Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[OopsWhat89]

If the poll were about which is the most "pure" comic book adaptation, anything Marvel would pretty easily win since the whole thing is a comic book universe come to life. (And I think you could argue that the climax of The Avengers was just as much if not more of one giant celebration of the larger world of comics)

But that doesn't make Cap a better trilogy. Also, being "sophisticated" has nothing to do with why I think TDKT is superior. If anything, I've been arguing that it's simpler because it doesn't have all the complications of a shared universe and therefore it's much easier to engage with them as a three film arc.

TDKT simply has more clarity, and IMO more impact as a result. My argument isn't that the Cap films (esp. the last two) aren't great, it's just that what Marvel has created is unprecedented in film history so I look at it as its own thing.

I think he's referring to the themes of TDKT rather than the overall story. And I have to agree. I know people hate this word, but I find TDK and Rises social commentary and themes to be...pretentious. I feel like Nolan and Co. are waving their fingers in my face saying, "Hey! Get it! It's deep and meaningful!" All the while the dialogue is about as nuanced as a brick to the teeth.

The social and political commentary in TWS and CW aren't what I'd call subliminal, but it doesn't feel as overtly preachy or self-important as it does in TDKT.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

The three Cap movies are better as a whole. Better protagonist, much better action, better at the emotional beats, and it doesn't have the kind of writing flaws that clash as much with the story and tone as the latter two in the TDKT have imo.

One thing I find a little funny is when people that adore TDK complain that Helmut Zemo's plan was convenient and convoluted. The Joker is the undisputed king of plans that make no sense unless you rely all on luck and huge plot conveniences. The only time he really set things up in a really smart way is the time it doesn't work out.

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, Cap's 3 movies can most definitely be considered a trilogy. A trilogy simply means a set of 3 movies...telling one story with a beginning, middle, and end is not a requirement.

Two of the most popular "trilogies" are far less connected than Cap's movies. The "Dollars" or "Man with no Name" trilogy ("A Fistful of Dollars", "A Few Dollars More", "The Good, The Bad, And the Ugly") are all standalone movies that are simply spaghetti Westerns starring Clint Eastwood and having the same director, yet are considered a trilogy. The cult favorite "Cornetto" trilogy is even less connected, the only link being the same director, actors, and themes, yet it's often cited as one of the best trilogies out there.

TFA, TWS, and CW are far more eligible than the aforementioned trilogies as they are still the same story with the same characters. Again, a trilogy does not mean a movie with a sequel and threequel. What the TDKT accomplished in telling one beautiful story is commendable, but should not take away from Cap's trilogy.

It's refreshing to see someone who actually knows what the word "trilogy" means.

As many have already stated, it's highly debatable whether the Captain America movies really are a trilogy. Sure, they're three movies featuring the same character. By this logic though, you could basically make all sorts of "trilogies" out of the MCU films. Iron Man 2- Avengers- Iron Man 3 have a character arc you can track...does that make it a trilogy? Same with Cap 1- Avengers- TWS.

This is incredibly faulty logic. So does that mean there is no more "original trilogy" for Star Wars? By your standards, you can make "all sorts of trilogies" out of the Star Wars movies. You can start at Revenge of the Sith, go into Rogue One, and then A New Hope.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I don't mean to say I think you're wrong if you see the Cap movies as a trilogy. If you do and you get added value when viewing the three movies as one bigger thing, great. Personally I still think the fact that there are other films outside of the three films that advance themes and character arcs as well as the plot is what muddles things up. And yes, myself and others were saying that after Iron Man 3 came out too- a film that's way more of a sequel to the Avengers than it is to Iron Man 2- which was more of a prequel to The Avengers than anything else.

And it's definitely true that there are all different types of trilogies including thematic trilogies. I just think, as is, there are better viewing experiences one can have within the MCU that flow better than Cap 1, 2 and 3. Yet I'm not going to call any of those trilogies, even though they feature the same characters.

