BvS Batman v Superman & The Dark Knight Returns - let's clear something up... [SPOILERS]

[MrsKent26]

Not true. Batman has killed in every single live-action movie he's been in. Except for Adam West, which if you're arguing that Adam West Batman is a legitimate characterization of Batman then there's nothing I can do for you. Regardless, Batman in BvS is a legitimate characterization of Batman and he's in no way a murderer or bent on destruction or any of that nonsense being spouted here.

Sure, BVS batman is legitimate. In the same way that Elseworld tales are legitimate (isn't that what Miller's TDKR is considered as well?). People are allowed creative license when they take on these characters, but it doesn't change the fact that there still exists a main-stream, most common and accepted version of the character and batman's version of this doesn't kill. The films have deviated from this, which is fine, but that also means it's fine for people to dislike the deviation. I'd even argue that Nolan's films didn't totally reject this idea; they played heavily with the idea that batman doesn't kill and had him face certain challenges as a result. Of course, they did have him kill in the end.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Not true. Batman has killed in every single live-action movie he's been in. Except for Adam West

False

 

[AnneFan]

Cloonz is the best Batman evah then.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Cloonz is the best Batman evah then.

No bull **** I love the hell out of that movie. It aged wonderfully. Just watched it again the other day. It's like a zany 60s comic come to life.

 

[Quasimod0]

I actually don't hate Batman and Robin's costumes in that movie, other than the nipples and weird crotch-pieces.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Looks like he mighta caught him in the shoulder, making him drop the kid, cause I always interpreted that to be blood spatter on the wall

 

[wnjcwjkk]

It's been a minute since I've seen Batman Begins. The guy Bruce was supposed to execute, wasn't he chained up? Did Bruce make an effort to get him out of the exploding dojo, or just leave him to fend for himself, along with all the other ninjas?

 

[Poni_Boy]

Looks like he mighta caught him in the shoulder, making him drop the kid, cause I always interpreted that to be blood spatter on the wall

Plausible. That's how I saw it at first. But it's undeniable that he didn't kill him. The book itself repeats that ad nauseum.

 

[matt47]

It's been a minute since I've seen Batman Begins. The guy Bruce was supposed to execute, wasn't he chained up? Did Bruce make an effort to get him out of the exploding dojo, or just leave him to fend for himself, along with all the other ninjas?

lol I've always thought about that. There is no way that guy ain't dead.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

lol I've always thought about that. There is no way that guy ain't dead.

Haha right? In a MUCH more painful way!


Snyder definitely chose his words to defend his decision, based on false information, because there is absolutely nothing that shows the guy in the panel was shot "between the eyes"


I'm not a Snyder hater, by any means, I still believe he is a visual genius, in terms of comic book movies, but somebody else needs to be in control of the story, script, dialouge, and have a heavy influence on the editing, in my opinion.

I'd like to see Snyder do some less outlandish, visually over the top, and more dramatic films that rely on character and dialouge, something like Memento, to work on his storytelling abilities, because I think he has potential to make great CBMs that are applauded by the majority, much like TDK

 

[The Guard]

So he forgot the details of one panel out of countless panels, pages, and comics stories.

Kind of doesn't matter, because in the film's corresponding scene, he doesn't even have Batman shoot the PERSON, but his weapon.

 

[chintai80]

i still rather watch bvs over schumacher's batman and robin.

if i wanted to see a proper batman parody, i'd watch the adam west batman. that's how a good parody is done.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

At the end of the day, Snyder WANTED a Batman that kills because he thinks it's much cooler and doesn't understad anything about the source material deeper than what looks cool.

So he chose one of the only frames he could in 70 years of comics to defend his decision.

I had the same exact arguments with the death on MOS (and supes kills someone again in this film wtf). Bats and Supes have spent the vast vaaaaast majority of their existence doing ANYTHING they can not to kill. Ignoring that to to instead focus on how they're both willing to kill if it's really needed is a real disservice to the characters.

 

[FunkMiller]

At the end of the day, Snyder WANTED a Batman that kills because he thinks it's much cooler and doesn't understad anything about the source material deeper than what looks cool.

So he chose one of the only frames he could in 70 years of comics to defend his decision.

.

A frame that he gets wrong.

In a few months, people will realise what a cluster**** Zack Snyder has been to DC. Until then, the arguments will go on, despite all the evidence.

 

[matt47]

A frame that he gets wrong.

In a few months, people will realise what a cluster**** Zack Snyder has been to DC. Until then, the arguments will go on, despite all the evidence.

