Bought/Thought June 25th, 2008

[Blader5489]

Mark Millar.

**** he can't even blame Hollywood, dude's just a *****e.

Damon Lindelof.

But nice try, though.

 

[Dread]

By the way Dread, I know you're not reading it anymore, but in the issue before last of USM, Spidey got kidnapped by the Shocker, and...you might need to sit down for this... gets his mask taken off! When I saw that, my first thought was, "Man, I wish Dread were still reading..."

I'm glad I'm not.

(Actually, I flipped through some issue of that arc in the stands for giggles and naturally knew Spidey got kidnapped and unmasked. I noted mentally how "original" and "uncommon" that is for USM. ).

Seriously, I can't imagine who is still on that book who hasn't noticed Bendis circling the drain for well over a year now. Guess that is why many readers bailed with Bagley.

Have you ever noticed that I only ever respond to your Whedon rants when you start spouting straight-up bull****? Well, just take my word for it, then.

I didn't especially care to detect patterns. I usually just presume you disagree with any opinion of mine and when we do agree, it must be very important.

Essentially, we are posters who are destined to not get along. You're a staunch Whedon supporter and I usually feel he is overrated and never got the point of his hype. You go out of your way to praise him for the slightest drivel, and I likely go overboard with criticizing him due to his A-List status. Oil and water territory here.

All of this is entirely invalidated by one simple, single fact: Whedon turned in all his scripts on time. He did his job, and by no stretch of "professionalism" was he ever required to do anything more than that. It is not his job to light matches under the asses of his artists (though I can't imagine how you've managed to ascertain that he didn't do that).

As one half of a creative team, he just as responsible for a late product as the other half. That is simply how life works, and the fact that comic books are such a cottage industry allows it to pretend certain rules of life and business do not apply to it have done the industry no favors.

Regardless if Whedon is EARLY with his scripts or not, he is 0-2 for timely Marvel collaborations. Not only is anything he does for Marvel tardy, it is glaringly so. Is he the worst of the Marvel Hollywood Slacker list? No. The reality is that when I see Whedon's name next to a Marvel comic, I automatically will think, "this will be later than ****", and I will be right. Certain writers have a "knack" for picking the slowest artists in creation to work with. Mark Millar is often another.

In real life, if you are partners with someone and your product is late, you take just as much of the fall. Period. The only people who believe differently are, apparently, comic book editors and Hollywood.

It is not his job to enforce Marvel's tardiness policies. You group him with Heinberg, Smith, and whichever cumbucket was responsible for Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk, which simply makes no sense even by the standards that you're utilizing because they did not turn in timely scripts. You are quite literally reaching for an excuse to bash Whedon here.

I have admitted being harsher on him before. It likely stems from the fact that, as an A-Lister, he has fans like you who swoon over his most basic drivel. You can't bare to grade him below a 7.0 out of 10.0. There's no way his RUNAWAYS run is above a 6.5 out of 10 if I graded like that.

He picked late artists when he should have known better? Fine, you could argue that. He kept on using those artists when they were late? Fine, I'm not entirely sure when he became a Marvel editor, but okay that's arguable too.

And I have argued that. He is WHEDON. Every single person at Marvel licks his feet. BUFFY and ANGEL were the greatest TV shows ever produced, don'tchaknow? Any artist he works with has to be approved. And I bet timely schedules weren't even a factor in those decisions. I'm sure it isn't out of malice or anything. He just thinks his stories are worth the wait. And maybe they are. But not THIS much of a wait.

Cassaday was well known for tardy art years before AXM. Ryan couldn't handle more than 3 issues of EXCALIBUR before needing fill-in's. Considering Whedon's almighty skill, couldn't he have figured out a tactic that a mere mortal like Brubaker & Fraction did for CAPTAIN AMERICA and IMMORTAL IRON FIST? Bring in a different artist for the time travel issues or flashbacks, so Ryan wouldn't have had to do more than 1-2 whole issues straight? I mean, I should expect greatness from HIS GREATNESS, right?

The price of being A-List talent is that one expects A-List results. That is reality. That is also part of why I am especially harder on types like, say, Millar and Bendis than, say, Grevioux. And to say that is unfair is to simply deny a key part of life. Whedon, in his Marvel work, has not produced A-List results on an A-List schedule. His comics, regardless of fault, have come out slow enough to shame an indie.

But he is not a late writer, which comprise the vast majority of your rantings here. Not only are you trying to hold him entirely responsible for the tardiness of his stories, you've also managed to implicate that he does so out of his rampant Hollywood egoism which you know all about because, I dunno, magic or whatever. Like I said, straight-up bull****.

So, I should tear Ryan to pieces and give Whedon a pass, right? Golly, what a novel idea from you!

