Batwoman BATWOMAN News & Discussion Thread

[Catoti]

One of the challenges Batwoman faces is “superhero fatigue” (generally) and “CW superhero fatigue” (more specifically). I.e., this same material might have seemed fresh/novel (for TV, at least) back in 2012 when Arrow premiered. But fast-forward several years and Batwoman is presented as the fifth Arrowverse series. (With more to come.) And one wonders how many “variations of the same theme” general audiences will continue to follow.

Interestingly, this has never been much of a concern in the comic book world. I don’t think any CB publisher ever worried about too many superheroes. Or about a new/spinoff superhero being redundant or derivative. But TV is a different landscape. And, arguably, fatigue and oversaturation are real things.

Anyhoo… if you’re someone who had given up on the Arrowverse but decided to give Batwoman a look out of curiosity, I can appreciate the disappointment. The series adheres to formula: there’s no profound innovation, no reinvention of the wheel. But from within the Arrowverse bubble - grading on that curve - I think Batwoman holds up. Put another way, I think it would be exceedingly difficult to praise/defend Supergirl or Legends of Tomorrow or the weaker seasons of Flash and Arrow and then single out Batwoman as conspicuously inferior. IMO, there’s no sense to that evaluation.

Mhm, I get that.
I never really liked the Arrowverse to begin with. I couldn’t get through the first episode of the Flash and gave up on Arrow after three or so seasons.

It’s not just the themes, though, it’s also the appearance of the show. I think this is a CW problem in general, but the costumes and just...everything looks super tacky and unappealing to me.

If people enjoy it, great! I’m glad you’ve found something that makes you happy. But it falls short for me in every aspect.

I’m also really picky so there’s that.

 

[Dr.]

Technical trivia:

Batwoman is the only Arrowverse show shot in a wider aspect ratio. The others are 16:9 - which fills a standard widescreen TV. Batwoman appears to be 2:1. This produces “letterbox” bars at the top and bottom.

The exception was part two of Crisis. There, the Batwoman portion switched to 16:9 for consistency.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Why oh why did they kill off Bats 99? Dumb move.

 

[Dr.]

Why oh why did they kill off Bats 99? Dumb move.

Well, Bruce Wayne-99 was lost to the Dark Side. Now, one might argue that this was the “dumb move.” But given the Crisis premise, his death was karmic justice.

Some are speculating/hoping that Conroy might reprise his role as Wayne. But if this happens, he’ll (almost certainly) play a “good version” of the character from an alternative/re-written reality. And, therefore, the death of Wayne-99 is irrelevant.

 

[Avenging Angel]

It was all for propping up Kate. If he reprises OK, but I have a feeling he will stay dead because he can't exist to overpower Kate.

 

[Catoti]

It was all for propping up Kate. If he reprises OK, but I have a feeling he will stay dead because he can't exist to overpower Kate.

I feel the whole show is trying to prop up Kate
if it's working or not depends on the viewer but it's really not working for me.

 

[Dr.]

Has this series been available in Britain? If not, it will be:

Batwoman, Harley Quinn & Duncanville Head To Channel 4 & E4 – Deadline

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The ratings for this show have jumped off a cliff. Lost well over a million from it's first episode, and is now consistently being beaten by Supergirl weekly. Only a .67 overall rating, with a .1 in the demo. This isn't a situation where people didn't tune in to start. People did. But they have left, quickly.

 

[Thome216]

Well they have another season in which to grow. Really hoping they do to. I like what I see so far, but it needs to mature some. Also need to see Gotham as truly falling apart. Except for some barbed wire and bums and trash around Wayne Tower they haven't really shown that. And compare that to what the Titans showed in their season 1 finale and it is a stark difference.

This show needs to get grittier, and hopefully run some of the more mystical-type stories from the comic. In that way, I'm hoping their take on Nocturna (except for the whole relationship/rape angle) is followed closely. I want her to be a real vampire and not just someone with plastic fangs...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The way ratings trend, it should probably be under .5 come the spring. That would be insane considering where it started, but they have apparently chased off viewers like it is their number 1 job.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well, Bruce Wayne-99 was lost to the Dark Side. Now, one might argue that this was the “dumb move.” But given the Crisis premise, his death was karmic justice.

Some are speculating/hoping that Conroy might reprise his role as Wayne. But if this happens, he’ll (almost certainly) play a “good version” of the character from an alternative/re-written reality. And, therefore, the death of Wayne-99 is irrelevant.

I hope he doesn't play Bruce Wayne from Earth Prime. He's old enough to be her grandfather. Doesn't really seem like a cousin.

 

[Dr.]

I hope he doesn't play Bruce Wayne from Earth Prime. He's old enough to be her grandfather. Doesn't really seem like a cousin.

I worked out this chronology in a prior post.

The fateful car accident/attack occurred in 2003, when Kate and Beth were 13. Batman was at the scene; so (obviously) he was already active, recognizable and engaging with the likes of the Joker. Conceivably, he might have been as young as 21-25 at the time. This kinda tracks with Kate describing Bruce as “like an older brother” (i.e., 10 or so years older). So using this assumption, Batman would have been in his late 30s when he mysteriously disappeared in 2015. He’d be in his early 40s now. (BTW, Kate and Beth just celebrated their 30th birthday - January 26.)

