Batwoman BATWOMAN News & Discussion Thread

That the CW will fully use the "lesbian" thing was never a question to begin with.
Its the CW...they made Olicity a thing.

I dont have a problem to involve Kates private life, afterall its not just a show that focuses just on her as Batwoman.
Every CW superhero show had a strong focus on the romance aspect, dont see why Kate shouldnt get this.

But the problem is that the CW is bad at such stuff, they were bad in tackling feminism in supergirl they were bad in LOT with Sara and so on...so i can see them tackle this too in a incredible dumb way.

That for Kate...as Batwoman the show shouldnt bother or tackle her sexuality at all imo.
I mean it wasnt for a second any concern in flash or arrow...and im not sure supergirl tackled that either.
When she walks around as Batwoman it shouldnt be matter at all that she is a female or which sexuality the character has.

But again, its CW...they will milk and expose when they can just for the sake of it.
Because they are hardly ever genuine.

Exploring Kates relationship and so on is a nice idea, it brings one closer to the character and does fine characterwork...if done right.
 
You can tell that the showrunners on both Batwoman and Supergirl feel like the opinions that the main characters have on certain political/social issues is the "right" opinion.
 
Where was this mentioned? I'm not saying you're wrong, to be clear, I just can't actually find anything on this.
The comic book Jacob Kane may have been current (or ex-) military. But I’m not sure anything was specified - one way or another - for the TV version.
 
Just a question:
Since the 3 "Elseworlds" episodes happened before Batwoman Episode 5, is it me or Wayne's office was looking abandoned and partially run-down in "Elseworlds", while in the series it has been already rejuvenated?
 
The comic book Jacob Kane may have been current (or ex-) military. But I’m not sure anything was specified - one way or another - for the TV version.
Yeah I'm aware, that's where the confusion is. I assumed it was a thing because of the comics but I don't believe they've said it, so either it's just a bit weird the shared experience doesn't seem to have an impact on their relationship, or it's not a thing, which I feel leaves an odd hole in her motivations for joining.
 
Where was this mentioned? I'm not saying you're wrong, to be clear, I just can't actually find anything on this.

I Googled 'Batwoman CW Cast' and his character is listed as Colonel, and the Wiki for the series also has him listed as a 'former military colonel.' Don't know if you'd take those sources as 'legit' or not. But seeing as he was also in the comics then that's what I'm going forward with unless told otherwise by the show.
 
I Googled 'Batwoman CW Cast' and his character is listed as Colonel, and the Wiki for the series also has him listed as a 'former military colonel.' Don't know if you'd take those sources as 'legit' or not. But seeing as he was also in the comics then that's what I'm going forward with unless told otherwise by the show.
If the only source you could find was the wiki, that should tell you how "legit" the source should be considered.

You want people to assume the comics matter here, where they continually change material from the comics, including some of the most important aspects of characters and plot points, because... well why exactly? It helps your argument? Also, if that do is military, they should really have him act like he is military. Because he most certainly doesn't.
 
If the only source you could find was the wiki, that should tell you how "legit" the source should be considered.

You want people to assume the comics matter here, where they continually change material from the comics, including some of the most important aspects of characters and plot points, because... well why exactly? It helps your argument? Also, if that do is military, they should really have him act like he is military. Because he most certainly doesn't.

What argument..? :huh: I'm just saying what I found, so take that any way you want. IMDb also lists him as Colonel, if you want a third source, and considering that's what he was in the comics then that is what I am going with until shown otherwise in-series. Feel free to think otherwise...;)
 
What argument..? :huh: I'm just saying what I found, so take that any way you want. IMDb also lists him as Colonel, if you want a third source, and considering that's what he was in the comics then that is what I am going with until shown otherwise in-series. Feel free to think otherwise...;)
You mean outside of the tireless defending?

Here is the thing. The question from the start wasn't about what the source material says. Snow Queen has made it clear multiple times she knows it. It is a question of what the show has said and actually done. He might be military, they might bring it up later. But up to this point he has not acted like it, nor has it informed their relationship. Which is why saying that is what the source material says, some casting sides or the wiki doesn't really inform the conversation at all. Because we are talking about the show's presentation of the character.
 