What was I thinking? Poor Whedon was forced at gunpoint to team with two artists in a row and then do absolutely nothing professionally to speed up the process or make reparations to his readers! Isn't it great that we live in a world where there is always a finger to be pointed to escape blame for collective failures?

I've no doubt that lateness is a huge problem in the industry. I'm not happy about it either. I also place the venting where it belongs.

From every review of yours I have read, you haven't cared one whit about waiting 4+ years for a 25 issue story in AXM, or 14 months for a 6 issue arc in RUNAWAYS.

Or do you also blame Cheung for the fact that we don't have new Young Avengers issues yet?

He's slow as hell, too. He's like Ryan; asking more than 2 timely issues from him is like asking for Micheal Jackson to be black again. In a few posts I recommended either replacing him or having a ready artist to fill in for him for a Volume 2. But the reality is unlike Heinberg, who was a slowpoke on WONDER WOMAN and has done nada, not even co-plot, extra issues of YA, Cheung at least has been working. He's slow, but at least he draw an ILLUMINATI series written by Bendis & Reed. He's drawn a few issues of NEW AVENGERS and MIGHTY AVENGERS. And lord knows how many covers. I agree, he's a slowpoke, but at least he is available to work. Heinberg can't even scribble an outline on a cocktail napkin and mail it to Joe Q postage due.

Incidentally, in the interest of correction, all arc-formatted issues of Buffy have been drawn by the same artist: Georges Jeanty. It's only the standalone issues which have used different artists, probably because they're standalones. No one has been "switched out" or something.

So Whedon was able to find a far faster artist for BUFFY? I guess we do wear out hearts on our sleeve. I bet if BUFFY was running half a year behind on an issue, Whedon would not take it as lightly as he has with AXM and RUNAWAYS.

I'll admit to being overly harsh on Whedon if you'll admit to being easily pleased.

 

[gildea]

By the way Dread, I know you're not reading it anymore, but in the issue before last of USM, Spidey got kidnapped by the Shocker, and...you might need to sit down for this... gets his mask taken off! When I saw that, my first thought was, "Man, I wish Dread were still reading..."

Dread may have complained about the mask but I think he would have recognised that it was an excellent issue and the unmasking was crucial to the story.

seriously that is out of context its practicaly political.

 

[BrianWilly]

As one half of a creative team, he just as responsible for a late product as the other half. That is simply how life works, and the fact that comic books are such a cottage industry allows it to pretend certain rules of life and business do not apply to it have done the industry no favors.

Regardless if Whedon is EARLY with his scripts or not, he is 0-2 for timely Marvel collaborations. Not only is anything he does for Marvel tardy, it is glaringly so. Is he the worst of the Marvel Hollywood Slacker list? No. The reality is that when I see Whedon's name next to a Marvel comic, I automatically will think, "this will be later than ****", and I will be right. Certain writers have a "knack" for picking the slowest artists in creation to work with. Mark Millar is often another.

In real life, if you are partners with someone and your product is late, you take just as much of the fall. Period. The only people who believe differently are, apparently, comic book editors and Hollywood.

By "take the fall," do you mean actually mean "be accused of egotism and lack of regard for his readership amongst other personal attacks"?

You take the fall professionally. You get the bad mark on your record, and you take the tip in interest and sales, and hopefully learn from it, what you little you could have done to improve the situation, the end. I'm still drawing a blank as to why you're treating Whedon like an editor instead of a writer hired by a company. You cite a bunch of life lessons or something and call Whedon out for unprofessionalism, all the whilst disregarding the simple fact that getting an artist to draw is not his job. You want to talk about reality? Then stop treating things unrealistically. Whedon is not Ryan's higher-up. Whedon does not pay Cassaday. Their actual bosses are their keepers, not Whedon. And if his choice of artists was really that poor, then Whedon's bosses should have pulled their weight and undermined him; don't even tell me that isn't possible, considering how quick they were to pull Cassaday off to do Fallen Son. That is the fact, and whatever professional culpability Whedon receives from this situation would indeed take that into account.

I have admitted being harsher on him before. It likely stems from the fact that, as an A-Lister, he has fans like you who swoon over his most basic drivel. You can't bare to grade him below a 7.0 out of 10.0. There's no way his RUNAWAYS run is above a 6.5 out of 10 if I graded like that.

This totally has anything at all to do with what we're discussing and addresses my actual arguments instead of ad hominem-ing all over the room.

Christ, you even admit upfront that you're ragging here more out of irrational bitterness than for any real substantial reason. You actually want people to take that seriously? Come on. Are you seriously going to tell me that you flip out over him only because he has a lot of fans? Because that's pathetic. I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that is pathetic.

