Justice League Ben Affleck IS Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 6

You still haven't given anything he could do in that situation. If with time you aren't able to come up with a realistic way out for Batman in that specific situation, then how could we reasonably expect him to come up with one in that exact moment?
 
You still haven't given anything he could do in that situation. If with time you aren't able to come up with a realistic way out for Batman in that specific situation, then how could we reasonably expect him to come up with one in that exact moment?
Are you even a Batman fan? If you have to ask that question...yikes.
 
So no version of Batman ever can kill. Not even a version that exists as an Elseworld within another Elseworld.

Silly lol.
I never said that. I’m even OK with what he did in BvS now because we have JL to show his progression. There’s no reason for him to go back to the BvS mindset.
 
If he’s killing Joker then that means he will be going back to BvS. It’s not gonna happen anyway. But stop pretending these are just what if’s. In Snyder’s head canon the Knightmare timeline isn’t just a what if, it’s actually the sequel. You guys would be OK with a 4 hour sequel with Batman murdering more ppl? Or are you cool with it because it’s just a 4 minute scene?
 
If he’s killing Joker then that means he will be going back to BvS. It’s not gonna happen anyway. But stop pretending these are just what if’s. In Snyder’s head canon the Knightmare timeline isn’t just a what if, it’s actually the sequel. You guys would be OK with a 4 hour sequel with Batman murdering more ppl? Or are you cool with it because it’s just a 4 minute scene?

I don’t get why you’re conflating two different timelines.
 
Are these kinghtmare scenes taking place before the bvs ones? Cause batman got killed by supes already in the knightmre timeline :huh:
 
If he’s killing Joker then that means he will be going back to BvS. It’s not gonna happen anyway. But stop pretending these are just what if’s. In Snyder’s head canon the Knightmare timeline isn’t just a what if, it’s actually the sequel. You guys would be OK with a 4 hour sequel with Batman murdering more ppl? Or are you cool with it because it’s just a 4 minute scene?

I wanted to make a distinction here, maybe most will not care but still.

Batman in BvS does not commit pre-meditated murder. He doesnt go out of his way to go murder someone to take them out(until Superman, and even then he didnt go through with it). He had guns in his Batmobile. He could have blown everyone away during the chase. He could have just shot people with his gun in the warehouse and take everyone out(like he did in the knigtmare scene). He didnt. He engaged in hand to hand combat and relied on his gadgets. He only shot, when he was being shot at and had no option. Same when he was in the batwing, he even gave warning shots. Make no mistake, if he didnt fire back, he would have been dead/blown up himself. Even in the warehouse, he could have just killed the russian with a headshot. He didnt. Batman as shown in BvS, kills. But he kills in self defence, or rather he is reckless enough to not care if someone dies in battle with him. He does not outright murder someone in cold blood, punisher style. The movie criticises his reckless and cruel behaviour, and Batman in the end promises to do better, and we see him change by not branding Luthor.

Does that make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. If you purely look at it as a black and white "KILL/NO KILL" way, then yeah he is a killer. But in real life, there are nuances to the killing thing, where sometimes its justified. Cops are allowed to kill...in self defence. That doesnt mean they are no worse than the people they are up against, nor that ever mean that now that they have crossed a line, they will just keep murdering people left and right. Its not good logic, nobody thinks that way. I think Nolan's Batman also killed or rather had reckless kills(the ninjas, Dent etc). Burton's Batman was a straight up murderer. So I think there's a sense of moral justification there.

I think post Superman's death Batman or pre BvS Batman...had a code. That code was save as many lives as possible, without killing. And not being a cruel mf obviously, no branding and ****. Snyder is going to be asked about Batman's code pre Robin's death in the IGN panel(submitted question), it would be interesting to see his response. Now what happens in the knightmare timeline? Batman murders. Yes. Do I think that's okay? No. Do I think that's justified? No. Do I accept it in a story where everything has gone wrong(Superman evil, most JLers dead, earth destroyed)...yes.

As for the argument that he had a redemption, how can he go rogue again? Well I would argue that not only is it realistic, that people fall again after a redemption(you can liken this to a relapse) but we have seen similar arcs in acclaimed shows/movies. Jesse Pinkman in Breaking Bad for example.

Batman can still act like Batman.

