BvS Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

[storyteller]

I really think Watchman style of fighting(and costuming) is perfect for Batman. At the end of the day this is a movie. The fighting needs to look great on screen. Also they are limited by the suit.The thing is just too heavy and restricting to do the things in that Tony jaa video.

But again I'm biased because the Watchmen fighting can be brutal and gorgeous without looking choreographed.

Also while no one brought this up and is irrelevant. No group of guys is going to attack one man all at once. There is too high a risk of hurting the others and simply limiting your defense.

 

[Brother Jack]

I really think Watchman style of fighting(and costuming) is perfect for Batman. At the end of the day this is a movie. The fighting needs to look great on screen. Also they are limited by the suit.The thing is just too heavy and restricting to do the things in that Tony jaa video.

But again I'm biased because the Watchmen fighting can be brutal and gorgeous without looking choreographed.

I mostly disliked the fight scenes in Watchmen precisely because they looked so choreographed and over the top. It was as if Snyder in trying to sell some sort of realism with the violence ended up glorifying it by having things like absurd slo-mo shots of people's arms being broken and faces being bloodied. It actually had the affect of making the superheroes appear to have super strength and agility when none of them did Manhattan. Snyder's penchant for over-the-top action betrayed the effective banality of the source material and using that tactic with Batman would likewise come off as a hollow and shallow attempt to make the character (more) edgy.

 

[Batmannerism]

I mostly disliked the fight scenes in Watchmen precisely because they looked so choreographed and over the top. It was as if Snyder in trying to sell some sort of realism with the violence ended up glorifying it by having things like absurd slo-mo shots of people's arms being broken and faces being bloodied. It actually had the affect of making the superheroes appear to have super strength and agility when none of them did Manhattan. Snyder's penchant for over-the-top action betrayed the effective banality of the source material and using that tactic with Batman would likewise come off as a hollow and shallow attempt to make the character (more) edgy.

First, big props to you for quoting Shelley's immortal poem "I met a traveller from an antique land who said....." and you know the rest.

Next, I agree on the lack of slo-mo, MOS was a much better film for
the absence of it.

However, I think that there is definitely room in this next film for a particularly brutal Batman, as in broken limbs and blood. Batman kind
of dances on that line of appearing super-human ( when we all know
he's not, it's just trickery, gadgets and his high level of skill) it's part of the image that he sells, the mystique. I suppose the hard part is having the
right tone for the film. While the bone-breaking didn't appeal to you,
I felt that it fit in with the dark tonality of Watchmen, it wasn't meant
to be a visceral film - but that might not work in a film that also features Superman (although a neck-snapping Superman).



Personally, I think the Ozymandias vs Comedian fight scene might be
a reasonable starting point for Batman, although I still am keen for
a more "Jason Bourne"/ Person of Interest flavour to his approach, and certainly the integration of his weapons, as well as his hands (and occasionally feet).

Having said that I have to question your comment about "effective banality
of the source material." Is that your way of saying that Watchmen is banal ?
If so, I have to disagree with you there. Back in 86, when it came out,
Watchmen was at the limit of what comic books could be.
It was an anti-superhero story that stretched the boundaries of the genre by providing insights into the complex, and somewhat twisted motivations of the characters - it took the day-glo world of superheroes and put in
homosexuality.....well sexuality in general , as well as child-abuse, paranoia, quantum physics, commercialism, and to top it all off, captured the climate of the cold war. The ambiguous ending, and the apocalyptic scenes of issue 12 weren't just edgy, they were the edge itself.

Having said all that, I think Snyder did the best job possible he could -because no one could ever bring all that to the screen in one film. It wasn't perfect, (proving that glowing blue penises just don't work on the big screen). I collected and loved the original, and felt okay about the film (actually Snyder's ending made slightly more sense - yes, I know sacrilege to say that.)

Back to Batman, IMO nothing too flashy, yet still extremely skillful, and brutal.

So you've said what you wouldn't like to see, how about what you WOULD like to see in Batman's fighting style ?

