Nothing. You can be ok with that, it doesn't have to bother you, but acting like there's cohesion in that lapse of logic is futile. It's a total non sequitur. It does not follow formal logic.

The baseline of the feud is an irrational fear and improbable certainty fed from Bruce's paranoia. It's not an imaginary leap to arrive at the neutral position (of Supes being good and not taking action otherwise).

The Martha bit is what snaps him to reality and looking at it from a reasoned point of view. The only "lapse of logic" is the one the character took from the onset. The resolution is perfectly in line with how many already perceived the situation in the first place (like Alfred). It just took a dramatic showing for Bruce to get there.

 

[Poni_Boy]

The baseline of the feud is an irrational fear and improbable certainty fed from Bruce's paranoia. It's not an imaginary leap to arrive at the neutral position (of Supes being good and not taking action otherwise).

The Martha bit is what snaps him to reality and looking at it from a reasoned point of view. The only "lapse of logic" is the one the character took from the onset. The resolution is perfectly in line with how many already perceived the situation in the first place (like Alfred). It just took a dramatic showing for Bruce to get there.

No, it's a non sequitur. A fallacy of the undistributed middle. The two statements "Superman has a mother" and "Superman is no longer a threat" are a syllogistic fallacy.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Let put ourselves in that type of scenario:

You've got a known killer at gunpoint when his wife/son/daughter/etc. shows up and pleads for you to not shoot.

What do you do?

Logically you would pull the trigger on your belief that this person will probably kill again, right? Question is, will you?

Expanded for accuracy to the argument:

You, a person who has already taken the law into his own hands and killed criminals before, has got a known killer at gunpoint, who you believe has killed a dozen people and has the capability to kill dozens more, when his wife/son/daughter/etc. shows up and pleads for you to not shoot.

What do you do?

Logically you would pull the trigger on your belief that this person will probably kill again, right? Question is, will you?

The answer is 'yes' because I have A. killed before so I have moral indifference to it, and B. I am convinced he can will again on a larger scale.

 

[Jekecy]

No, it's a non sequitur. A fallacy of the undistributed middle. The two statements "Superman has a mother" and "Superman is no longer a threat" are a syllogistic fallacy.

You've misconstrued the logical through-line. You've skipped important pieces in that equation mucking up the final solution (1+2+3 = 6 vs 1+3 = 6). Of course it's going to look off.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Not to sidetrack but I have an honest question. Do they not teach logic in school anymore? Not "logic" as in trying to be insulting (I am absolutely not), but actual logical theorum and non sequiturs? Because I can get if what I'm saying doesn't click if you don't understand logic (i.e. All Zs are Bs but all Bs are not Zs)

 

[LostSon88]

Moral indifference to killing...even in the presence of that persons loved one pleading with you not to do it?

Keeping in mind that you yourself recall the trauma of witnessing your loved ones murdered right in front of you...which Bruce did the moment he heard the name, "Martha".

 

[Poni_Boy]

You've misconstrued the logical through-line. You've skipped important pieces in that equation mucking up the final solution (1+2+3 = 6 vs 1+3 = 6). Of course it's going to look off.

It's off because it doesn't make logical sense. It's not math, that doesn't work. Here:

Superman is a threat, threats must be destroyed, therefore Superman must be destroyed

Killing humans is ok, Superman is human, therefore killing Superman is ok

Humans have mothers, criminals are humans, therefore criminals have mothers

What you guys are saying is:

Superman has a mother, Superman is human, so Superman is no longer a threat

 

[Poni_Boy]

Moral indifference to killing...even in the presence of that persons loved one pleading with you not to do it?

Keeping in mind that you yourself recall the trauma of witnessing your loved ones murdered right in front of you...which Bruce did the moment he heard the name, "Martha".

Yes. Because it has nothing to do with why I was going to execute him to begin with. Anecdotal kinship does not cancel out motivation.

Batman has killed before. He's ok with it. So it shouldn't bother him at all. That is the reasoning that makes sense in accordance to the facts of the story.

 

[Fedor]

Actually I think you misunderstood that scene.

I think Bruce realises how far he's gone when he hears the name Martha. It's the fact that Superman has a human mother when Bruce realises that Supetman is more human than he thought. He thought he was killing a godlike being, it shows how far Bruce has fallen and he realises.

Even though you´re right, there´s a lot of "thinking" in your post.

Divisive is the word if not even CMB fans can come to an understanding. How do you think the GA feels about scenes like this and the whole movie being full of em?

Ok, long read incoming.....