So… Conroy is 64. And even if you allow that he can pass for younger (say 54), the math doesn’t quite work out vis-à-vis the timeline established above. Of course, you can redo the timeline with an older Bruce Wayne in order to accommodate Conroy. But an older Bruce puts a strain on the “older brother” notion. (He’d be a much older “brother” to Kate. He’d also be the same age as his uncle, Jacob Kane. ) Moreover, with this scenario, Bats’ disappearance in 2015 starts to look more like a natural retirement due to advancing years. That’s entirely plausible. However, in this continuity, the disappearance was characterized as a kind of voluntary resignation due to “disillusionment” or some such. IOW, age wasn’t a factor; and absent the disillusionment, he might have continued for a few more years. Which means that 64-year-old Conroy might still be suiting up and swinging from skyscrapers.

Of course, Batwoman could just fudge the prior continuity (and dates and ages) if they really wanted Conroy to play a retired Batman/Bruce Wayne. And there’s precedent for this. On Supergirl, Brenda Strong (59) was cast as Lillian Luthor. Then, later, Jon Cryer (54) was cast as her son.

 

[Dark Raven]

I worked out this chronology in a prior post.

The fateful car accident/attack occurred in 2003, when Kate and Beth were 13. Batman was at the scene; so (obviously) he was already active, recognizable and engaging with the likes of the Joker. Conceivably, he might have been as young as 21-25 at the time. This kinda tracks with Kate describing Bruce as “like an older brother” (i.e., 10 or so years older). So using this assumption, Batman would have been in his late 30s when he mysteriously disappeared in 2015. He’d be in his early 40s now. (BTW, Kate and Beth just celebrated their 30th birthday - January 26.)

So… Conroy is 64. And even if you allow that he can pass for younger (say 54), the math doesn’t quite work out vis-à-vis the timeline established above. Of course, you can redo the timeline with an older Bruce Wayne in order to accommodate Conroy. But an older Bruce puts a strain on the “older brother” notion. (He’d be a much older “brother” to Kate. He’d also be the same age as his uncle, Jacob Kane. ) Moreover, with this scenario, Bats’ disappearance in 2015 starts to look more like a natural retirement due to advancing years. That’s entirely plausible. However, in this continuity, the disappearance was characterized as a kind of voluntary resignation due to “disillusionment” or some such. IOW, age wasn’t a factor; and absent the disillusionment, he might have continued for a few more years. Which means that 64-year-old Conroy might still be suiting up and swinging from skyscrapers.

Of course, Batwoman could just fudge the prior continuity (and dates and ages) if they really wanted Conroy to play a retired Batman/Bruce Wayne. And there’s precedent for this. On Supergirl, Brenda Strong (59) was cast as Lillian Luthor. Then, later, Jon Cryer (54) was cast as her son.

Admittedly though, Brenda Strong does look in better shape than Kevin Conroy. She doesn't look as aged as him. Even Lynda Carter (68) looks better than him. Conroy looks quite weathered, much like Michael Keaton who is also 68. On top of that, he looks a bit thin and on the frail side, so it doesn't seem like he'd still be fighting crime.

It's possible he was as old or older than his uncle Jacob, but why not refer to Bruce as an older uncle or even a father figure instead of older brother?

I think it's better if Bruce simply looked different on Earth 1 to the way he did on Conroy's earth. After all, Clark looked different on Smallville's earth or Superman Returns earth. We also had different Flashes of different ages eg Barry from Earth 90 who was not only old enough to be Earth 1 Barry's father, but looked like his father.

 

[Thome216]

Even with the age discrepancy, I'd still be alright with Conroy reprising as Bruce. We can fudge the ages a bit, but also say that he looks like he's been through the 'ringer' and just aged prematurely.

 

[Catoti]

I don't know what it is about this show, but I want to like it, but the more I try to watch it, the more it feels like the show is telling me to not like it.
It's hard to explain, but I think it may just be because I find the main character irritating and generally uninteresting.
Maybe I should just stop trying to give it a chance repeatedly, but I really want to like the show??? Why.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I don't know what it is about this show, but I want to like it, but the more I try to watch it, the more it feels like the show is telling me to not like it.
It's hard to explain, but I think it may just be because I find the main character irritating and generally uninteresting.
Maybe I should just stop trying to give it a chance repeatedly, but I really want to like the show??? Why.

For me it's exactly the opposite. I wasn't too interested in it but strangely I find myself liking it more.

 

[Catoti]

For me it's exactly the opposite. I wasn't too interested in it but strangely I find myself liking it more.

See, that’s interesting! Why is that the case??
I need answers.

Maybe different personalities/interests? Idk I’m in a weird mood today.

 

[chamber-music]

I checked the show out and here are my thoughts.

My issues with it are that Ruby Rose isn't a particularly good actress and doesn't have any charisma/screen presence. The cast have little chemistry and I got bored of the villains pretty quickly.