Peace.

 

[Batmannerism]

I really think Watchman style of fighting(and costuming) is perfect for Batman. At the end of the day this is a movie. The fighting needs to look great on screen. Also they are limited by the suit.The thing is just too heavy and restricting to do the things in that Tony jaa video.

But again I'm biased because the Watchmen fighting can be brutal and gorgeous without looking choreographed.

Also while no one brought this up and is irrelevant. No group of guys is going to attack one man all at once. There is too high a risk of hurting the others and simply limiting your defense.

I agree with you that the Watchmen film had some very enjoyable fight scenes, although, as I've said before, I think Ozymandias vs Comedian would be the most Batman -ish fight. Very few kicks in that fight, although the bit where Comedian throws the knife and Ozy catches it, is very cool.
As the other guy said, Batman isn't super-human, but something like
that is probably on the borderline of human vs super-human, so seeing
Bats do something like that would be on the edge of believability,
I think it could work.


Have to agree with what the other guy said about slo-mo, that's gotta
go. MOS really benefitted from not having any at all. In fact, I think it
was deliberately used in Watchmen, to simulate some of the panels
from the Watchmen comic (particularly the one where Comedian gets
punched in the face).

I totally agree with you in that whatever Bats ends up wearing is going to make Tony Jaa/ Donny Yen acrobatics a bit too difficult, plus the fact that Ben Affleck is physically a lot bigger than those guys. Batman in the movies has never been very acrobatic (thus the reliance on the grappling gun).

Not so sure about groups of guys attacking one person at once,
my experience of people being attacked by multiple opponents usually involves the victim getting grabbed by one attacker while at least
one other smacks him from behind. From there, it usually ends up with the victim on the ground getting a kicking/stomping from the other assailants.
What can I say, I've lived in some rough neighbourhoods.

Anyway, thanks for the post ! Cheers

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Mass attacks are dog piles in real life, yes, but the person who ends up the focus of the attack is 99.9% of the time the one who is ripped to pieces unless he/she employs a very smart strategy of quick movements and very brutal attacks that is more about creating a break to run through and make an escape. I don't link vids but it somebody could show some Paul Vunak mass attack stuff, I think that would clear things up a bit.

All that being put out there, I would like a little more... Cinema styled fighting for a screen Batman. Since I don't consider Batman to be "the realistic super hero" it does not bother me too much if some of what is presented for Bats choreography wise is a little on the flowery and entertaining side. Just a smidge. I aint asking for Jet Li level wire fu here people. Let's not twist this.

 

[Batmannerism]

I practice WT since a year ago, and can affirm that a skilled practitioner is an effective fighter against single and multiple opponents.

WT/WC main technique is a chained punch. It's a straight punch aimed to the neck, with quickness and energy economy as a priority.

This MA is heavily based in a grounded stance, with a powerful balance. Nothing compromises the balances center of the practitioner. The counter-attacks are organic, fast and unforgivable (mainly using pivoting force of the muscles, using the enemies strenght against them).

Kicks are only grounded-based aiming into disrupting enemies balance, attacking joints and the pelvis, and is all applyable to the "countering" aspect of the art, welcoming incoming attacks, deflecting and attacking at the same time.

I'm not criticizing Wing Chun/Wing Tsun, however, looking at Batman comics and previous films, I don't think it lends itself well to Batman's fighting style.

In a similar way BJJ is a highly effective art, although most effective one-on-one. If you let a BJJ guy, or girl, take you to ground and don't watch out you're going to sleep or have an arm or leg broken.
Still, that doesn't make it a suitable main fighting style for Batman on the big screen -although in The Dark Knight Returns Batman does use something similar to BJJ to snap the mutant leader's leg - still, probably not the best thing for big screen Batman.

Stylistically, if you look at the comics (or the films) Batman needs to use a flowing, mobile fighting style that utilises single precision strikes (rather than multiple short range strikes) which is why I suggest that WT/WC techniques and footwork are not well suited to that approach.

