Bought/Thought Dec 26th (Spoilers within)

[Dread]

Oh, I didn't read your rant. I saw everyone raving about Darthphere's, so I went back and read his. I've found that trying to catch up with Bought/Thought threads if you haven't been visiting them frequently from the moment they're created is much like trying to wrestle a raging bull to the ground with your bare hands; it sounds fun in theory, but it's pretty likely to kill you in practice.

My rant is the first post on Page 7, after reviewing BLUE BEETLE #22, which was good.

You would think that Joe Q would've learned from his competition about what happens when you mess around with continuity in order to make things simple, especially when he himself apparently has been critical of them for doing exactly that. Likewise, you would think that he would've learned the last time Marvel tried to "fix" the marriage "problem" by invalidating the past 20 years worth of comics, a.k.a the Clone Saga, and how THAT particular move nearly killed Spider-Man comics (and in some cases never has fully recovered from), especially since one of the former EIC at the time, Tom Deflaco, still works at Marvel doing Spider-Girl.

And yet, despite evidence to the contrary, he lets this happen. That's because, contrary to all of his notion about "Spider-Man being married makes him unrelatable to the target audience" BS, it's really about two things:

1. Not wanting to deal with continuity, because he and some of the writers on staff openly hate having to deal with it. Let's face it, continuity is a form of research, and nobody, writers included, like doing research. And

2. A warped sense of nostalgia, in that what these guys REALLY want to do is to tell--or in some cases retell--the same kind of Spider-Man stories that Stan Lee wrote back in the 1960s, or whenever they first read them as a kid. Or rather, the kind of stories they would've written had they been in Stan Lee shoes because, while they appreciate Stan Lee for giving them a career, they still feel they can do a much better job than he could because they are "professional writers" who are far more "educated" and consider Stan Lee a "glorified hack." Heck, as you well know Dread, that's practically what Ultimate Spider-Man is in a nutshell. But since that fad is gradually becoming old news, might as well apply to the "real" Spider-Man and not some flashy offshoot.

Plus, Marvel (and Mackie) already went about ending the marriage, at least in "real time" via a seperation (no divorce), by 2000 or so, before JMS started in 2001. Then the movie came about and I wouldn't be surprised if JMS was "hinted" to get them together sooner. But he didn't take more than 2 years to do so. And then we had Joe Q claiming it was a horrible 20 year experiment, that was almost erased when he sat down as EIC and that was allowed to continue ON HIS WATCH. The man simply cannot make up his mind about anything, and it usually ends up for the worse.

Paul O'Brien, on his X-Axis website, got into OMD a bit:

Incidentally, much the same point could be made about "One More Day." The premise - Mephisto rewrites history to separate Spider-Man and Mary Jane - is just fine, as the opening of a story where they overcome the odds and are brought together again despite everything in their path. But Quesada is going out of his way to indicate that that's not the plan; it's just another magic wand to reverse continuity. That doesn't work, for exactly the same reasons. For that matter, the same error of reasoning led to the Spider-Clone saga, in which an utterly ludicrous device was adopted in order to unwind continuity, in the woefully optimistic belief that the story could then move on with this new status quo. Nobody learns.

Or maybe they do. It's entirely possible that Quesada is bluffing about "One More Day" being permanent, and that Marvel intentionally delayed for a year on delivering the follow-up to M-Day for the same reasons. But in both cases, that would be a foolish strategy. If people assumed "One More Day" was a long-term storyline, rather than a permanent change, they'd probably like it a lot more. Why go out of your way to give the impression that you don't have a clue? I confess to wondering whether Quesada actually knows the difference between a good beginning and a good end.

He was comparing OMD to the first year and a half after M-Day, which was completely botched.

I like doing research. I imagine there are a lot of people who like doing research, as well. A lot of them call themselves researchers or historians, but a fair number of them also call themselves writers. Since, y'know, most writers realize that a huge chunk of their job is research, with the actual writing only coming after the research is done.

The editors certainly don't seem to do it. You have to depend on the writer caring to. Some do, some don't, some think they are above that sort of thing.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That O'Brien dude clearly hasn't figured out that Quesada is from the "controversy is king" school of thought. I think Joe Q gets updates from someone at Marvel about how Newsarama posters are taking various stories as they come out and thinks, "If we're pissing off the internet fanboys, we must be doing something right!"

 

[Dread]

That O'Brien dude clearly hasn't figured out that Quesada is from the "controversy is king" school of thought. I think Joe Q gets updates from someone at Marvel about how Newsarama posters are taking various stories as they come out and thinks, "If we're pissing off the internet fanboys, we must be doing something right!"