That the CW will fully use the "lesbian" thing was never a question to begin with.
Its the CW...they made Olicity a thing.

I dont have a problem to involve Kates private life, afterall its not just a show that focuses just on her as Batwoman.
Every CW superhero show had a strong focus on the romance aspect, dont see why Kate shouldnt get this.

But the problem is that the CW is bad at such stuff, they were bad in tackling feminism in supergirl they were bad in LOT with Sara and so on...so i can see them tackle this too in a incredible dumb way.

That for Kate...as Batwoman the show shouldnt bother or tackle her sexuality at all imo.
I mean it wasnt for a second any concern in flash or arrow...and im not sure supergirl tackled that either.
When she walks around as Batwoman it shouldnt be matter at all that she is a female or which sexuality the character has.

But again, its CW...they will milk and expose when they can just for the sake of it.
Because they are hardly ever genuine.

Exploring Kates relationship and so on is a nice idea, it brings one closer to the character and does fine characterwork...if done right.
I disagree. It should matter. The issues isn't that it shouldn't matter, the issue is how they handle Kate being "gay". She is played less as a gay character and more as a default gay stand-in, who has very little to her beyond that. She basically is there to stand-in for gay folk and react in the most twitter way possible to rather overt scenarios.

Like the best heroes in the comics, what makes up Kate in the source material makes up who she is as Batwoman. Think of Kal-El the immigrant, and how that plays into how he presents Superman. It's the same for the orphan boy Bruce and the warrior princess Diana. The issue here imo, is that the showrunner seems to think that the only to touch on the topic is through very overt moments of her being treated poorly because of it, or because she is upset with someone over not knowing or acknowledging it.

Writing Kate as a gay character is important. But you need both parts. She can't just be this gay stand-in. She needs to be an actual character. You need to think how Kate Kane would handle such a situation, even when dressed as Batwoman. Would Kate be annoyed by people assuming Batwoman is straight? I am going to go with no. Beyond finding it rather amusing, she is a character who was secure in her sexuality from the moment she told the academy to go **** itself. For all of Kate's problems, and she has a lot of them, that wasn't even on the radar by the time she was Batwoman. The kind of person who showed up in suits, looking like a character out of an 80s vampire flick, because that is who she is.

For me, one of the best qualities of the original Batwoman material is that she is a gay character, who simply lived that life. She wasn't moving mountains over it. It was a big deal in the realm of mainstream comics, that she herself never made a big deal out of. Because the story they were telling was that of a gay character. After the origin, her conflict mostly came from the more classical superhero sources. You know, an evil twin, Killer Croc, a ghost who is an urban legend, and a lying father. Even her issues with Maggie were similar. The normal issues you'd associate with a vigilantly crime fighter trying to have a relationship. It wasn't until DC editorial stepped in, did that change. And when the comic came back for another short but brilliant run, it was back to how it was before. Now... now we are back in the era of "Kate and Maggie can't get married and they need to break up because they are gay and jealous men can't handle that".
 
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The kind of person who showed up in suits, looking like a character out of an 80s vampire flick, because that is who she is.
This reminds me how much I wish they were making an effort to give her some imagery of her own for the show. It's pretty standard Batman stuff in the same way early Arrow was, but leaning into it a bit harder. I always thought looking at classic vampire movie visuals would be a cool way to go about giving her something distinctly different, given the design of the character feels rather in line with that.
 
This reminds me how much I wish they were making an effort to give her some imagery of her own for the show. It's pretty standard Batman stuff in the same way early Arrow was, but leaning into it a bit harder. I always thought looking at classic vampire movie visuals would be a cool way to go about giving her something distinctly different, given the design of the character feels rather in line with that.
I agree. It is what the look of Elegy is based on. Very Gothic, but by way of classic monster movies more then just straight up Batman. One of the reasons I don't dig Alice's look or her gangs at all. It is all very standard CW, don't put too much effort into it. Like on Riverdale, when someone puts on a cheap mask and tries to act like a super villain, it's hilarious. It's the joke. On this show it isn't suppose to be a joke. What happened to the days of Arrow and Flash's villains being fly as hell?
 