I thought Nolan gave Batman some credibility by incorporating ninjitsu into his training -although in close quarters he relied on KFM.

Also, Batman is meant to be a master of many styles, so whatever he uses will be a blend of different techniques (as in ninjitsu + krav maga/CQB + BJJ + lots of other stuff). Bruce Lee started with WC and then added a heap of other styles and techniques, JKD still has lots of WC in it, and other stuff too.


Just to be cheeky, I have to ask, "If WT/WC is so effective, why don't we see it more in the UFC ?"

here's one answer : http://snakevscrane.com/why-isnt-wing-chun-in-the-ufc

Not sure I agree with everything in the above link, but he has some good points.


Still, while I don't think WC/WT is the right style for Batman, that doesn't make it the wrong style for anyone else.
The main thing, is if you enjoy your training and get something out of it,
you should keep doing it, so more power to you.

Peace.

 

[Batmannerism]

Mass attacks are dog piles in real life, yes, but the person who ends up the focus of the attack is 99.9% of the time the one who is ripped to pieces unless he/she employs a very smart strategy of quick movements and very brutal attacks that is more about creating a break to run through and make an escape. I don't link vids but it somebody could show some Paul Vunak mass attack stuff, I think that would clear things up a bit.

All that being put out there, I would like a little more... Cinema styled fighting for a screen Batman. Since I don't consider Batman to be "the realistic super hero" it does not bother me too much if some of what is presented for Bats choreography wise is a little on the flowery and entertaining side. Just a smidge. I aint asking for Jet Li level wire fu here people. Let's not twist this.

Good to see someone else lives in the real world re multiple attackers.
Batman usually gets around this by picking off thugs one at a time, from behind, he uses hit-and-run, and goes on the offensive. As you say, it's about using brutal, quick technique to create a break.

I take your point about Bats not having to be totally realistic, but then
for this film he has to incorporate Superman as well - so how far can he
go ?

Spell it out for us brother, how far are we going here ? Obviously not
the matrix, so just how flowery is flowery enough, without turning into Crouching Batman Hidden Gotham ?

Nobody's mentioned Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, now that film had some
very entertaining fist fights (plus the first "throat ripped out with bare hands" on screen). Probably a bit too balletic for Batman, but I think there's something to be said for looking back at 80's action flicks for fight scenes, maybe some Steven Seagall type action, who knows ?

great post. Cheers.

 

[Rocanrol]

Nice post Batmannerism. Although I could see the point of the choreographic part of WC/WT, Batman is mainly about practical fighting, and that's what WC is all about. The page you posted even says so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUT3j_LAn3s

This is the best example I could find online, but I think you can appreciate the sense of flow it has. Also feels natural with time, because demands of you having whole control of all your body.

We train one-on-one, against multiple targets, blindfolded and protecting someone, against different kind of weapons.

But I also believe, Batman being a master of all martial arts and weapons, should fight with a combination of these, but heavily combat realistic.

Thank you for the good vibes although!

Emin Boztepe is going to give a conference in my country in November!

 

[Batmannerism]

Nice post Batmannerism. Although I could see the point of the choreographic part of WC/WT, Batman is mainly about practical fighting, and that's what WC is all about. The page you posted even says so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUT3j_LAn3s

This is the best example I could find online, but I think you can appreciate the sense of flow it has. Also feels natural with time, because demands of you having whole control of all your body.

We train one-on-one, against multiple targets, blindfolded and protecting someone, against different kind of weapons.

But I also believe, Batman being a master of all martial arts and weapons, should fight with a combination of these, but heavily combat realistic.

Thank you for the good vibes although!

Emin Boztepe is going to give a conference in my country in November!

Thanks man.

One final thought on the Batman - WC thing, lots of people have said it, but there is really no one superior style, just superior fighters. So Batman probably would have studied WC at some point, and have some WC incorporated into his fighting style -but along with tons of other stuff.

