Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[Mjölnir]

I prefer the Cap trilogy.

Three pretty different films that work well together and the latter two are great to me, and the first is good.

With the TDKT I think Begins is great, but TDK doesn't have writing that works with the tone they went for imo, and TDKR was a step down from that.

 

[LvtLeeTDK]

As for pure quality, TDK is better than Begins but as a Batman film, Batman Begins is the best. The Production Design, the fight scenes, the Batman's voice, the villians, the arcs,... everthing's just perfect.

And since Begins was released in the dark days of CBM => It didn't get enough recognition. I'm sure if it was release in 2008 and The Dark Knight was released in 2010s, this Trilogy would be much more appreciated.

The only MV film better than Begins for me is SpiderMan 2. Begins is slightly better than TWS and much better than Civil War.

 

[Awest66]

Have to give it to Cap. Rises was just a fundamentally flawed, lazy movie that disappointed on practically every level.

And yet it still has almost the exact same critical scores as the Russo Captain America movies, Wonder why?

 

[Awest66]

The Dark Knight Trilogy, no contest.

As great as the Russo movies are, The First Avenger is way below all three of Nolan's movies.

 

[Erzengel]

And yet it still has almost the exact same critical scores as the Russo Captain America movies, Wonder why?

Wasn't aware of this but someone brought it up in another thread when discussing the comic book movies that have a score of 8 or higher. I'd like to look into it but I think a number of the negative reviews for TDKR weren't incorporated into it's critical score because the reviews had no actual score but were still counted as rotten so TDKR probably should have been in the 7s.

 

[Awest66]

Wasn't aware of this but someone brought it up in another thread when discussing the comic book movies that have a score of 8 or higher. I'd like to look into it but I think a number of the negative reviews for TDKR weren't incorporated into it's critical score because the reviews had no actual score but were still counted as rotten so TDKR probably should have been in the 7s.

I don't agree with that at all. If The First Avenger could get into the 8s, TDKR should be considerably higher.

 

[Erzengel]

From the Black Panther Rotten Tomatoes Thread

The Dark Knight Rises is a bit misleading in that regard. Most of the rotten reviews it got did not give a rating so they didn't weigh the average rating down.

13.33% of TDKR's reviews are rotten, but only 7.22% of the reviews that gave a rating are rotten.

If that's true, then 6.11% of the reviews aren't knocking down their critical score.

Unless you are talking about just RT rating, then that is unchanged.

 

[Awest66]

From the Black Panther Rotten Tomatoes Thread



If that's true, then 6.11% of the reviews aren't knocking down their critical score.

Unless you are talking about just RT rating, then that is unchanged.

That's rather odd.

 

[psylockolussus]

TDK bores me. So Captain America.

 

[Deck Rickard]

As someone else mentioned earlier, the only thing the Cap trilogy has over TDKT is the action scenes. And even then, that's only in the realm of hand to hand combat. Nolan's vehicle chases were nothing to scoff at.

You clearly missed all the slow punches thrown by the Batmobile.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

this is tough.

I adore Begins, love TDK but have always been lukewarm at best on Rises. First Avenger I always really liked, Winter Soldier was cool and Civil War gave us MCU Spider-Man. Hmmmmmmmm..... not sure really.

I'll say the dark knight trilogy just because I love Begins so much.

 

[DACrowe]

And yet it still has almost the exact same critical scores as the Russo Captain America movies, Wonder why?

I would argue it is better than them. But suffice to say, even if you disagree, its level of ambition and artistry in craft and performance is rare amongst superhero movies (only really topped in a certain sense by TDK and Logan in this regard). It is also a layered and complex movie that really challenges the hero in ways that I think is turnoff to many fans, but again makes Rises bold, unique, and daring if that is what you are looking for.

Also even if Rises is "fundamentally flawed," I wouldn't say it is anymore so than The First Avenger. Actually fundamentally less so, in my opinion.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would argue it is better than them. But suffice to say, even if you disagree, its level of ambition and artistry in craft and performance is rare amongst superhero movies (only really topped in a certain sense by TDK and Logan in this regard). It is also a layered and complex movie that really challenges the hero in ways that I think is turnoff to many fans, but again makes Rises bold, unique, and daring if that is what you are looking for.

Also even if Rises is "fundamentally flawed," I wouldn't say it is anymore so than The First Avenger. Actually fundamentally less so, in my opinion.

TDKR for me is not flawed because it challenges you. TDK challenges you more, and that film is amazing. It all comes down to the story direction in TDKR feeling lazy to me. Ultimately, Bruce needing to become Batman again to face the League of Shadows from using a Wayne-Tech weapon from destroying the city felt more like a Ghostbusters II type sequel as opposed to The Empire Strikes Back. It just felt like an inferior rehash.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I do agree that aspects of TDKR are lazy. I don't really mind the Wayne Tech and League of Shadows stuff. But the whole thing with the cops in the sewers is just stupid as hell. You're telling me that EVERY cop in the city except for Blake and like two other people went down there, and then somehow couldn't find a way out for MONTHS (do they not have manholes in Gotham?), and THEN when they finally do get out, they're all apparently showered and clean shaven?

Seriously, what was Nolan thinking with that?

 

[Awest66]

I do agree that aspects of TDKR are lazy. I don't really mind the Wayne Tech and League of Shadows stuff. But the whole thing with the cops in the sewers is just stupid as hell. You're telling me that EVERY cop in the city except for Blake and like two other people went down there, and then somehow couldn't find a way out for MONTHS (do they not have manholes in Gotham?), and THEN when they finally do get out, they're all apparently showered and clean shaven?

Seriously, what was Nolan thinking with that?