Personally, for me the true test of whether or not a series is a good trilogy is whether I feel the movies enhance each other and are greater than the sum of their parts when viewed as a whole. There are quite a few series out there that just happen to have 3 movies and are "trilogies" in the loosest sense of the word IMO and I tend not to think of them as trilogies the way I do with Star Wars, Back to the Future, etc.

Maybe I'm just overly traditional when it comes to this, but it's only because I love myself an honest to goodness trilogy and it's just difficult for me to get past the fact that Cap 2 and 3 very much felt like Avengers 1.5 and 2.5.

As much as I love the Captain America movies and would love to vote for them....I don't consider them as a trilogy. They are interconnected with other movies and they are open to having more made.

To me....the Bale BATMAN movies are a trilogy. The HOBBITT movies are a trilogy. The LORD OF THE RINGS movies are a trilogy. The CAPTAIN AMERICA are three movies in a series of movies concerning the character.

Agreed. Cap story happen in five movies not three so it not a trilogy.

 

[The_Manhunter]

BB>>>TFA
TDK>>TWS
CW>TDKR

Edge to Batman. Like them all

1) TDK
2) CW
3) TDKR
4) TWS
5) BB
6) TFA

 

[Chesterfield]

Cap. TWS alone is better than Begins, Rises and most of TDK.

 

[KevanG]

Captain America has the better three. I loved the first one as I enjoy period pieces. WS was kind of meh but alright because I don't like spy movies but Civil War was amazing.

BB was okay for the time but my interest faded as time went on. I freely admit I enjoy TDK quite a bit and Heath was the star of the entire thing. TDKR is garbage. I detest TDKR for the complete BS they force through to make the movie go a certain way where common sense would make people stop the entire thing. The stock exchange and the cops underground are the biggest things that piss me off. There's hundreds of ways that the stock exchange thing should have been impossible to had completed despite the magic fingerprint since in real life there's so many ways things would have to be analyzed, double checked and stopped before anything like that could go though. That and a terrorist attack that obviously made some sort of changes would be checked thoroughly for the changes then reverted to a time before it happened. It's complete idiocy on behalf of every single cop to go in the sewers. A kid could see that.

Cap gets more of a pass for me since they aren't trying to act like it's reality. They realize it's a world with giant green rage monsters, thunder gods and what not so they roll with it. Besides, even though I wasn't crazy about WS, it was still neat since we got the Falcon and got to see SHIELD go down which set up for CW. CW was goddamn fantastic for me. Spider-Man and Ant-Man fighting was great and them actually not doing the whole origin thing for Spider-Man but basically summing up the entire character inside of five minutes was better than what Sony did in fifteen years.

So yeah, #TeamCap

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I'm pretty sure they did nothing Marvel fans also don't do.


Honestly, to me it doesn't really matter who wins. TDK trilogy has the kind of power that CA's can't even touch: I can show these movies to pretty much anybody and they will love them. I can show these movies to someone who doesn't even enjoy the genre and some of them will cry while watching them. It has happened to me several times. I was able to show the movies to my mom, who doesn't like these type of movies, and she loved them.

TDK trilogy is always a great bonding experience to me. It's something that i'm proud to introduce to everybody in my life.

If i wanna have a good time with friends, i show them the trilogy. If i want to impress a girl, i show her the trilogy. Everybody i know loves these freaking movies.

Would i be able to do the same with Captain America? No, i wouldn't. Maybe you guys have opposite experiences, but i wouldn't be able to do the same with Captain America. My mom finds the movies boring and stupid. My friends enjoy them, but most of them agree that they're just mediocre. And the girls, believe it or not, half of them can't seem to be able to enjoy Captain America movies. Just last night i suggested CW to a girl and she absolutely hated it. She usually likes IM movies but she didn't like this. I told her that the movie has 90% on RT and she replied something along these lines: "They must have been drinking".

Now, believe me, the more comic book movies i could share with people, the better. But the reality is that only the TDKT seems to be able to consistently satisfy everyone.

You must just be referring to TDK. While BB and TDKR may be generally well liked I don't think they are any more acclaimed than Marvel's top movies. Not from my experience anyway seeing as we are using anecdotes as evidence.