Here's the thing. Snyder deliberately puts Batman in situations where he would HAVE to kill to survive. Where he would have no other choice but to kill. In situations where if he doesnt break his code...people will die. Now what would Batman do? Not kill and let people die? Or break his own code, and save people? There's no other option, because they as a writer wont give him an easy way out. As Snyder put it, the "Kobayashi Maru". That's disturbing to see, because we are so used to Batman always finding a way out. But I think its interesting. Its also what I think Miller did with the child rescue thing in TDKR, but he was smart, he left it ambiguous. Why do this? Well, its very simple to write a story where he says "I dont kill" and never put him in a situation where he needs to. Its extremely simple. I think its far more interesting to put him in a difficult spot, and see what effect that has on his psyche. It could/should be explored way more than it was in BvS(mostly wasnt because that movie was a ensemble, and not really a pure Batman movie and had so much else going on). I think a story like Redhood where Batman doesnt kill and that results in a huge calamity could be a very interesting story to tell. Its deconstructive, so I totally understand if its not your cup of tea.
 
Last edited:
Are these kinghtmare scenes taking place before the bvs ones? Cause batman got killed by supes already in the knightmre timeline :huh:

There's 3 timelines.

Time line 1 : The timeline where Batman dies. Flash goes back in time and visits Bruce in the cave.

Timeline 2 : Bruce is visited in the cave. This is the timeline we are seeing in the movies. Since Flash jumped to the wrong spot, knightmare still happens. Flash goes back in time again, this time to the correct window,

Timeline 3: Bruce does the sacrifice play. Knightmare is averted.
 
I wanted to make a distinction here, maybe most will not care but still.

Batman in BvS does not commit pre-meditated murder. He doesnt go out of his way to go murder someone to take them out(until Superman, and even then he didnt go through with it). He had guns in his Batmobile. He could have blown everyone away during the chase. He could have just shot people with his gun in the warehouse and take everyone out(like he did in the knigtmare scene). He didnt. He engaged in hand to hand combat and relied on his gadgets. He only shot, when he was being shot at and had no option. Same when he was in the batwing, he even gave warning shots. Make no mistake, if he didnt fire back, he would have been dead/blown up himself. Even in the warehouse, he could have just killed the russian with a headshot. He didnt. Batman as shown in BvS, kills. But he kills in self defence, or rather he is reckless enough to not care if someone dies in battle with him. He does not outright murder someone in cold blood, punisher style. The movie criticises his reckless and cruel behaviour, and Batman in the end promises to do better, and we see him change by not branding Luthor.

Does that make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. If you purely look at it as a black and white "KILL/NO KILL" way, then yeah he is a killer. But in real life, there are nuances to the killing thing, where sometimes its justified. Cops are allowed to kill...in self defence. That doesnt mean they are no worse than the people they are up against, nor that ever mean that now that they have crossed a line, they will just keep murdering people left and right. Its not good logic, nobody thinks that way. I think Nolan's Batman also killed or rather had reckless kills(the ninjas, Dent etc). Burton's Batman was a straight up murderer. So I think there's a sense of moral justification there.

I think post Superman's death Batman or pre BvS Batman...had a code. That code was save as many lives as possible, without killing. And not being a cruel mf obviously, no branding and ****. Snyder is going to be asked about Batman's code pre Robin's death in the IGN panel(submitted question), it would be interesting to see his response. Now what happens in the knightmare timeline? Batman murders. Yes. Do I think that's okay? No. Do I think that's justified? No. Do I accept it in a story where everything has gone wrong(Superman evil, most JLers dead, earth destroyed)...yes.

As for the argument that he had a redemption, how can he go rogue again? Well I would argue that not only is it realistic, that people fall again after a redemption(you can liken this to a relapse) but we have seen similar arcs in acclaimed shows/movies. Jesse Pinkman in Breaking Bad for example.



Here's the thing. Snyder deliberately puts Batman in situations where he would HAVE to kill to survive. Where he would have no other choice but to kill. In situations where if he doesnt break his code...people will die. Now what would Batman do? Not kill and let people die? Or break his own code, and save people? There's no other option, because they as a writer wont give him an easy way out. As Snyder put it, the "Kobayashi Maru". That's disturbing to see, because we are so used to Batman always finding a way out. But I think its interesting. Its also what I think Miller did with the child rescue thing in TDKR, but he was smart, he left it ambiguous. Why do this? Well, its very simple to write a story where he says "I dont kill" and never put him in a situation where he needs to. Its extremely simple. I think its far more interesting to put him in a difficult spot, and see what effect that has on his psyche. It could/should be explored way more than it was in BvS(mostly wasnt because that movie was a ensemble, and not really a pure Batman movie and had so much else going on). I think a story like Redhood where Batman doesnt kill and that results in a huge calamity could be a very interesting story to tell. Its deconstructive, so I totally understand if its not your cup of tea.


i like your argument. im one of those who didnt like ZS direction. For me our introduction to this batman is he been a killer. he had his rise and breakdown to this pint all off screen. I think if it was established that batman doesnt kill but for the treat of superman he has to break that rule. it might have been easier to swallow. this is a world where batman kills but he didnt kill joker. who knows maybe more of his rouges gallery is still alive.

i think that could have been batmans "Kobayashi Maru" i have to kill this one time to save humanity. he knows he will lose that part of himself. perhaps thats the case in the knightmare future.
 