That mix of skills, plus his natural athleticism, and determination, are what make him great - also, if you know something about someone else's style that means you know what to expect and that gives you an edge. I bet Batman would have studied many many different styles so that even if he didn't use their moves often, he could figure out ways to beat them.


Enjoy your conference, don't let your hands get too sticky !

Peace.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Good to see someone else lives in the real world re multiple attackers.
Batman usually gets around this by picking off thugs one at a time, from behind, he uses hit-and-run, and goes on the offensive. As you say, it's about using brutal, quick technique to create a break.

I take your point about Bats not having to be totally realistic, but then
for this film he has to incorporate Superman as well - so how far can he
go ?

Spell it out for us brother, how far are we going here ? Obviously not
the matrix, so just how flowery is flowery enough, without turning into Crouching Batman Hidden Gotham ?

Nobody's mentioned Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, now that film had some
very entertaining fist fights (plus the first "throat ripped out with bare hands" on screen). Probably a bit too balletic for Batman, but I think there's something to be said for looking back at 80's action flicks for fight scenes, maybe some Steven Seagall type action, who knows ?

great post. Cheers.

Thanks for the kind words. It's always appreciated to be appreciated. t:

Just a little background: I am making no claims to being some badass Master street fighter. Life long (okay, starting for serious at 17) martial arts enthusiast that trained solo and with an instructor at 21 in JKD Concepts/Filipino Martial Arts/Integrated Grappling, and then I branched out into Dog Brothers' Real Contact StickFighting (hint, it aint just sticks ) did a little one on one with Guro Crafty Dog and fought at 2 Gatherings as well as attend a camp or two. Health issues have since sidelined all my training and it is one of my greatest pains in life.

Does any of this make me an expert? By no means. But perhaps my viewpoint can be, at least, considered interesting.

For myself, I actually really liked the presentation of Batman as "THE WORLD'S GREATEST HAND TO HAND COMBATANT" (screw you, Shiva/Cassie Cain/DeathStroke ect. ) in 3 of the segments in the GOTHAM KNIGHT anime anthology (I loved the thing from start to finish really). The three fights in that thing that might only need to be toned down a bit are the sewer fight with Crane's minions, the fight against the knife wielding villagers in what I assume is India, and the train confrontation with Deadshot. Now is everything in those grounded or realistic? No. But neither is the fighting in the video games or even B:TAS. I think doing Bat-Fu GOTHAM KNIGHT style, perhaps, just perhaps, toned down a little would be my ideal, as long as they also stress that Batman PREFERS the ninpo style of hit and run and evading over trying to take on 10-15 guys at once. Also, I would really like to see some of BatFleck taking time out to train. Let's see how the methodology of his training is reflective of the man and the martial artist.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Nice post Batmannerism. Although I could see the point of the choreographic part of WC/WT, Batman is mainly about practical fighting, and that's what WC is all about. The page you posted even says so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUT3j_LAn3s

This is the best example I could find online, but I think you can appreciate the sense of flow it has. Also feels natural with time, because demands of you having whole control of all your body.

We train one-on-one, against multiple targets, blindfolded and protecting someone, against different kind of weapons.

But I also believe, Batman being a master of all martial arts and weapons, should fight with a combination of these, but heavily combat realistic.

Thank you for the good vibes although!

Emin Boztepe is going to give a conference in my country in November!

I would just add to what's been stated. There is no one single superior fighting style. Not Ving Tsun/Wing Chun not BJJ, not Krav Maga, not 5 Family/Animal style, not Tai Chi, not an "internal style" and not an "external style".

As a student do not, I repeat, do not take anything your instructor/teacher/Master/Sensei/Sifu at face value. Train hard and attempt to hone what knowledge is gifted to you but always be your own judge. Test and train by yourself as well as with your group/teacher.

Finally, I would like to pass this on.