O'Brien believes that Joe Q is some sort of professional. I see him as the kid who found Bill Jema's Golden Ticket and outlasted Liefield, Mackie, DeFlaco, and a confused Erik Larson in the Bullpen and came out with the EIC by 2000. From there, decisions are based on misguided nostalgia, ignorance, monkeys, notepads, and darts. At this point I wonder how much of the great stuff that came out of 2007 really is worth creditting him to, as in how much influence did he have in 'em? Approving them to be done by others is one thing; but direct influence, like OMD, is another.

But, yes, Joe Q works by the "Piss-O-Meter"; if something angers fans, he believes it is good. Sales often have backed this, but this may change as both he and DiDio are starting to ware out their welcomes. Wouldn't be nice to have an EIC who operated on different logic than an attention-starved grade school kid?

 

[Shockdingo]

I really can't add anymore to what Dread and Darthphere added (real good posts guys) By these changes it just screws things around so much I don't even know if history of Spidey can even be freakin' fixed. This is ridiculous.

 

[silversurfur65]

After finishing SM OMD, I'm convinced Joe Q. is really a Skrull !!

......and please just let Aunt May die already for the 20th time but let her stay dead....Pete can just have her stuffed and put in a corner with a spatula in hand like she is making him some tasty "wheat cakes" and life can go on.(isn't she like 100 yrs old by now...her time is due whether by sniper bullet or natural causes sheesh !! )

 

[stillanerd]

Plus, Marvel (and Mackie) already went about ending the marriage, at least in "real time" via a seperation (no divorce), by 2000 or so, before JMS started in 2001. Then the movie came about and I wouldn't be surprised if JMS was "hinted" to get them together sooner. But he didn't take more than 2 years to do so. And then we had Joe Q claiming it was a horrible 20 year experiment, that was almost erased when he sat down as EIC and that was allowed to continue ON HIS WATCH. The man simply cannot make up his mind about anything, and it usually ends up for the worse.

Like his infamous "dead means dead" statement. And yes, I have no doubt that wanting movie goers to pick up the comics was why MJ was brought back, just like how organic webshooters were introduced, which--surprise, surprise--Joe Q doesn't believe are right for the character even though he approved of them. Of course, he's apparently on record as far back as 2000 in saying that the "spidey marriage" was the worst thing that ever happened to Spider-Man, I believe. For Joe Q, the "Spider-Marriage" is practically his "Moby Dick."

Paul O'Brien, on his X-Axis website, got into OMD a bit:


He was comparing OMD to the first year and a half after M-Day, which was completely botched.

And he's right about both, IMO. Even though "No More Mutants" pretty much made mutants on the brink of extinction, the X-Men titles still acted as though the whole "X-Men save the world from evil mutants and show humans they are not all bad in the process" wasn't effected at all. At least now, with Messiah Complex, you have a story that's finally dealing with the repercussions of it, and it actually turns out to be one of the best X-Men crossovers in years.

I like doing research. I imagine there are a lot of people who like doing research, as well. A lot of them call themselves researchers or historians, but a fair number of them also call themselves writers. Since, y'know, most writers realize that a huge chunk of their job is research, with the actual writing only coming after the research is done.

Well, there are exceptions of course, and I certainly don't mind research myself. I'll amend it and say the vast majority of people, including some writers--especially comic book writers--would rather not do research if they can help it.

 

[Spade]

Phere's post is the best rant this site has ever produced. They should probably shut it down, as it's never going to produce anything that great ever again.

As for my thoughts on it...I lived through the Clone Saga. I grew up with Romita Jr. drawing Spider-Man. I was accosted by some of the best and worst the Spidey writers had to offer. This...this abortion of a story is- by no exaggeration on my part- the worst idea they've ever implemented in a Spidey story. This is the sort of brainfart that isn't supposed to make it past a joke during one of these circle-jer- I mean, "creative discussions."

I've been really silent on this matter, reading other people's opinions and just trying to think to myself "well, they'll retcon it." But right now, that really doesn't matter. What matters is that Marvel just screwed itself in more ways than one. Not only has it left a great creative team out on a limb by making them follow up on one of the worst Marvel stories ever, but they've also lost all credibility in any retcon debate that can spring up in the forseeable future. The debates themselves are usually stupid to begin with, but to think that they've actually found a way to top the inherent stupidity in an alternate Superboy retcon-punching the universe is mind-boggling. It's like they've specifically engineered this story to be so horrible that it makes you forget about DC's many bad decisions.