There's 3 timelines.

Time line 1 : The timeline where Batman dies. Flash goes back in time and visits Bruce in the cave.

Timeline 2 : Bruce is visited in the cave. This is the timeline we are seeing in the movies. Since Flash jumped to the wrong spot, knightmare still happens. Flash goes back in time again, this time to the correct window,

Timeline 3: Bruce does the sacrifice play. Knightmare is averted.
Where is the distinction between 2 and 3?

The timeline we're presently in (2) should eventually lead to the conclusion in which the Knightmare is averted.
 
Where is the distinction between 2 and 3?

The timeline we're presently in (2) should eventually lead to the conclusion in which the Knightmare is averted.

I think the knightmare we see in BvS was timeline 1. And the knightmare we see in JL will be timeline 2(present timeline). Time line 3 will be the timeline created AFTER Flash goes back to the correct window. I think timeline 3 was meant to be created in JL part 3. Because like you said, after the knightmare is averted, it created a new timeline.
 
I think the knightmare we see in BvS was timeline 1. And the knightmare we see in JL will be timeline 2(present timeline). Time line 3 will be the timeline created AFTER Flash goes back to the correct window. I think timeline 3 was meant to be created in JL part 3. Because like you said, after the knightmare is averted, it created a new timeline.
Spot on. Its a really cool how these movies' events are in a second version of an already established timeline.
 
I am VERY against batman killing because its completely against his character in my eyes and also makes ZERO sense to why any of his villains are alive and why batman just doesnt carry guns now.

If he is okay with killing people then he should have pistols and machine guns and grenades....basically punisher. He basically could just snipe joker or two face from another building and continue on. There is no rogues gallery in that world. Also would find it very unbelievable that gordon and GCPD would allow him at that point. Let alone alfred or bat family but that is a different point.

With that said.....I am okay with it in BvS. That is batman broken. Alfred makes comments. Bruce knows it. That is recent and he is at a point where he is not batman anymore. He is a criminal just like superman says. He is actually a bad guy. Superman is the hero. That is until bruce snaps out of it with the martha scene.

This is where I struggle and think snyder made a major mistake. From that point on....batman should not kill. It should be a huge scene where you see him actively going out of his way of saving people and putting himself in danger to do so. Showing his character development. Imagine bruce in the warehouse scene and he is moving around beating people up but then sees a criminal about to get shot or fall off the building and so he jumps over to save him but also gets shot or injured doing so. It would make that martha scene WAY more touching then it already is (still like it but it makes less sense when a minute later he is blowing people up).

Knightmare sequence is an alternate timeline in my eyes and is all hell breaking lose. Basically the end of the world and heroes lost. ZERO issue with him killing there.
 
EuUomUHUUAgBbSl
 
Killing, not killing. I hope we get to see the complete, properly executed version of Bruce Wayne's redemption. One of the things I'm looking forward to most.
 
who did it kill anyway ? the people who were blasting bullets at him ,when he was about to reach the warehouse to save Martha ?
the chase sequence ? with a man about to launch a bazooka at Him ?
is that what people are complaining about ?

people really be actin like he's on "Punisher Mode" out here .
next time what ? he should apologize to the parademon family for shootin him in his head..?.cause u know he should not kill, that's Not Batman....
 
i don't mind Batman who kills but ever since Batman '89 every Batman has killed so for once i wanna see Batman will strict non kill code on big screen.
 
who did it kill anyway ? the people who were blasting bullets at him ,when he was about to reach the warehouse to save Martha ?
the chase sequence ? with a man about to launch a bazooka at Him ?
is that what people are complaining about ?

people really be actin like he's on "Punisher Mode" out here .
next time what ? he should apologize to the parademon family for shootin him in his head..?.cause u know he should not kill, that's Not Batman....

Yes, the Parademons are sentient creatures, and one of them does have a family:

fnf-bb07.jpg
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"