BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

[Tacit Ronin]

Superman works better as a moses allegory anyways.

 

[Monochron]

It's layed on real heavy that he's Jesus and Darkseid is going to be Satan.

I'm sure Darkseid will tempt him to join him.

 

[Snow Queen]

And then he will spend 40 days in the Knightmare sequence.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I thought Doomsday was Satan? Lexinberg even spelled it out.

 

[Monochron]

I thought Doomsday was Satan? Lexinberg even spelled it out.

It's allegorical, anything can be anything.

It's why in "A Thesis on Man of Steel" video the narrator suggest that Superman is Jesus but he is also not Jesus.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's allegorical, anything can be anything.

Sounds like something Snyder would say.

 

[Lily Adler]

It would make Jor-El God, but make Batman Judas?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

No. Bats is just Bats.

 

[shauner111]

Bats is just Trump in all of this.

 

[Lily Adler]

Lex is some bizarre amalgamation of Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg with an abusive father that created some warped perception of what constitutes a God.

 

[chintai80]

batman is apostle paul.

apostle paul first persecuted jesus' followers but then converted and formed the early christian church.

like how batman first persecuted superman then had a change of heart and decided to form the justice league after being inspired by superman.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

So that rapist at the beginning was a Superman follower?

 

[Monochron]

Sounds like something Snyder would say.

Ouch, that hurts.

 

[chintai80]

So that rapist at the beginning was a Superman follower?

no, that's just batman beating on a rapist. sometimes a spoon is just a spoon.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

sometimes a spoon is just a spoon.

Are you telling me the film's poor screenplay is just a poor screenplay, and not a misunderstood work of art?

 

[Lily Adler]

That's crazy talk.

 

[chintai80]

Are you telling me the film's poor screenplay is just a poor screenplay, and not a misunderstood work of art?

its a poor screenplay.

either that or i just suck at understanding snyder's movies.

(jk...i liked each of snyder's movies i've seen up until bvs)

bvs has been such a disappointment for me i'm not that keen on seeing anymore movies by snyder.

 

[shauner111]

Lex is some bizarre amalgamation of Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg with an abusive father that created some warped perception of what constitutes a God.

Throw in some 95' Edward Nygma in there.

 

[antoineflemming]

batman is apostle paul.

apostle paul first persecuted jesus' followers but then converted and formed the early christian church.

like how batman first persecuted superman then had a change of heart and decided to form the justice league after being inspired by superman.

Paul didn't "form" the early Christian church. He persecuted the church and then joined it.

You can't compare Batman to Paul.

 

[antoineflemming]

Superman works better as a moses allegory anyways.

No, he doesn't. Moses saved his own people. Superman isn't saving Kryptonians. He's never been a Moses allegory. He's always been closer to a Jesus allegory. He's the only son of Jor-El (El being the Hebrew word for God). Superman comes to earth and saves a people that isn't his own, a people who by all accounts are lesser than he is. But, either way, the analogy ends there because Superman isn't saving people from their sins.

 

[matt47]

I thought Doomsday was Satan? Lexinberg even spelled it out.

Lex was all over the place with his ideals.

 

[The Guard]

yeah why is this even a question I'm kind of baffled?
He's a good person who knows that he can do good with his powers... This is like asking why any protagonist in any movie ever is a good person.
He's shown saving the bus with his classmates on it at a young age, because he knows he can do it, so why let them drown? This is reflected later in the conversation he has with Pa. Why does there have to be a "reason" that he's doing good?

This. So tired of this complaint.

The reason why he becomes SUPERMAN is fully explored in MAN OF STEEL.

The reason why a person chooses to help people should not be something that needs to be explained.

That said, there's an element of "You can do amazing things and you're going to change the world with that" to Pa Kent's lessons in MAN OF STEEL, and that's the core of why Superman has always done good things. Because aside from being a
good person, he can do so.

It's pretty clear the Kents are decent, compassionate people.

 

[shauner111]

I never had a problem with them not telling us why he saves people. But i don't like it when people use the defense that his parents taught him great values. I don't think they did. Not every child follows in their parents footsteps. But Pa Kent especially taught him some of the worst s**t.

 

[NateHevens]

Nonsense.
Zack knows how to tell a story too.
If BvS doesn't satisfy you, what about 300, DotD, MoS?

300 was mindless fun. I liked it better than any of the Transformer films. But that's saying almost nothing.

My opinion on DotD is biased because I'm not really in to horror as a genre and I got bored with zombies a long time ago anyways. I do see why DotD is well-liked, but it wasn't for me.

I did not like MoS, though I sincerely tried.

I will say that I actually liked Watchmen on my initial viewing, but that's because I went into the film not even knowing it was based on a comic (I know I know... that makes me a failure of a comics fan). My opinion of the film actually soured a bit after reading the comic.

I get that a lot of people don't see or feel arcs in BvS but, 1.) those things are determined heavily by the script, and 2.) BvS HAS arcs, and they are pretty carefully constructed and layered in the visuals and the dialogue. A lot of other people have said the same, a lot of people aren't digging it but all that stuff is there, I'm not delusional here or I would be the only one seeing this stuff...

I guess... I mean... I really just don't agree. I know I'll be seeing it a second time in the near future because Dad wants to see it with me, so maybe I'll be more privy to what you're talking about then. But for my first viewing, I saw absolutely none of what you're saying is there.

Yeah, he'd probably make a better cinematographer or visual consultant of some kind. Or even co-director. The problem with him is that he seems oblivious to his weaknesses or simply disagrees that he has them. The bigger problem is that WB is acting as his enabler.