Yeah I'm aware, that's where the confusion is. I assumed it was a thing because of the comics but I don't believe they've said it, so either it's just a bit weird the shared experience doesn't seem to have an impact on their relationship, or it's not a thing, which I feel leaves an odd hole in her motivations for joining.

It doesn’t seem Kate ever considered the military a career. Rather, it was a stepping-stone to gain admittance into the Crows (and, more generally, to earn her father’s approval). Thus, when she was booted out of Point Rock, she agreed with Jacob’s suggestion to travel the world and continue her combat training. So from Kate’s POV, this was simply an alternative path to the real goal - the Crows. Jacob’s motives, however, are less clear. Indications are he never wanted Kate to join the Crows - and keeping her busy with the military academy, travel and training was just a pretext. It’s also possible that Jacob never fully accepted his daughter’s sexual orientation and preferred to keep her at a distance (literally).

Bottom line: story logic-wise, it makes sense that someone who heads a security firm would have some sort of background in that field. But in terms of the show’s character dynamics, Jacob being ex-military (in particular) doesn’t appear to be thematically relevant. (See above.)
 
It doesn’t seem Kate ever considered the military a career. Rather, it was a stepping-stone to gain admittance into the Crows (and, more generally, to earn her father’s approval). Thus, when she was booted out of Point Rock, she agreed with Jacob’s suggestion to travel the world and continue her combat training. So from Kate’s POV, this was simply an alternative path to the real goal - the Crows. Jacob’s motives, however, are less clear. Indications are he never wanted Kate to join the Crows - and keeping her busy with the military academy, travel and training was just a pretext. It’s also possible that Jacob never fully accepted his daughter’s sexual orientation and preferred to keep her at a distance (literally).

Bottom line: story logic-wise, it makes sense that someone who heads a security firm would have some sort of background in that field. But in terms of the show’s character dynamics, Jacob being ex-military (in particular) doesn’t appear to be thematically relevant. (See above.)
I don't seem to recall that being said, but perhaps I missed it in a line. It definitely wasn't the impression I get out of her scenes, but if that's what they're doing then that's what they're doing. That direction sucks the power out of the whole bit about her getting kicked out, but I'll say that's not inconsistent even if it still sounds bad.
 
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It doesn’t seem Kate ever considered the military a career. Rather, it was a stepping-stone to gain admittance into the Crows (and, more generally, to earn her father’s approval). Thus, when she was booted out of Point Rock, she agreed with Jacob’s suggestion to travel the world and continue her combat training. So from Kate’s POV, this was simply an alternative path to the real goal - the Crows. Jacob’s motives, however, are less clear. Indications are he never wanted Kate to join the Crows - and keeping her busy with the military academy, travel and training was just a pretext. It’s also possible that Jacob never fully accepted his daughter’s sexual orientation and preferred to keep her at a distance (literally).

Bottom line: story logic-wise, it makes sense that someone who heads a security firm would have some sort of background in that field. But in terms of the show’s character dynamics, Jacob being ex-military (in particular) doesn’t appear to be thematically relevant. (See above.)
In other words, because they ditched a lot of her important character motivations from the book, and lessened her relationship with her father. When Kate got kicked out of the academy it was her choosing herself over following her father's legacy. Which was a big deal. Because her and her father were all each other had. She grew up wanting to be him, because he was her rock when she really needed it. When she lost her mother and sister, and when she finally became Batwoman. Which always setup her relationship with her step-mom to be failure, and made his betrayal of her such a big deal. But hey, why tell that nuance tale, with that well put together story, when you can do it this overtly lesser way, that removes the intricacies of the character. :atp:

The sexual orientation thing would be hilarious.
 
You mean outside of the tireless defending?