The truth is there are no "Masters" in any fighting style, because the absolute truth is no teacher can ever really pass on the totality of his or her's life experience as a student of any given style. That's just the truth. What your teacher has is akin to a giant nugget of gold (hopefully) that he actually can never give away totally. But he can chip off a small piece and give you that. By constant honing, effort and thought you polish that piece, and as you polish it, it begins to grow. Now the knowledge that piece represents is actually yours and yours alone. It is not a mirror of your teacher's wisdom, but your own. If you continue to polish it you will end up with a large nugget of your own, that perhaps you can break a piece off an hand off to someone else.

Namaste.

 

[Rocanrol]

I'm sorry if it was implied that I believe that WC/WT is the superior martial art, it was not intended. Poor english vocabulary you could say, english isn't my native language.

I fully understand that it's "the fighter, not the martial art". But some arts have more applications irl. But it's not my intention to dismiss any form of MA.

I'm talking specifically about that martial art because i'm practicing it, and understand some basic principles of it.

But to me Batman fighting style (with the combination of all the martial arts he knows) should be based on realistic combat and personal defense. Neither exhibition nor competition, but also feel and look "flowy".

 

[Batmannerism]

I'm sorry if it was implied that I believe that WC/WT is the superior martial art, it was not intended. Poor english vocabulary you could say, english isn't my native language.

I fully understand that it's "the fighter, not the martial art". But some arts have more applications irl. But it's not my intention to dismiss any form of MA.

I'm talking specifically about that martial art because i'm practicing it, and understand some basic principles of it.

But to me Batman fighting style (with the combination of all the martial arts he knows) should be based on realistic combat and personal defense. Neither exhibition nor competition, but also feel and look "flowy".

No worries, everyone takes pride in their particular style of martial arts. That's natural.

When you say realistic combat, do you think Batman should fight dirty?
I definitely think so. If it saves time for Bats to poke someone in the eye, strike someone's throat, palm-slap the ears or kick somebody in the groin, he's going to. I loved Nolan's Batman, but thought his fighting
was a little too "clean."

Batman fighting should not look like UFC, where there are rules. I think it will be a bit of a challenge to show Batman as a brutal fighter, but also a skillful one.

Who should choreograph the fights for this film ? My pick, Jeff Imada,
who did the Bourne films.

The fight between Bourne and Desh in Bourne Ultimatum, my favourite movie fist fight of all time, choreographed by Imada, back in 2007.


[YT] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7UOLUMoqJQ [/YT]

Peace.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Ah, good ole' Jeff Imada. One of Guro Dan Inosanto's students and a great Filipino Martial Artist. Many are still under the impression that FMA is just stick fighting. It's not. The many branches of FMA include boxing/kickboxing, Trapping/close quarters/standing grapple techniques, dirty self defense stuff like biting, eye gouging and spitting, and of course weapons, weapons, weapons, which include at it's highest level the ability to pick up just about any thing, designed for combat or not, and use it in an effective manner.

 

[gohei_]

When you say realistic combat, do you think Batman should fight dirty?
I definitely think so. If it saves time for Bats to poke someone in the eye, strike someone's throat, palm-slap the ears or kick somebody in the groin, he's going to. I loved Nolan's Batman, but thought his fighting
was a little too "clean."

Batman fighting should not look like UFC, where there are rules. I think it will be a bit of a challenge to show Batman as a brutal fighter, but also a skillful one.

I agree, there is no reason for Batman to fight with rules when going up against street-level scum. Especially if they are armed and looking to kill him.
If you are going up against multiple attackers it would be stupid to not employ these kind of attacks, unless you are toying with your attacker.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I think Batman should have a range of fighting styles, with Batman fighting dirty against the bigger thugs/people he hates most. There was a comic in which Batman said "he was content to take the gloves off" implying that he holds back some on weaker/more cowardly opponents, and secretly relishes going all out on more professional thugs.

 

[Nathan]

In a life and death encounter, there should be no such thing as dirty fighting. Everything goes to ensure that you are the one person left breathing.