The below is not towards you BH/HHH, just my thoughts of the whole situation and why I can´t understand people giving this movie high rating in hope for it to have a positive effect, as it actually has the opposite. Of course, people can have their own opinion but somewhere I believe many in here are doing everything they can to protect the movie, without taking in account how huge of a negative impact it may have in doing so.

You may all think that those of us bashing on Snyder and wishing him off the project are pure haters, but this isn´t the case. Not at all, most of the superherohypster´s actually tend to have freakishly valid points on what´s good and not, what would work and what wouldn´t. Isn´t that what we are doing here? Aren´t we all hoping for the GA to discover this genre och love it in order to make it acceptable and grow even more?

Heck, this might sound crazy but if a group of members in here were to get a €500 million budget to create and produce a Batman/Superman movie based on all the knowledge on this forum.....oh man, that´s a movie that would break all records for sure. Guaranteed to have 150 minutes of constant goosebumping-action and joyful tears resulting in uplifting climax moments. A movie that would end all wars on earth

We all want the DCEU to succeed. We all want our non-CMB-friends to show us their goosebumps while watching a movie we´ve introduced to them. Show them a world that we´ve been in for so long and getting them to love it.

This movie was to lay the foundation for DCEU and get us all hyped up for JL and the rest of the slate, right? I´m also guessing a lot of people in here has marketed and hyped up both MOS and BvS through the years towards friends and family, am I right? At least I have.

If the hype dies due to numerous anti climax moments like this, which is what´s happening as of now, it´s bound to fail. Especially if we keep hyping and introducing these anti climax to the GA.


Ok I´m done...

 

[TeeKay]

Batfleck logic; I will kill petty thugs not even one fifth the potential threat level Superman is. I know they're human beings with mothers, capable of family, love and all that other stuff but they shall die anyway. An alien who can bring about armageddon not only has a Mom, but she is also called Martha - you may live.

Someone remind me why this sort of brilliance level writing is sitting on 29% on RT because I don't get it

That Martha scene was as stupid as Pa Kent committing suicide in Mos.

 

[Poni_Boy]

That Martha scene was as stupid as Pa Kent committing suicide in Mos.

My son has superspeed, my son can safe me, therefore I will die to make him feel bad later in life

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Speaking of Martha...the Martha photos are sick. The blurred photo with white eyes and stuff...awful, like a horror movie or something. Probably inspired by The Killing Joke.

 

[Greens]

Speaking of Martha...the Martha photos are sick. The blurred photo with white eyes and stuff...awful, like a horror movie or something. Probably inspired by The Killing Joke.

Yeah those pictures were pretty disturbing.

 

[Jekecy]

It's off because it doesn't make logical sense. It's not math, that doesn't work. Here:

Superman is a threat, threats must be destroyed, therefore Superman must be destroyed

Killing humans is ok, Superman is human, therefore killing Superman is ok

Humans have mothers, criminals are humans, therefore criminals have mothers

What you guys are saying is:

Superman has a mother, Superman is human, so Superman is no longer a threat

Your several conversations with others is bleeding into mine. I can't speak for them, so here's what I'm saying:

1) Superman is an alien
2) Superman has done good
3) In spite of well intention, casualties still amass from collateral
4) History indicates there is a (small) chance benevolence turns to malevolence
5) If it does, consequences will be dire

The Martha bit (which I won't rewrite as I'm sure you're aware of the main talking points) cancels out 1. 2 & 3 stays the same, but also applies to himself. 5 relies on 4 becoming true.

Batman was already in the process of going through all stages himself until the callback to the murders stops him. Martha connects them to their moralities. Something Bruce is blind and unaware of at the beginning (because his baseline was only point 1). The potential outcome (4 & 5) doesn't necessarily get extinguished, but if Bruce starts to consider Clark an equal, then he's prone to the same virtues and faults as anyone else. Bruce witnessed first hand how his personal anchor brought him back. He now sees Clark has a similar through-line with empathy.

This isn't a matter of 1+1=2, the equation is far more complex and fluid. Once you change or remove one factor, everything shuffles around. You're right, it's not simple math. But I've not argued it was.

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

i agree about the pictures, way over the top. tho i did love using them as a device to get superman to 'bow' before lex.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Your several conversations with others is bleeding into mine. I can't speak for them, so here's what I'm saying:

1) Superman is an alien
2) Superman has done good
3) In spite of well intention, casualties still amass from collateral
4) History indicates there is a (small) chance benevolence turns to malevolence
5) If it does, consequences will be dire

The Martha bit (which I won't rewrite as I'm sure you're aware of the main talking points) cancels out 1. 2 & 3 stays the same, but also applies to himself. 5 relies on 4 becoming true.