Yeah look, I love Man of Steel, I praised Zack for that film. The only thing I didn't like was Pa Kents death, I guess that was a taste of what was to come? Zack feels the need to change things from the canon, don't know why. I'm not just bashing him now for ****s and gigs, it's because of a list of things he has come out and said were HIS choices in the film. He chose Jesse as Lex, they were gonna go for a more truthful Lex up until then, he thinks Batman is killing people by proxy, which is ********. He lands the Batmobile on a guys head! and He shoved the DoS because he wanted Bats to bring the JL together.

Just poor poor choices that should've been thought about.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yeah look, I love Man of Steel, I praised Zack for that film. The only thing I didn't like was Pa Kents death, I guess that was a taste of what was to come? Zack feels the need to change things from the canon, don't know why. I'm not just bashing him now for ****s and gigs, it's because of a list of things he has come out and said were HIS choices in the film. He chose Jesse as Lex, they were gonna go for a more truthful Lex up until then, he thinks Batman is killing people by proxy, which is ********. He lands the Batmobile on a guys head! and He shoved the DoS because he wanted Bats to bring the JL together.

Just poor poor choices that should've been thought about.

I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt until I saw BvS. But it's becoming clear that his creative choices could bury DC at the box office for years to come. With the reactions breaking to Civil War, his - and WBs - screw ups are only going to become more apparent.

WB needed somebody marshalling the DCEU from the get-go, but they didn't do that, and instead left the creative decisions in the hands of a man sorely lacking the storytelling ability to do it.

Batman doesn't kill, but Zack Snyder may murder the DCEU in front of our eyes.

 

[Theweepeople]

I have no problem with people who are frustrated with how different this Batman and Superman are from the comics. However, I take issue with those who say these are the darkest film versions of the characters we have ever seen.

Burton's Batman was the darkest version I have ever witnessed on film. In one scene Batman sends the Batmobile into a factory and kills everyone in the building with a bomb. That scene made it clear he had no intention of sparing any lives. He had no intention of sparing the Joker's life once he found out he has was.

In Batman Returns he killed at least 3 people in cold blood(blows a villain up with a grenade. Ignites one on fire with the batmobile. Kills the penguin who wasn't much of a threat at the very end).

Now on to Richard Donner's Superman. In both versions of Superman 2 he kills 3 depowered criminals and leaves Lex Luthor to freeze or starve to death in the fortress of solitude. Depending on which version of the sequel you have seen this Superman messed with space and time to revert mistakes he made in both films.

What I would like know is where were all the people complaining about the questionable morality of these two heroes in those films?

 

[gdw]

What caught me even more in his comments "defending" his decision to have Batman kill, was that he thinks that people get the idea that Batman doesn't kill from the Burton films.

Um?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

[YT]watch?v=VcE5wjCrQ1c[/YT]

 

[gdw]

Oh, and Snyder also cited an Internet video showing all the times Batman has killed in the other movies.

The guy who made the video actually commented on it in the middle of one if his more recent BvS videos. Essentially Snyder didn't realize the video wasn't exactly in defence of the other films in this regard.

 

[FunkMiller]

I have no problem with people who are frustrated with how different this Batman and Superman are from the comics. However, I take issue with those who say these are the darkest film versions of the characters we have ever seen.

Burton's Batman was the darkest version I have ever witnessed on film. In one scene Batman sends the Batmobile into a factory and kills everyone in the building with a bomb. That scene made it clear he had no intention of sparing any lives. He had no intention of sparing the Joker's life once he found out he has was.

What I would like know is where were all the people complaining about the questionable morality of these two heroes in those films?

Oh come on, Burton's Batman is a pantomime character. Yes, the movie looks dark, because Tim Burton is a strange goblin creature, who's aesthetic is firmly planted in the gothic surreal, but in tone and intent, his Batman movies are pure camp. It's just camp with a heavy coating of black eyeliner.

And Burton's Batman is just as bad as Snyder's. Both are murdering buffoons who are far removed from their comic book inspiration. Burton could get away with it a bit more in 1989, when comic movies were few and far between, but Snyder is under the glare of fifteen years of cbms.

And anyway, using the defence that Burton's Batman killed is NO defence when criticising Snyder's Murderman. They both got it wrong!

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Oh come on, Burton's Batman is a pantomime character. Yes, the movie looks dark, because Tim Burton is a strange goblin creature, who's aesthetic is firmly planted in the gothic surreal, but in tone and intent, his Batman movies are pure camp. It's just camp with a heavy coating of black eyeliiner!