 

[Erzengel]

So you wouldn't be impressed if someone showed you the trilogy*?


* There's only one trilogy and it's Star Wars. But for the sake of humor, in this case, it's in reference to TDK.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

So you wouldn't be impressed if someone showed you the trilogy*?


* There's only one trilogy and it's Star Wars. But for the sake of humor, in this case, it's in reference to TDK.

Well I personally really like them I was just pointing out that if we are going to use anecdotal evidence I could just as easily say the people I know only seem to rave about TDK and just see TDKR and BB as standard good quality cbms (although I do know quite a few people who aren't impressed with them either).

 

[BatLobster]

This is incredibly faulty logic. So does that mean there is no more "original trilogy" for Star Wars? By your standards, you can make "all sorts of trilogies" out of the Star Wars movies. You can start at Revenge of the Sith, go into Rogue One, and then A New Hope.

That's a fair point, although I think even after the prequels it did start to change the whole dynamic and you had people coming up with various viewing orders, etc. I've heard people call ROTS-ANH-Empire the best "trilogy" in the saga too. This will probably only continue with time as they add more movies into the canon.

Obviously this doesn't mean there's no more original Star Wars Trilogy though. Especially for people that grew up with those as the only Star Wars movies, for many those will always be the original trilogy and you can still view it as its own thing. It will always work as a self-contained set of films, because it's the foundation that everything else was built upon. That's the big difference to me. The Cap and Iron Man trilogies are both very dependent on other films for their narratives to even make sense. Plus, there very well could be fourth movies in both cases.

Trilogies are more old fashioned these days. The TDKT is decidedly old fashioned in its approach, while the MCU is in uncharted territory. Rather than pitting them against each other, I'd rather celebrate each of them for what they are. But if we're talking about trilogies, TDKT has the home court advantage IMO. And it's obvious, because it seems like each time a comic book trilogy is completed now it's immediately the thing that people try to compare it to. That alone says something.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I wouldn't swap The Dark Knight for Marvel's entire combined output, so the Batman trilogy.

yup.

 

[BoredGuy]

now that I've had the chance to let CW sink into my mind for a while, I'd have to say that on quality levels- not comparing them chronologically- I think TDKR is closest to TFA (bottom tier), TDK to TWS (Top Tier), and BB to CW (Middle-but-still-nearly-top tier)

then I'd have to say:
Bottom- TFA beats Rises
Middle- Civil War easily bests Begins
Top- TDK edges out TWS

so yeah, stickin with Cap

 

[Lantern Venom]

Civil War is the only movie with Iron Man in it. So Captain America's movies for me.

- 3 gold stars for honesty.

 

[Matt]

I gave it to Cap as I feel like TDKR is just a mess. None of the Cap movies come even close to that. They are all solid outings. That said, I'm not sure you can count the Captain America movies as a trilogy. FA and TWS are certainly a continuous plot, but Civil War is more Avengers 2.5 than Captain America 3. In fact, The Avengers complicates things as a whole. We don't really get to see a natural continuation of Cap's journey from 1940s soldier to modern hero in TWS because he has already adapted to the modern would in TWS. The Avengers kind of carries that narrative load (although it is glossed over as a whole). My point is, its hard to compare the Marvel movies to a self-contained trilogy. They are two very different narrative structures.

 

[BatLobster]

I gave it to Cap as I feel like TDKR is just a mess. None of the Cap movies come even close to that. They are all solid outings. That said, I'm not sure you can count the Captain America movies as a trilogy. FA and TWS are certainly a continuous plot, but Civil War is more Avengers 2.5 than Captain America 3. In fact, The Avengers complicates things as a whole. We don't really get to see a natural continuation of Cap's journey from 1940s soldier to modern hero in TWS because he has already adapted to the modern would in TWS. The Avengers kind of carries that narrative load (although it is glossed over as a whole). My point is, its hard to compare the Marvel movies to a self-contained trilogy. They are two very different narrative structures.

Glad to see someone who favors the Cap movies is willing to acknowledge this.