Here is the thing. The question from the start wasn't about what the source material says. Snow Queen has made it clear multiple times she knows it. It is a question of what the show has said and actually done. He might be military, they might bring it up later. But up to this point he has not acted like it, nor has it informed their relationship. Which is why saying that is what the source material says, some casting sides or the wiki doesn't really inform the conversation at all. Because we are talking about the show's presentation of the character.

Didn't realize I was 'tirelessly defending,' what with one preceding entry on the topic... But thanks for your view on my intentions.:D
Personally, I'm merely having a discussion/theorization and going with comic-canon until they say otherwise because that's pretty much all there is. Whether or not he is 'acting' military-like is beside the point, as obviously he is no longer military in the series.

As to Kate being a gay character, unless I've missed something, the only time she's made a big stand on her sexuality was when someone else has gotten into her face about it. Being kicked out of Point Rock and then when the restaurant owner tried to kick her and Sophie out for holding hands are the two most glaring moments. Which would make her responses reactionary rather something like wandering around with an LGBT flag hanging off her shoulders.


It doesn’t seem Kate ever considered the military a career. Rather, it was a stepping-stone to gain admittance into the Crows (and, more generally, to earn her father’s approval). Thus, when she was booted out of Point Rock, she agreed with Jacob’s suggestion to travel the world and continue her combat training. So from Kate’s POV, this was simply an alternative path to the real goal - the Crows. Jacob’s motives, however, are less clear. Indications are he never wanted Kate to join the Crows - and keeping her busy with the military academy, travel and training was just a pretext. It’s also possible that Jacob never fully accepted his daughter’s sexual orientation and preferred to keep her at a distance (literally).

Bottom line: story logic-wise, it makes sense that someone who heads a security firm would have some sort of background in that field. But in terms of the show’s character dynamics, Jacob being ex-military (in particular) doesn’t appear to be thematically relevant. (See above.)

How I saw all that too. Kate lost her mother and her sister to criminals like the Joker and they pretty much wrecked her world. I see her drive to join the Crows less as a need to be by her father's side, but a need to combat those same criminals. And with her early disillusionment with Batman, thinking he had abandoned them when they needed him, her choosing her father's way with the Crows seemed the most logical and viable.
Then she finds that Bruce thought they were safe and blamed himself for years about the deaths and, with her father shutting the Crow's door in her face, suddenly donning the dusty batsuit was
the better idea.

I agree. It is what the look of Elegy is based on. Very Gothic, but by way of classic monster movies more then just straight up Batman. One of the reasons I don't dig Alice's look or her gangs at all. It is all very standard CW, don't put too much effort into it. Like on Riverdale, when someone puts on a cheap mask and tries to act like a super villain, it's hilarious. It's the joke. On this show it isn't suppose to be a joke. What happened to the days of Arrow and Flash's villains being fly as hell?

I'm good with Alice, as she is a mix of sane and messed up. Her gang is a little too two dimensional though, but then they are the side-kicks and not the main draw.

I do hope at some point we will get the other villains from the comics, such as Bloody Mary and Medusa.
 
I don't seem to recall that being said, but perhaps I missed it in a line. It definitely wasn't the impression I get out of her scenes, but if that's what they're doing then that's what they're doing. That direction sucks the power out of the whole bit about her getting kicked out...

Well, if Kate’s expulsion from Point Rock was a source of great shame and dishonor for Jacob, then establishing him as a proud, traditional, by-the-book military guy would make a lot of sense. Indeed, Jacob might have explicitly blamed Kate’s gayness for this dishonor. (Had she only signed the paper, she’d have graduated as an officer and perhaps followed in Dad’s footsteps.) Certainly, this scenario would have provided a dramatic tension between Kate and Jacob. But it also sounds a tad… hackneyed. To wit: uptight, old-fashioned father doesn’t “get” the modern world, and interprets his daughter’s orientation as rebellion (as if it was a choice). So if you're talking "nuance," this ain't it.