Batman was already in the process of going through all stages himself until the callback to the murders stops him. Martha connects them to their moralities. Something Bruce is blind and unaware of at the beginning (because his baseline was only point 1). The potential outcome (4 & 5) doesn't necessarily get extinguished, but if Bruce starts to consider Clark an equal, then he's prone to the same virtues and faults as anyone else. Bruce witnessed first hand how his personal anchor brought him back. He now sees Clark has a similar through-line with empathy.

This isn't a matter of 1+1=2, the equation is far more complex and fluid, as hopefully I've succinctly outlined.

Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute...

Now you're saying that Superman isn't an alien? When Bruce specifically calls him one over and over? And everyone in the world knows he is? And he even SAYS he is?

Again, no logic here.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Yeah those pictures were pretty disturbing.

He probably cut off her fingers and gave them to Superman in the original script.

 

[Jekecy]

Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute...

Now you're saying that Superman isn't an alien? When Bruce specifically calls him one over and over? And everyone in the world knows he is? And he even SAYS he is?

Again, no logic here.

That's what you got from it? Where is the logic in that?

The debate has been entirely focused on Bruce seeing Clark as more than a simple demigod extraterrestrial. The resolution shifts him into a position of acknowledging Supes as a fellow "human being". Human, not in physiology. The other thing. Do I need to spell that out, because I suspect you already knew all this.

 

[Poni_Boy]

That's what you got from it? Where is the logic in that?

The debate has been entirely focused on Bruce seeing Clark as more than a simple demigod extraterrestrial. The resolution shifts him into a position of acknowledging Supes as a fellow "human being". Human, not in physiology. The other thing. Do I need to spell that out, because I suspect you already knew all this.

Yes that's what I got from it. You couldn't even put it into a path of logic. Honestly what's this 1,2,3,4,5=eleventy-billion stuff? Guys, logic is logic.

Explain this in logical theory so it makes sense. If you cannot, then it doesn't make sense. That's really the end of it. Every writer be it for TV, movies, novels, etc knows this. It's logical cause and effect.

EDIT: If you need a hand use this logic calculator http://www.ece.umd.edu/~yavuz/logiccalc.html

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

thanks, poni boy, i needed a little salt for these hashbrowns.

 

[Jekecy]

Yes that's what I got from it. You couldn't even put it into a path of logic. Honestly what's this 1,2,3,4,5=eleventy-billion stuff? Guys, logic is logic.

Explain this in logical theory so it makes sense. If you cannot, then it doesn't make sense. That's really the end of it. Every writer be it for TV, movies, novels, etc knows this. It's logical cause and effect.

EDIT: If you need a hand use this logic calculator http://www.ece.umd.edu/~yavuz/logiccalc.html

My last paragraph very clearly denotes where the line of thinking was on Bruce's part. Going back to "that's not LOGICAL" is no more useful or progressive than me shouting back, "it's completely LOGICAL".

This whole logic theory facade (talk about flexing) is only belaboring the subject into I don't even know what. We are not robots, two people should be able to communicate properly and successfully without hard calculations. I've attempted to be concise as possible, but seemingly I'll only be met with "your words are basic and meaningless, translate it into a theory" spiel. While this time was spent unwisely on my part, I'll rejoice in taking part in an internet debate where someone literally pulled out a calculator as a retort.

 

[Poni_Boy]

My last paragraph very clearly denotes where the line of thinking was on Bruce's part. Going back to "that's not LOGICAL" is no more useful or progressive than me shouting back, "it's completely LOGICAL".

This whole logic theory facade (talk about flexing) is only belaboring the subject into I don't even know what. I've attempted to be concise as possible, but seemingly I'll only be met with "your words are basic and meaningless, translate it into a theory" spiel.

But again you're not explaining it. Let's recap:

"The baseline of the feud is an irrational fear and improbable certainty fed from Bruce's paranoia."

On point

"It's not an imaginary leap to arrive at the neutral position (of Supes being good and not taking action otherwise)."

Aaaand lost me. It IS an imaginary leap. That's all on the viewer. That's a personal assumption. That has nothing to do with the movie, it has to do with YOUR knowledge of these characters outside the movie. If that's not true, where is it?

You guys are saying "Batman saw that Superman has a mother and therefore is no longer a threat." And that makes no sense. Once again:

"He has the power to wipe out the entire human race and if we believe there is even a one percent chance that he is our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty."

What was the catalyst for Batman to realize Superman should not be destroyed? Having a mother? Having a mother =/= he won't cause the deaths of millions. And I'm sorry man but middle school logical theory is not flexing anything.

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

anyone seen a list of dc easter eggs from bvs?