The positives are that the set design/cinematography is more engaging than the Arrowverse usual Vancouver studio/street/woodland settings. The LGBT stuff is admirable (although not the best written).

 

[Dr.]

See, that’s interesting! Why is that the case??
I need answers.

3 things I like about the show :

1. Batwoman is smaller in scope. The action is confined to Gotham; and since Kate is a mortal hero, the villains (though still comic book-y) tend to be likewise. I.e., no invading aliens or Evil Genius time travellers, etc. And these more modest criminal ambitions make for more grounded and accessible conflicts.

2. Though Kate does have Luke as an ally, she’s essentially a solo hero and loner. And at least so far, there’s no equivalent to Team Arrow, Team Flash or Team Supergirl. BTW, those heroes are ostensibly solo characters. But over time, they’ve acquired a substantial support network and a large population of costumed/superhero sidekicks. And among other things, this means that everyone and their dog seems to know the secret identities. (In Ollie’s case, the whole world knew.) With Batwoman, the secret identity is mostly still a secret.

3. The plots have been relatively simple/straightforward (in a good way) - not burdened by convolutions, repetition and self-contradiction. Now, this may not be due to superior planning. Indeed, it’s probably more a function of Batwoman being a new series - which simply hasn’t had time to accumulate the convolutions that typically characterize the Arrowverse. Thus, I’m only judging on what it is now and not what it’s likely to become in the future.


Of course, none of the above means that Batwoman rises to the level of excellence in television - at the same rank as (say) The Crown, Stranger Things or [insert esteemed TV series]. Rather, I’m “grading on a curve” and comparing Batwoman against the overall standard of “quality” established among the other Arrowverse shows. And by that measure, I think it holds up.

 

[Catoti]

3 things I like about the show :

1. Batwoman is smaller in scope. The action is confined to Gotham; and since Kate is a mortal hero, the villains (though still comic book-y) tend to be likewise. I.e., no invading aliens or Evil Genius time travellers, etc. And these more modest criminal ambitions make for more grounded and accessible conflicts.

2. Though Kate does have Luke as an ally, she’s essentially a solo hero and loner. And at least so far, there’s no equivalent to Team Arrow, Team Flash or Team Supergirl. BTW, those heroes are ostensibly solo characters. But over time, they’ve acquired a substantial support network and a large population of costumed/superhero sidekicks. And among other things, this means that everyone and their dog seems to know the secret identities. (In Ollie’s case, the whole world knew.) With Batwoman, the secret identity is mostly still a secret.

3. The plots have been relatively simple/straightforward (in a good way) - not burdened by convolutions, repetition and self-contradiction. Now, this may not be due to superior planning. Indeed, it’s probably more a function of Batwoman being a new series - which simply hasn’t had time to accumulate the convolutions that typically characterize the Arrowverse. Thus, I’m only judging on what it is now and not what it’s likely to become in the future.


Of course, none of the above means that Batwoman rises to the level of excellence in television - at the same rank as (say) The Crown, Stranger Things or [insert esteemed TV series]. Rather, I’m “grading on a curve” and comparing Batwoman against the overall standard of “quality” established among the other Arrowverse shows. And by that measure, I think it holds up.

I was more asking why is it that one person wants to like the show but ends up not, and another want goes into the show don’t thinking much of it and ends up liking it.

but I’m glad you’re enjoying the show even if I don’t.

 

[SupermanFan]

I really enjoy Batwoman I think it’s the most consistent show of the Arrowverse of the show’s currently on air. But the one thing that holds it back for me is Ruby Rose. I think she’s fine in the mask as Batwoman but as Kate Kane she’s terrible. Such a wooden awkward portrayal, the way she’s talks through her teeth is incredibly annoying aswell. I wonder if she’s more comfortable in the suit because it’s like she can morph into that character with the aid of the cowl etc. I really think if they’d cast someone better it would fix this show’s big problem.

 

[vantheman77]

I really enjoy Batwoman I think it’s the most consistent show of the Arrowverse of the show’s currently on air. But the one thing that holds it back for me is Ruby Rose. I think she’s fine in the mask as Batwoman but as Kate Kane she’s terrible. Such a wooden awkward portrayal, the way she’s talks through her teeth is incredibly annoying aswell. I wonder if she’s more comfortable in the suit because it’s like she can morph into that character with the aid of the cowl etc. I really think if they’d cast someone better it would fix this show’s big problem.

That was the same problem with Arrow when Stephen Amell did both Oliver Queen and Green Arrow. He got better with time and no doubt the same will happen for Ruby Rose.

I would like to bring Katana to Batwoman in a nod to Beware The Batman animated series.

 

[chamber-music]

Ruby rose used to be a mtv host in Australia. I remember seeing her interview celebrities.

Stephen Amell has been pretty open about the fact he originally got into acting to chase fame and it took him a while to get serious about it. Being the lead on Arrow and working with some talented actors made him up his game

 

[Catoti]

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to recast Batwoman, who would you think is a better actress to be her instead of Ruby Rose?

Not saying they should, just genuinely curious.

 

[Snow Queen]

Even throwing darts at a board of actors both available and that they can afford would probably yield someone better than Ruby Rose.