Obviously, this is not how the show decided to play things. Based on what we’ve seen, Kate getting kicked out of the military academy wasn’t a shameful, personal insult for Jacob. (HIs plan for Kate just shifted to something else.) And if Jacob does harbor some homophobic feelings, these are subtle and repressed. On the surface, he’s a loving and accepting father - not a one-dimensional bigot. Furthermore, this means (as mentioned) that Jacob being ex-military is an extraneous detail. Now, It might turn out that he is, indeed, ex-military. Or, he could be ex-FBI or ex-Homeland Security. But this doesn’t have to be established upfront (e.g., in the pilot) because the specifics of Jacob’s background don’t materially inform Kate’s arc. That arc is the same whether Jacob is a former Colonel or a former Special Agent-in-Charge or a former something else.
 
Well, if Kate’s expulsion from Point Rock was a source of great shame and dishonor for Jacob, then establishing him as a proud, traditional, by-the-book military guy would make a lot of sense. Indeed, Jacob might have explicitly blamed Kate’s gayness for this dishonor. (Had she only signed the paper, she’d have graduated as an officer and perhaps followed in Dad’s footsteps.) Certainly, this scenario would have provided a dramatic tension between Kate and Jacob. But it also sounds a tad… hackneyed. To wit: uptight, old-fashioned father doesn’t “get” the modern world, and interprets his daughter’s orientation as rebellion (as if it was a choice). So if you're talking "nuance," this ain't it.

Obviously, this is not how the show decided to play things. Based on what we’ve seen, Kate getting kicked out of the military academy wasn’t a shameful, personal insult for Jacob. (HIs plan for Kate just shifted to something else.) And if Jacob does harbor some homophobic feelings, these are subtle and repressed. On the surface, he’s a loving and accepting father - not a one-dimensional bigot. Furthermore, this means (as mentioned) that Jacob being ex-military is an extraneous detail. Now, It might turn out that he is, indeed, ex-military. Or, he could be ex-FBI or ex-Homeland Security. But this doesn’t have to be established upfront (e.g., in the pilot) because the specifics of Jacob’s background don’t materially inform Kate’s arc. That arc is the same whether Jacob is a former Colonel or a former Special Agent-in-Charge or a former something else.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to think I want him to be homophobic? That's not the case, and I never said that. Yeah, it's a hackneyed idea and stupid, but I wasn't even talking about him there. I was speaking to what that change in motivation does to her and what that moment means to her character, not his. I don't really care what it does to his. Well, that's not fair, I do, but it's fractional compared to what it means to the character it's happening to. To illustrate what I mean, I'm going to compare it to the material it's adapting.

In the storyline it's covering, Kate grew up in a military family. Mom and dad both a part of it, moving around constantly. The event that led to her sister being presumed dead was a kidnapping, and ignoring what the changes to that do to Jacob's character for a moment, she's saved by members of the military. Because of the combination of factors like those, along with wanting to be closer to her dad, one can understand why the character presented goes for the military option and intends to stick with it. Her being expelled then throws her off the direction she had planned for her life. The life she wanted was taken away from her for unjust reasons, leading to her spinning out into depressive, self-destructive behaviours until she gets a wake up call in the form of an incident with Batman. As an aside, her dad's response is her mother would be proud of her. Having a military background doesn't mean he has to be homophobic, and I'm not sure why those were connected.

Now, rolling with your explanation for why she enrolled in this universe as, while I don't remember this being said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on it as I was putting a shelf together during the last episode. Kate joins up because she wants to join dad's private military organization and his plan for her. If this is so, she does not intend to stick around. She does not want this life, and there's no explanation given for why she would, so that's understandable. Her life doesn't get thrown off the path she wanted by a dramatic angle when she's expelled, her dad just sends her to train with different people instead before she can join up. When she returns home, she finds out he won't let her join and that throws her life in a different direction.

By changing that, it no longer really has the impact that the attention they're giving it warrants. Instead, the equivalent moment to her comics counterpart being kicked out is her dad telling her he won't allow her to join, but that moment isn't treated with the same weight and her relationship with her father remains in nebulous protective dad territory because Jacob has nothing else to him. In this version, the most that situation impacts is a breakup, which is textbook CW. Otherwise, it has about the same impact on her as the restaurant owner being homophobic (poorly handled as it was) did. If that's what they are doing, I think that's outright bad.
 