 

[Rocanrol]

Exactly, the bourne trilogy is a good example. Could you believe I was going to post a video from Hanna, and is choreographed by Jeff Imada aswell!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Exactly, the bourne trilogy is a good example. Could you believe I was going to post a video from Hanna, and is choreographed by Jeff Imada aswell!

Yes!

I love the fighting in those movies. Brutal yet genius level tactics and speed.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Warms my heart to see FMA being appreciated by so many.

 

[Batmannerism]

Warms my heart to see FMA being appreciated by so many.

Looks like Jeff Imada should be on Snyder's list ( I had forgotten his
terrific work in Hannah !) .

Damon Caro did the choreography for 300 and Watchmen, and apparently had an uncredited fight/stunt role on Bourne ultimatum - interestingly he also worked on Man of Steel, so maybe he'll have a role in developing Superman's fighting style, as well as the Dark Knight's.

Either way, it would be hard to see Batman not incorporating some Kali or
other FMA into his fighting style. You guys will have to look for signature moves when the film comes out.

I do hope they keep the use of headbutts, elbows and hammer-fist from Nolan's trilogy. While not really a fast technique the hammer-fist is underused and works well as a finishing technique as well as a pre-emptive first strike at close range, or a spinning technique.

The question is, which other techniques best suit Batfleck's physique?

he's tall (probably 6'3" or 6'4" In costume) but of lean muscular build,
not really bulky, but probably still too big to pull off the agility of
Tony Jaa/Donnie Yen/Scott Adkins.


Peace.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Looks like Jeff Imada should be on Snyder's list ( I had forgotten his
terrific work in Hannah !) .

Damon Caro did the choreography for 300 and Watchmen, and apparently had an uncredited fight/stunt role on Bourne ultimatum - interestingly he also worked on Man of Steel, so maybe he'll have a role in developing Superman's fighting style, as well as the Dark Knight's.

Either way, it would be hard to see Batman not incorporating some Kali or
other FMA into his fighting style. You guys will have to look for signature moves when the film comes out.

I do hope they keep the use of headbutts, elbows and hammer-fist from Nolan's trilogy. While not really a fast technique the hammer-fist is underused and works well as a finishing technique as well as a pre-emptive first strike at close range, or a spinning technique.

The question is, which other techniques best suit Batfleck's physique?

he's tall (probably 6'3" or 6'4" In costume) but of lean muscular build,
not really bulky, but probably still too big to pull off the agility of
Tony Jaa/Donnie Yen/Scott Adkins.


Peace.

With Fleck's size, and I am assuming some even greater mass come filming time I think throws and joint locks and breaks should be a big part of his arsenal. Use some of those nasty Silat throws that aren't like Judo ones where you can see the stunt man land with a standard matt slap. Use wire and other techniques so we can see the stunt man land on his head.

I also think Batman should really be using his environment to his advantage. Show he is a master improviser. It's weird to suggest a villain as an example but "Big Bear" in Ong Bak is a good example, it's just with Batman he'd be the winner. If Batman has to pummel you with furniture to get out of a situation alive, well, THAT's what he'll do. Have Bat's slamming guys into walls and door frames or street lights, if he's at a construction site and it looks like the guy Bats is fighting out weighs him by more than 100lbs. then show Bat's is not shy about picking up a 2'x4' and start wailing on his opponent (assuming Bat's doesn't have some exotic weapon to deal with the guy on him) .

We've seen Bale do the roof top interrogation, well I'd love to see Bat's explain Aikijujutsu pressure points and the like and then put it to use on a perp.

I agree about keeping the HEK (head butts, elbows and knees) in the arsenal, just cuz they are super practical. I don't think with armor and a cape that super high above the hip kicks are practical or even all that safe to do on a movie set (or real life) but I could see some lower body Thai style kicks and the occasional Savate boxe france toe kick to the mid section.

What ever they choose above all I want it shown that Batman is incredibly adaptable at a moments notice in his fighting.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Anything but this

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

But BatFleck would look good in "totally realistic" high heels.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Just try to adapt the Arkham fighting style into a movie