Lol this. The Burton movies are more an adaptation of the old 60s TV series than they are of the comics. You can't take them seriously.

What I would like know is where were all the people complaining about the questionable morality of these two heroes in those films?

I'm pretty sure that if the Internet had been as big then there'd have been as many complaints.

Look, Snyder has said in interviews that he considers him killing Zod in MOS as the character "Growing up".

If you take into account his fascination with Objectivism and Rands work then it makes it more clear that he considers the whole idea of a selfless hero as naive and childish.

I just can't agree with these ideas, they're completely counter to the Superman and Batman I know.

 

[Theweepeople]

Oh come on, Burton's Batman is a pantomime character. Yes, the movie looks dark, because Tim Burton is a strange goblin creature, who's aesthetic is firmly planted in the gothic surreal, but in tone and intent, his Batman movies are pure camp. It's just camp with a heavy coating of black eyeliner.

And Burton's Batman is just as bad as Snyder's. Both are murdering buffoons who are far removed from their comic book inspiration. Burton could get away with it a bit more in 1989, when comic movies were few and far between, but Snyder is under the glare of fifteen years of cbms.

And anyway, using the defence that Burton's Batman killed is NO defence when criticising Snyder's Murderman. They both got it wrong!

Sheesh. I never said I was justifying what Snyder did to Batman by comparing this film to Burton's Batman. I agree that both Burton and Synder got Batman wrong in the film. However, I've seen people in these threads unfairly call this Superman and Batman the darkest versions of these characters and quite frankly I'm sick of this horse crap. Batman was a murdering, vengeful, lunatic in the Burton movies who never followed the rules of engagement.

 

[Shikamaru]

Sheesh. I never said I was justifying what Snyder did to Batman by comparing this film to Burton's Batman. I agree that both Burton and Synder got Batman wrong in the film. However, I've seen people in these threads unfairly call this Superman and Batman the darkest versions of these characters and quite frankly I'm sick of this horse crap. Batman was a murdering, vengeful, lunatic in the Burton movies who never followed the rules of engagement.

That's because body count isn't the only factor in determining how dark a character is. Snyder's Batman is overall less selfless, has more of a clear Randian ideology built into him, is more of a hypocrite overall and has more Cheney-like speeches in his dialogue.

Not that Burton's Batman was the pinnacle of a selfless hero, but Snyder's Batman is still worse overall IMO.

 

[Batmannerism]

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff that has already been said but Snyder got the
confrontation from Dark Knight Returns (Bats v Supes) BACKWARDS (sorry, I'm yelling because I'm so pissed off). Anyway, Miller is a genius and there are two features of the fight he sets up that Snyder totally disregarded:

1) Batman only gets the upper hand at the VERY END OF THE FIGHT, up until the kryptonite arrow, all he's doing is distracting Supes - and getting badly hurt. Batman literally has to die in order to win that fight - which is why we really get invested in the whole confrontation (plus, it's the culmination of 50 years of history and a friendship that's gone bad).

In B v S, Supes smacks Bats around for about a minute before Bats gasses him and kicks his ass. Sure, the brief moment where Supes' powers return
is okay, but otherwise it's all Batman. We never believe that Supes has a chance - which is exactly opposite to what we should believe - it should be Batman who's the serious underdog, yet he has the upper hand for the majority of the fight.

Also, Superman actually tries to talk Batman down during the fight (in DKR) in B v S he tries at the start, but quickly gives up and becomes a complete idiot.

To be honest, I think that 99% of the posters on the hype could have worked out a more satisfying fight (which was supposed to be the centrepiece of the whole film). The animated DKR is 10x better than what Snyder came up with,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4huHUUFgw&nohtml5=False


yeah, it goes a bit off the source material, but keeps all the essential elements the same !


2) in DKR Batman's whole point is to leave Superman alive NOT TO KILL HIM !

" I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand…at your throat…I want…you to remember…the one man who beat you.”

Remember that ! Yet in B v S, his whole gameplan is to weaken Superman sufficiently so that he can KILL HIM !

WTF ? I remember when the reddit spoiler came out that Bats KO's Supes with Kryptonite and chucks him in a kryptonite lined cell - and Alfred lets Supes out. Well that would have been way better than what took place in the film.

****! Frank Miller is a terrible film director, but could have done a better job with that scene.

Anyway, while Snyder does pay homage to the imagery of DKR he forgets pretty much everything that made it a compelling story - even the characterization of Batman is somewhat off (although probably the only redeeming feature of B v S).

Okay, rant over. Peace out super-fans !