...I'm going to compare it to the material it's adapting.

In the storyline it's covering, Kate grew up in a military family. Mom and dad both a part of it, moving around constantly. The event that led to her sister being presumed dead was a kidnapping, and ignoring what the changes to that do to Jacob's character for a moment, she's saved by members of the military. Because of the combination of factors like those, along with wanting to be closer to her dad, one can understand why the character presented goes for the military option and intends to stick with it. Her being expelled then throws her off the direction she had planned for her life. The life she wanted was taken away from her for unjust reasons, leading to her spinning out into depressive, self-destructive behaviours until she gets a wake up call in the form of an incident with Batman.

I appreciate your description. Since I haven’t read the comics, it was cool to learn some of the differences. :up:

However, an observation: There’s been criticism (in this forum) about Kate joining the military in the first place. I.e., why would a gay woman want to be part of an organization that doesn’t want her? Well, in the TV version, there’s a plausible explanation. Kate never envisioned the military as permanent; it was a means to an end. So as long as nobody “asked” and she didn’t “tell,” she might skate through. But how did that work in the comics? If Kate (as you say) wanted to be a career officer, does that mean she was not yet out and/or in a kind of denial? And if so, getting expelled was actually a crucial/personal turning point, yes?

These two versions (TV vs. comics) strike me as interesting variations. In one, Kate is out as a young teen; and in the other this occurs (apparently) in early adulthood. In one, the military was never the final goal; in the other, it was. But in both, the paths eventually get us to “Batwoman.” That said, it’s not obvious to me that one version is intrinsically better than the other.

Back to Jacob. In a prior discussion, it was suggested that not clearly identifying him as ex-military was a significant flaw. But of course, this depends on which interpretation one is referring to. In the comics, Jacob being military seems rather relevant to the backstory. In the TV version, it’s far less so.

Anyway, good to talk to you. :toth
 
I appreciate your description. Since I haven’t read the comics, it was cool to learn some of the differences. :up:

However, an observation: There’s been criticism (in this forum) about Kate joining the military in the first place. I.e., why would a gay woman want to be part of an organization that doesn’t want her? Well, in the TV version, there’s a plausible explanation. Kate never envisioned the military as permanent; it was a means to an end. So as long as nobody “asked” and she didn’t “tell,” she might skate through. But how did that work in the comics? If Kate (as you say) wanted to be a career officer, does that mean she was not yet out and/or in a kind of denial? And if so, getting expelled was actually a crucial/personal turning point, yes?

Happy to ramble far more than necessary about things I enjoy :up:

Unless I am forgetting anything, the only reference to her sexuality during the initial Rucka/Williams III stuff chronologically prior to that point is her being grossed out by a boy liking her as a kid. I reference their run in particular here because they're the ones who made the major backstory decisions and everyone else just adds stuff around it, so it's the closest equivalent to the showrunner putting together their own backstory without anyone getting a chance to retcon them. Plus Andreyko's run is pretty awful and the Detective Comics stuff is in one ear and back out the other and I don't remember if either of them added anything. I want to say maybe Andreyko's vampire girlfriend plot that should be burned may have had backstory when they were teens but I can't quite recall. Bennett's run is generally quite good but I'm getting off topic. The point is that I don't seem to recall the run that established that explicitly made her away of her sexuality prior to the military. As a result, one possible reading is that she didn't actually know before her time in the military. It's not what I would lean to, but it's an option I could see.

However, whether she did or not, I think her choice makes sense due to the childhood she has, which is part of why I'd lean away from during West Point and towards prior to that. She grows up in a military family, and one of the first scenes of her backstory is her missing her dad as he's off on deployment. When she's kidnapped, who does she see come to her rescue? A military group. I feel like there's a clear throughline here where I can see why she'd associate the military with certain ideals. It is a crucial turning point, and I'd argue one of the three essential moments in her backstory, and the impact ripples out through the rest of her development as Batwoman as she initially frames it to her dad as getting a chance to serve. It also serves to double back to the point that part of all of this is wanting to be closer to the only person she had left between her father, mother and sister.