 

[Thegeekfreax]

Captain America

 

[batfreakforever]

Time and time again Captain America isn't a trilogy.

 

[Casius--J]

I would choose Cap. I actually really loved TFA, I thought it was the right way to go to introduce the character.

Whilst I do love BB and TDK, I was so disappointed by TDKR and couldn't see myself going back to watch that anytime soon. Where as I would be more than happy to watch any of the Cap films again.

 

[Mjölnir]

People should focus less on the semantics of what constitutes a trilogy and pay more attention to the obvious intent behind the question, which is what the thread is about.

That said there are trilogies where the included movies have nothing in common whatsoever apart from a theme, so what constitutes a trilogy is a very loose thing. It's by no means just a set of three movies that carries out one story.

 

[BatLobster]

If this is what the thread is about, then here you go: TDK>TDKR>CW=BB>TWS>TFA

I don't consider it semantics to talk about what a trilogy is or should be though. To me a trilogy is all about the relationship between three films, how they recontextualize one another and create a larger whole. Whether that's a thematic trilogy or a more traditional trilogy- to me that's the measuring stick because otherwise why group the films together?

I personally am not able to engage with the Cap films like that, because the larger whole they are a part of is the MCU and that larger story is what informs the context of those films the most. I don't see it as a black and white, "it's a trilogy or it's not a trilogy" thing, but I do think some trilogies are more purely trilogies than others. There's a spectrum.

Tbh I think that's a more interesting discussion than simply just stating my subjective preference for one set of films over another. It's interesting to me because again, what Marvel has done is unprecedented in film history so I think it defies comparison in a sense.

 

[Travesty]

It doesn't matter if you consider it semantics or not, it is semantics. Some of you(not you in particular, Batlobster) are trying to redefine what the term means, in order to bolster up your opinion. There's no problem with liking one trilogy over the other, but some of the stuff I'm reading in here is crazy. Every time I see someone say the Cap movies aren't a trilogy, I wanna know where their definition of "trilogy" is coming from.

 

[Erzengel]

I'll fully admit that the MCU plays out like an extended comic book which is unprecedented.

I just chose which 3 movies I thought were better, since as of now the Captain America series not necessarily the character is done according to Marvel.

And I said this in another thread, even if TDK is at the top of the CBM list, I can't put either BB or TDKR over TWS and CW. If you even want to argue that BB is better than TFA, TDKR is the low spot and I couldn't put that over any Captain America movie, personally.

 

[DeGenerate10]

1. The Dark Knight
2. The Winter Solider
3. Batman Begins
4. Civil War
5. The Dark Knight Rises
6. The First Avenger

Batman.

 

[BatLobster]

It doesn't matter if you consider it semantics or not, it is semantics. Some of you(not you in particular, Batlobster) are trying to redefine what the term means, in order to bolster up your opinion. There's no problem with liking one trilogy over the other, but some of the stuff I'm reading in here is crazy. Every time I see someone say the Cap movies aren't a trilogy, I wanna know where their definition of "trilogy" is coming from.

I guess by definition it is semantics, but that word is usually used as a way of saying you're splitting hairs and derailing the conversation. IMO, the trilogy thing is more at the heart of the conversation and that's the case I've been trying to make. I'm not trying to redefine "my" definition of a trilogy. Here it is straight from wiki:

A trilogy (from Greek τρι- tri-, "three" and -λογία -logia, "discourse") is a set of three works of art that are connected, and that can be seen either as a single work or as three individual works. They are commonly found in literature, film, or video games.

That first part, "can be seen as a single work", is key here.

Some are fine with just looking at it as two groups of three films, comparing individually and leaving at that- and that's totally fine. I'm just stating the case at to why I think some trilogies are better representations of that storytelling form than others. Take say...the Austin Powers trilogy and compare it to Godfather/BTTF/Star Wars. If you can honestly say that Austin Powers is just as much of a trilogy (and I don't mean quality-wise in terms of the individual films) then I guess we'll never find any common ground here.

And what about Casino Royale/Quantum of Solace/Skyfall? Is that a trilogy too?