And I have argued that. He is WHEDON. Every single person at Marvel licks his feet. BUFFY and ANGEL were the greatest TV shows ever produced, don'tchaknow? Any artist he works with has to be approved. And I bet timely schedules weren't even a factor in those decisions. I'm sure it isn't out of malice or anything. He just thinks his stories are worth the wait. And maybe they are. But not THIS much of a wait.

See, there's that magic again, magically telling you exactly what and how Whedon thinks. I wish I could do that, honestly.

I just don't understand where you are ****ting up all this bile from. You yourself have at times admitted that, in actual interviews, Whedon comes across as humble in regards to his work, even self-deprecating. Where are you possibly getting this image of the self-absorbed narcissist who doesn't care about his stories? I outright hate many writers and loathe many more, and even I wouldn't apply those sorts of pejoratives to any of them. You just sound sour and unreasonable. There's no other way of putting it.

Cassaday was well known for tardy art years before AXM. Ryan couldn't handle more than 3 issues of EXCALIBUR before needing fill-in's. Considering Whedon's almighty skill, couldn't he have figured out a tactic that a mere mortal like Brubaker & Fraction did for CAPTAIN AMERICA and IMMORTAL IRON FIST? Bring in a different artist for the time travel issues or flashbacks, so Ryan wouldn't have had to do more than 1-2 whole issues straight? I mean, I should expect greatness from HIS GREATNESS, right?

The price of being A-List talent is that one expects A-List results. That is reality. That is also part of why I am especially harder on types like, say, Millar and Bendis than, say, Grevioux. And to say that is unfair is to simply deny a key part of life. Whedon, in his Marvel work, has not produced A-List results on an A-List schedule. His comics, regardless of fault, have come out slow enough to shame an indie.

So basically what you're saying is that you had ludicrously unrealistic expectations and prejudices on top of preconceptions on top of forced comparisons instead of treating him like any other writer writing a comic book under a major company. Got it.

And, yet again, I feel the need to correct you in your misrepresentations: Whedon has produced on an A-List schedule. Cassaday and Ryan have not. I realize you need your thin excuses to vent, but there is such a thing as stretching a point...and then there is outright bull****. Cut away all this back-and-forth quote-vomitting, and that's really the only thing I've tried to say right from the outset.

You always bring up the issue of fairness in these sorts of debates both against me and others, and in the eternal words of Keith Giffen: please, grow a set. It always just sounds like an excuse to prejudge, and falsify, and embellish, all under the justification of "The world's not fair so I'm not either!!" instead of any solid backing. I'm sorry if I can't fall in line with your...prosaic...worldview, but I'm not sorry, y'know?

So, I should tear Ryan to pieces and give Whedon a pass, right? Golly, what a novel idea from you!

This is what your statements consist of:
"Damn, Ryan is late as usual. GODDAMN **** WHEDON AND HIS ****ING BUFFY **** HOLLYWOOD BULL**** **** SO OVERRATED, CHRIST. STUPID WHEDON. STUPID ****ing WHEDON AND HIS STUPID ****ING LATE EGO ****ING COMICS ****. Oh and Ryan is late."

I compressed it a bit but, please, go ahead and tell me it's not accurate.

From every review of yours I have read, you haven't cared one whit about waiting 4+ years for a 25 issue story in AXM, or 14 months for a 6 issue arc in RUNAWAYS.

Yes, yet again, attacking my preferences is a very effective way of ignoring my actual argument.

You're also wrong, incidentally. Not that it matters for the purposes what you're actually discussing, but --

I'll tell ya, I really, really needed to restrain myself from throwing all the votes to Astonishing X-Men, mostly 'cause that book barely comes out enough to be considered a book at all, much less a Marvel bok.

the lateness of shipping a comic as good as this is nigh-sinful. If Marvel had gotten their [NEW CENSOR RULES, ACTIVATE!] together, this series would be done by now.

On a downside, the plot has completely reached the point of "hellish dragging." It's weird; maybe it's just because of the lateness

Still, this would probably be the first issue that I felt hasn't been truly worth the wait.

-- you really think that I of all people wouldn't notice or mind that one of my favorite books never ship? The only difference is that I don't whine about it like clockwork, much less irrationally vent blame at the easiest target.

He's slow as hell, too. He's like Ryan; asking more than 2 timely issues from him is like asking for Micheal Jackson to be black again. In a few posts I recommended either replacing him or having a ready artist to fill in for him for a Volume 2. But the reality is unlike Heinberg, who was a slowpoke on WONDER WOMAN and has done nada, not even co-plot, extra issues of YA, Cheung at least has been working. He's slow, but at least he draw an ILLUMINATI series written by Bendis & Reed. He's drawn a few issues of NEW AVENGERS and MIGHTY AVENGERS. And lord knows how many covers. I agree, he's a slowpoke, but at least he is available to work. Heinberg can't even scribble an outline on a cocktail napkin and mail it to Joe Q postage due.