As well, and this is running into speculation territory, the new 52 section where J.H. Williams became writer as well as (every second volume) artist, he gives her a villain in a government agency, the DEO run by Director Bones. They serve as the main antagonists of the run, appearing from start to finish. They force her into working for them as more or less an agent/soldier.

To me, the arc feels like it's building to a change in her perspective on the matter of the military/government, as the arc makes sure to associate the villains with her desire to join up. They aren't interested in the law, otherwise they'd arrest her and everyone they threaten to, they're interested in having an asset they can exploit until she's no longer useful. They're even willing to offer the release of a killer in exchange for her unmasking Batman. However, the arc was cut two issues short, and the conclusion written by Andreyko is a poor replacement, so we'll probably never see what the actual plan was. But I always thought it was an interesting choice to make her biggest adversaries in the New 52 run to be the government she wished to serve, and that choice feels like it was intended to further complicate the idealized version of the military her childhood had given her.

My problem with the TV version is now that section doesn't actually matter the way it thinks it does. If it's a stepping stone she never intended to be permanent, then it's more of a minor complication. Though she also takes it personally in a way that I don't think feels consistent with that. Not that it isn't bigoted and wrong, but when she says stuff to the extent of "They don't want us here, let's go," I'm left scratching my head why she chose to be here at all. They said it up front. For me, this motivation change is basically like if the new Batman movie opened with his parents dying in a car crash because Thomas was tailgating. Looking at an outline, the same point is accomplished. She's expelled, his parents are dead, but the alterations made change what that moment means. And, at least in one case, it's for a vastly inferior version.

These two versions (TV vs. comics) strike me as interesting variations. In one, Kate is out as a young teen; and in the other this occurs (apparently) in early adulthood. In one, the military was never the final goal; in the other, it was. But in both, the paths eventually get us to “Batwoman.” That said, it’s not obvious to me that one version is intrinsically better than the other.

Back to Jacob. In a prior discussion, it was suggested that not clearly identifying him as ex-military was a significant flaw. But of course, this depends on which interpretation one is referring to. In the comics, Jacob being military seems rather relevant to the backstory. In the TV version, it’s far less so.

Anyway, good to talk to you. :toth
Obviously, I disagree with the last bit. While the comics version holds a sentimental place to begin with, I feel like the TV version has lost everything I enjoyed in the character and those around her. They don't feel like the characters I fell in love with. From the actors, to the writing, they feel vacant of anything compelling. The only reason I keep watching is because my favourite comic character doesn't exactly get a lot of adaptations and I'd rather just know what they do with it for good or unfortunately mostly bad rather than wonder. But even as it's own thing, I just don't think this is very good. Three of the main performances are awful, there's nothing compelling to these characters, their relationships still feel broad, the self-serious tone makes the bad writing stick out more, and the plot's meandering and feels like it's already struggling to sustain the length.

It's not relevant to the TV version because it's seemingly not there, and I think that has a negative effect on the characters.

And to you. :up:
 
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However, an observation: There’s been criticism (in this forum) about Kate joining the military in the first place. I.e., why would a gay woman want to be part of an organization that doesn’t want her? Well, in the TV version, there’s a plausible explanation. Kate never envisioned the military as permanent; it was a means to an end. So as long as nobody “asked” and she didn’t “tell,” she might skate through. But how did that work in the comics? If Kate (as you say) wanted to be a career officer, does that mean she was not yet out and/or in a kind of denial? And if so, getting expelled was actually a crucial/personal turning point, yes?
I never took it as her being in denial. She was just doing what she had to do, like many gay folk in the military at the time. But when confronted with the choice of either lying about her self or leaving the military, she choose to leave the military. Now this choice has a bigger impact on Kate, as it led her to a rather destructive early 20s, as her father and the military structure that kept her from dwelling too much on her feelings, were gone. But it also a part of the resolve that allows her to be Batwoman eventually.