That's not actually what happened. A fair amount of the cops remained top side as the resistance to Bane's rule, It wasn't just Gordon, Blake and Foley.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I do agree that aspects of TDKR are lazy. I don't really mind the Wayne Tech and League of Shadows stuff. But the whole thing with the cops in the sewers is just stupid as hell. You're telling me that EVERY cop in the city except for Blake and like two other people went down there, and then somehow couldn't find a way out for MONTHS (do they not have manholes in Gotham?), and THEN when they finally do get out, they're all apparently showered and clean shaven?

Seriously, what was Nolan thinking with that?

In certain areas of the structure and production, he took his eye off the ball on TDKR.

 

[DACrowe]

TDKR for me is not flawed because it challenges you. TDK challenges you more, and that film is amazing. It all comes down to the story direction in TDKR feeling lazy to me. Ultimately, Bruce needing to become Batman again to face the League of Shadows from using a Wayne-Tech weapon from destroying the city felt more like a Ghostbusters II type sequel as opposed to The Empire Strikes Back. It just felt like an inferior rehash.

I prefer it to Batman Begins, so I disagree it feels like an inferior rehash. While neither "plan" by the villain seems all that plausible (whereas the Joker's goal of just seeding chaos felt disturbingly true), the emphasis on military destabilization and kangaroo court mob rage was really intriguing and more reflective of society than only a doomsday machine (though both movies had that). We have since seen, if not destabilization, certainly populists use the fury of a mob to upend cultural norms and "order."

I wasn't saying that the ambition or challenging nature was the flaw. Merely that its ambition to me is a virtue that overcomes what I, and apparently critics, saw as smaller problems in terms of pacing in the third act, and jarring time jumps, etc.

When I say some of its "challenge" is a turnoff, I was more referring to how the film suggests Bruce Wayne must outgrow being Batman, and that it is about him letting go of his pain and need for Batman, and coming to the conclusion to save Gotham and himself, he needs to move on. This is the antithesis of the "mission never ends" conceit of the character in the comics and is pretty much a challenge to how fans view superheroes as characters. I think, intentionally or not, this rubs a lot of fans the wrong way. Hence the, "My Batman would never quit" critique. I find it one of the movie's strongest elements, however.

 

[Awest66]

When I say some of its "challenge" is a turnoff, I was more referring to how the film suggests Bruce Wayne must outgrow being Batman, and that it is about him letting go of his pain and need for Batman, and coming to the conclusion to save Gotham and himself, he needs to move on. This is the antithesis of the "mission never ends" conceit of the character in the comics and is pretty much a challenge to how fans view superheroes as characters. I think, intentionally or not, this rubs a lot of fans the wrong way. Hence the, "My Batman would never quit" critique. I find it one of the movie's strongest elements, however.

As I've said before, I think that is the main reason for TDKR being divisive amongst the fanbase. They wanted another one-off adventure that would begin and end with Bruce accepting that being Batman is something he'll have to do for the rest of his life.

If the First Avenger doesn't disqualify Cap from having a great "trilogy" the same should apply for TDK.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It not being a one-off has little to do with why I didn't like it. The fact it was a conclusion and true end story made me MORE excited to see it. The poor script and story laziness are what I hated.

 

[Awest66]

The poor script and story laziness are what I hated.

I really don't see how the script was any more "poor" or "lazy" than any film in the MCU.

An argument can most certainly be made about the Russo movies being better but Rises being worse than the First Avenger? absolutely not.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I really don't see how the script was any more "poor" or "lazy" than any film in the MCU.

An argument can most certainly be made about the Russo movies being better but Rises being worse than the First Avenger? absolutely not.

I am not beating this dead horse again, but I see TDKR as an inferior rehash of BB. It is the same core plot, only placed as a sequel instead of a first story like Ghostbusters II sort of does. The movie really falls apart when the villain becomes Talia (and she is not the only plot element that didn't work for me...there are other subplots I felt were wasted as well). I 100% think TFA is a better film. No contest. For me, the story just isn't there with TDKR.

But again, I don't want to beat this dead horse again. My thoughts on this are well documented in this thread and many others.

 

[Awest66]

I see TDKR as an inferior rehash of BB.

Because of bringing back the Leage of Shadows and the Wayne Enterprises device as a weapon? I really don't see that as any more of a "rehash" than Star Wars bringing back the Death Star twice or hell, Winter Soldier bringing back HYDRA in the sequel or Civil War making Cap a fugitive again.

As DAcrowe said, The way the doomsday machine is used is substantially different from how the microwave emitter was in Begins.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Because of bringing back the Leage of Shadows and the Wayne Enterprises device as a weapon? I really don't see that as any more of a "rehash" than Star Wars bringing back the Death Star twice or hell, Winter Soldier bringing back HYDRA in the sequel or Civil War making Cap a fugitive again.

As DAcrowe said, The way the doomsday machine is used is substantially different from how the microwave emitter was in Begins.

No, it's pretty much the same. Use the weapon to create mass fear in Gotham and ultimately destroy the city. It's the same plot, and even devolves into a beat the clock chase the weapon finale. Just like BB.

 

[Awest66]

No, it's pretty much the same. Use the weapon to create mass fear in Gotham and ultimately destroy the city. It's the same plot, and even devolves into a beat the clock chase the weapon finale. Just like BB.

I honestly don't really see how that's a problem, I mean Age of Ultron also had the Avengers smashing apart an army of disposable drones while trying to stop a doomsday device.

A lot of films when they run for long usually end up repeating certain elements or story beats, as long as a unique spin is put on them to differentiate them in a small way.

 

[Spider-Fan]

My problen with TDKR is it felt the samr. AoU it felt different to me