Agreed 100%.

Paraphrase would be more accurate, quote was the wrong word, but it's the same message in both cases.

"If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response."

“Count the dead: thousands of people. What’s next? Millions? He has the power to wipe out the entire human race, and if we believe there’s even a one percent chance that he is our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty.”

Wow. I never caught that, but... damn. That's... that's not good.

Oof. If one (mis)interprets BvS in that particular way, I guess it WOULD seem terrible. That article feels like it was written by somebody who said, "I think Snyder is probably a Republican, this movie is probably trying to challenge my worldview, I think I'll make this all about Donald Trump." WTF?

Check your baggage, David Crow.

To be completely fair, Zack Snyder is an Objectivist, which is basically the conservative/Republican version of Libertarianism. And I do think he tries to shoehorn that into Superman, who I see as the exact opposite of an Objectivist.

But let's be careful, here, as this isn't really a political thread...

Yes. And it may not even be strictly about taste. People may not agree with the ideas it's putting forth, or they may not find it compelling. They may take issue with certain choices or with how characters are presented. And that's all absolutely okay.

See, the thing is, I disagree with you that the film is well put together. Maybe the Ultimate Cut will make me feel differently, but I'm skeptical just from knowing that the full movie was 4 hours and the UC only gives us an extra 30 minutes. Assuming that whole 4 hours was completely filmed and produced, I'd prefer to see it all.

Just to let you know, I've written five pages so far and am probably not even halfway through, though I'm done for the night. Let me know now if you can even be arsed to read something like this before I put in any more of my time working on it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would actually read it.

I don't think that "you're parents taught you..." comment means much. He knows superman probably has a mother somewhere, but it's just an empty fact. He hasn't felt in yet, in the heat of rage. That comment is just meant to be a taunt. The mothers having the same name and hearing that another Martha was in trouble made it more personal. The name draws his attention, makes him think. Then the gravity of what he's doing clicks into place. He saw superman as an "other" and the common name and situation lets him see this alien as a human. It's easy to dismiss the idea that an "other" has a mother in theory, because everyone has one. When that other's mother has the same name and is about to be killed just like Bruce's was...that's another matter.

I guess you could say both are true: the commonality of having a mother does make batman see superman as a human, but he only stopped and considered this when he heard that specific name. He wasn't "shocked" that superman has a mother (logically, he knew this, but it hadn't registered emotionally); he was just forced to feel it, to feel empathy because of the memories of his own mother superman stirred up. That's how I saw it.

Ha! That actually explains the scene pretty dang well. But I didn't see any of this in the scene at all, and that, IMO, is part of the problem.

Yeah, most of the problems with these movies is not the actors. The casting overall, minus one or two exceptions, has been great. It's the writing and direction. Can't blame the actors for that.

Agreed. That acting is as good as it possibly can be on both films, IMO. I don't blame any of the actors (not even Jesse Eisenberg, honestly) for either film.

Like so much else with these films, it's the definition of contrived.
We need Pa Kent to die, so we're gonna have him run with open arms into a tornado.
We need Superman and Batman to be pals, so we're gonna have Clark refer to his mom by her first name which he's never done previously, and then have Lois come just in the nick of time to explain to Batman what he's saying.
We need a giant third act climax, so Lex is going to create a giant monster he can't control with no real plan.
We need

Spoiler

Superman to die, so forget about Wonder Woman, we're going to have Superman use the weapon made from the only thing that can weaken him to stab the monster, thereby making himself vulnerable.

Exactly. There's no thread holding it all together.

Or, to be entirely fair, I personally failed to see a thread tying it all together.

I cringed a bit when he wanted to silence Lois instead of have an actual discussion about what happened. Yes it led to a sexy bathtub sex scene, but I wanted more dialogue. Also the scene where he damages the Batmobile and instead of debate on Bruce's brutal tactics or anything their first meeting in costume is just the "Do you bleed line?" and "The Bat is dead..." I wanted more interaction.

My main problem with Snyder and Goyer was that they had ideas for Superman but never translated well on screen. Why have a montage of heroics when you could have something as epic as the plane sequence from SR or the bullet train in the comics where we actually see Superman do his thing like Batman's chase sequence and warehouse fight? Superman got short changed from a film that shares his name. This was a Batman film through and through. And that is why I did not like this film. It was a lie to Superman fans.

As someone who prefers Batman to Superman, you are completely correct. This was definitely a Batman film.

They really need to stop with the Christ allegories. I hated it in MOS and I hated even more in BvS, especially now they're doing a resurrection theme in JL.

Unfortunately, I think we're in the minority on this one. People really love the Superman/Christ allegories. And sadly, despite Superman being created by practicing Jews, he was always more of a Christ allegory than a Moses allegory.

 

[MrsKent26]

Ha! That actually explains the scene pretty dang well. But I didn't see any of this in the scene at all, and that, IMO, is part of the problem.


Unfortunately, I think we're in the minority on this one. People really love the Superman/Christ allegories. And sadly, despite Superman being created by practicing Jews, he was always more of a Christ allegory than a Moses allegory.

I saw that in the scene, but if others didn't, that's ok. Even in the trailers for this film, batman's treatment of superman seemed reflective of classic treatment of someone as an "other." In situations like that, it often takes something dramatic to snap the guilty party of out it.

And you'll have to add me to the list of people who dislike the Christ allegories. It's never added much to the superman story, IMO. So he's like Jesus in some ways. So what? Doesn't appear to add anything, so why include it?