One of the big issues with how they handle it on the show, is it is a big contradiction. If Kate is so out and proud to be making out in broad daylight, why the heck is she there in the first place? Especially as the shows reasoning is super weak in terms of what it will get her. They wanted the big moment, without any of the impact it serves. It reminds me of many bad adaptations of material, where they adapt a scene, missing the impact and purpose.

These two versions (TV vs. comics) strike me as interesting variations. In one, Kate is out as a young teen; and in the other this occurs (apparently) in early adulthood. In one, the military was never the final goal; in the other, it was. But in both, the paths eventually get us to “Batwoman.” That said, it’s not obvious to me that one version is intrinsically better than the other.
Oh, the comic is intrinsically better. In terms of character, purpose, long term storytelling, etc.

Back to Jacob. In a prior discussion, it was suggested that not clearly identifying him as ex-military was a significant flaw. But of course, this depends on which interpretation one is referring to. In the comics, Jacob being military seems rather relevant to the backstory. In the TV version, it’s far less so.
This is another situation where I find a similar flaw to the changes with Kate. Beyond making him obviously a lesser character (he is such a CW character), and hurting Kate with it, they are trying to hit emotional focal points bit on ideas that they haven't used. This week's episode is fantastic example of that.
 
But was she 'out and proud' when she as at Rock Point? I seem to recall the first interaction between her and Sophie is them clandestinely making out and then being discovered. Now it was Sophie's concern of being found out but it certainly is possible for Kate to also have been flying under the gaydar at that point. Once they were found out though, she didn't deny it.

As to going into an organization knowing they have a bigoted policy, that had not stopped many brave men and women from joining the armed forces.
 
But was she 'out and proud' when she as at Point Rock? I seem to recall the first interaction between her and Sophie is them clandestinely making out and then being discovered. Now it was Sophie's concern of being found out but it certainly is possible for Kate to also have been flying under the gaydar at that point. Once they were found out though, she didn't deny it.

Depends how you define "out." :word:

In an earlier episode, Kate (via narration) explained that she came out in her early/mid teens and thereafter never denied her orientation. Now, some interpreted this as a goof - inasmuch as she would have to be closeted (by necessity) in order to serve in the military. But methinks there’s plausible wiggle room because of the equivocal nature of “don’t ask, don’t tell.” I.e., “not telling” isn’t quite the same as denying. And as you say: when Kate was given the opportunity to deny, she refused.
 
I'm just here to say that personally I find Batwoman uninteresting and boring.
Lesbian, ex-military, crazy sister, sad backstory, WHATEVER...None of it is particularly striking.
I drop her comic early on, and the show is just...No.
Four episodes in and I couldn't anymore.

Batwoman the show and the character have nothing to offer. Besides maybe representation, but even that's shoddily done.
 
I'm just here to say that personally I find Batwoman uninteresting and boring. ...Four episodes in and I couldn't anymore... ...Batwoman the show and the character have nothing to offer...

One of the challenges Batwoman faces is “superhero fatigue” (generally) and “CW superhero fatigue” (more specifically). I.e., this same material might have seemed fresh/novel (for TV, at least) back in 2012 when Arrow premiered. But fast-forward several years and Batwoman is presented as the fifth Arrowverse series. (With more to come.) And one wonders how many “variations of the same theme” general audiences will continue to follow.

Interestingly, this has never been much of a concern in the comic book world. I don’t think any CB publisher ever worried about too many superheroes. :cwink: Or about a new/spinoff superhero being redundant or derivative. :word: But TV is a different landscape. And, arguably, fatigue and oversaturation are real things.

Anyhoo… if you’re someone who had given up on the Arrowverse but decided to give Batwoman a look out of curiosity, I can appreciate the disappointment. The series adheres to formula: there’s no profound innovation, no reinvention of the wheel. But from within the Arrowverse bubble - grading on that curve - I think Batwoman holds up. Put another way, I think it would be exceedingly difficult to praise/defend Supergirl or Legends of Tomorrow or the weaker seasons of Flash and Arrow and then single out Batwoman as conspicuously inferior. IMO, there’s no sense to that evaluation.
 

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