I just don't see the excellent story opportunities that they keep on claiming will spring out of this. The mechanical webshooters are back because they realized they've been consistently pissing off people by getting rid of them...so they solve it in the biggest eff-you to the fans possible? That's just faulty logic. You stop yourself from screwing around with the character by forcing him into neverending life-changing arcs and you don't have issues like what the organic webshooters created to begin with! You don't need a college education to understand this! Joe Quesada has truly earned his nickname of "Joephisto" with this one. He's pretty much proven that every time you want something marginally better in the books you're going to have to brace yourself for more stupidity than is humanly possible to endure in the process.

I would write more...but I'm done. Burned out. I would just be repeating the same thing so many others have in their own rants, if I haven't already. It just saddens me to see that the most absurd of the fan guesses on the ending to One More Day actually proved itself to be true. I can only hope that, when the inevitable happens and they realize that not even a great creative team can save them from the total f**king destruction this will bring upon their heads, they think about how many readers they've lost over this asinine attempt to use Bold Old Day as the platform for more Silver Age shenanigans.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I just watched Spider-Man 2 with my girl last night, and now I'm even MORE upset with OMD. Sigh.

Btw, I really should learn to write more. I had the first rant and no one noticed but PJ.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope everyone who's so outraged by OMD isn't planning to buy BND. Vote with your wallets, people.

 

[Darthphere]

Phere's post is the best rant this site has ever produced. They should probably shut it down, as it's never going to produce anything that great ever again.

Eh, it wasn't that good.

I just watched Spider-Man 2 with my girl last night, and now I'm even MORE upset with OMD. Sigh.

Btw, I really should learn to write more. I had the first rant and no one noticed but PJ.

But Spider-Man 2 sucks.

I hope everyone who's so outraged by OMD isn't planning to buy BND. Vote with your wallets, people.

I know I'm not.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Excellent.

 

[Darthphere]

I'm downloading it.

 

[Red]

I hope everyone who's so outraged by OMD isn't planning to buy BND. Vote with your wallets, people.

I did plan to for Slott but not anymore.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm downloading it.

Even better.

 

[iloveclones]

I'm not saying this to poke anyone, but I always believe that talent and quality wins out. Just like with Cap and Bucky. There was a lot of buzz that was going to happen, and a lot of people entrenched that they would never buy it on principle alone. I've seen a lot of them come around (I think Dread was one of them, I forget) I don't think it matters how upset anyone is right now, if quality Spidey spidey stories are being written, people will come back. If they're not quality, sales will drop (like they would have anyway), and then the whole thing will probably be retconned (through the magical MJ/Mephisto whisper)

Boycotts may make you self-satisfied but they rarely work. I decided 20 years ago that I wouldn't buy gas from Exxon ever again because they wouldn't take responsibilty for the Valdez incident. Many a time I almost ran out of gas because they were the only game in town. Well, 20 years later, and I still drive by Exxons, but they're still there. The truth is, nobody really cares. And outside of forums like these, nobody cares. If rants, and petitions, and boycotts do it for you, more power to you. Me, I'll just sit back and see what Slott, et al, are going to come up with. (Although does anyone else appreciate the irony that the guy who we consider to be the Master of Marvel continuity, has been given more of a blank slate instead? Wouldn't it have been more satisfying if they had given Mr. Slott this task, and see if he could write his way out of it, without all of the magical mumbo-jumbo?)

 

[Doc Destruction]

I hope everyone who's so outraged by OMD isn't planning to buy BND. Vote with your wallets, people.

Not gonna happen. I already apologized to Dan, too...but I'll still get his Initiative.

 

[Anubis]

Has anybody poked their heads into the Spider-Man boards? I'm almost afraid t look.

 

[iloveclones]

I'm part of an OMD thread. It isn't pretty.

 

[Doc Destruction]

How could it be? Yeah, I'm blowing up in there, too.

 

[iloveclones]

It's all part of the fun, I guess.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Oh yeah...fun. Like getting slapped around for 2 years fun.

 

[iloveclones]

Whatever floats your boat....

 

[Red]

For Joe Q, the "Spider-Marriage" is practically his "Moby Dick."

 

[Spade]

But Spider-Man 2 sucks.

Yay! Someone else thinks that the movie is flawed!

And yeah, I'm not buying Bold Old Day. That's like walking down an alleyway where a known rapist is said to be active.

 

[RockSP]

It's not many times I comment on something I haven't read. Ok, that's a lie. But in this case, I am forced, nay, compelled to comment. In my heart, I know that it is not necessary for me to read, nor do I have any morbid curiosity to look at the ending of One More Day. I have plenty of negative things in my life to bring something in that has for at least one day, tarnished a medium I love and enjoy.(I guess RockSP would think that's weird.)