What part of any of that isn't also applicable to Whedon, who isn't even slow? He's also constantly writing. He's always available to work. Oh, I suppose this is just you being "unfair" again.

So Whedon was able to find a far faster artist for BUFFY? I guess we do wear out hearts on our sleeve. I bet if BUFFY was running half a year behind on an issue, Whedon would not take it as lightly as he has with AXM and RUNAWAYS.

You lose your bet. He didn't do that for his first comic, Fray, which was a Buffy tie-in and did end up running quite late.

I'll admit to being overly harsh on Whedon if you'll admit to being easily pleased.

Or, we could actually debate based on facts on not whatever biases strike our fancies at the moment. Wacky idea, I know. No one cares about your issues, and I say that as pragmatically as possible. Either argue rationally or stop wasting our time.

 

[gildea]

....sheesh. Mental note, don't slag off whedon.

 

[Darthphere]

Fine, it's not his fault the books were late, lets talk about how overrated he is.

 

[iloveclones]

Dread may have complained about the mask but I think he would have recognised that it was an excellent issue and the unmasking was crucial to the story.

seriously that is out of context its practicaly political.

Calm down. My next post to Dread was that USM has actually been pretty good lately. I'm not trying to get him to pick up the book again, but I thought the Spider-friends issues, the Shocker issue, and this latest one were all very good. And I've never even liked Immomen, but he seems to be doing good stuff here.

I was only posting that because I knew he always complained about U-Pete losing his mask every other issue, so I thought it was funny. Nothing "political" going on here, just some ribbing.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Fine, it's not his fault the books were late, lets talk about how overrated he is.

That was pretty much what I was thinking while skimming all of that.

 

[gildea]

Calm down. My next post to Dread was that USM has actually been pretty good lately. I'm not trying to get him to pick up the book again, but I thought the Spider-friends issues, the Shocker issue, and this latest one were all very good. And I've never even liked Immomen, but he seems to be doing good stuff here.

Sorry sir my bad, I think i just read dreads reply about it "circling the drain" irked me somewhat pretty much because the book has picked up sharply of late.

I was only posting that because I knew he always complained about U-Pete losing his mask every other issue, so I thought it was funny. Nothing "political" going on here, just some ribbing.

Heh I meant taking something out of context is something that politicians do not that you had an agenda.

Regardless though I apologise, I was wrong.

 

[Dread]

....sheesh. Mental note, don't slag off whedon.

No kidding.

Fine, it's not his fault the books were late, lets talk about how overrated he is.

Fair enough. I've done some *****ing about that, too.

I was only posting that because I knew he always complained about U-Pete losing his mask every other issue, so I thought it was funny. Nothing "political" going on here, just some ribbing.

I understood your point.

That was pretty much what I was thinking while skimming all of that.

Yeah, he's overrated. I would never call Whedon a "poor" writer in terms of quality, but a generic story with good moments is still a generic story with good moments, not a masterwork. I don't mistake one for the other.

 

[Dread]

Figured I would keep the bickering with BrianWilly separated to it's own post, so others could skip it if they choose. I'm in the mood for another go 'round. I have to sacrifice yet another weekend to care for an invalid relative because my aunt & cousin are selfish, so let's do this.

By "take the fall," do you mean actually mean "be accused of egotism and lack of regard for his readership amongst other personal attacks"?

Dude, you act like Whedon reads Hype. He doesn't. It's basically like screaming to a wall and I understand that. But sometimes I don't mind doing that.

You take the fall professionally. You get the bad mark on your record, and you take the tip in interest and sales, and hopefully learn from it, what you little you could have done to improve the situation, the end.

You seriously think Whedon took any sort of fall professionally? Neither company has a practical strategy to deal with horribly late comics. DC tries to sub in artists or filler arcs, and they made the situation worse. Marvel adopts a "what, me worry?" approach and pretends the problem doesn't exist. Sales wise, Marvel's been proven the better, if only because there are more Marvel Zombies than DC Zombies, and probably have been for at least a decade.

Whedon won't get a bad mark on his record. He could submit a pitch to Joe Q's office (or Dan DiDio's) tomorrow and get is approved lickity split. There isn't one comic company on the planet that will give a damn about lateness right now. Now, in terms of sales, RUNAWAYS has fallen a bit since his debut at issue #25. It isn't back to Vaughan levels, but closer to it than it was 13 months ago. But, this isn't ICON so Whedon still got paid for it. AXM didn't take much of a hit in sales. Every issue sold at least 100k, no matter how late it was. But, X-Fans have long been known for being suckers.

Whether Whedon will learn anything from his second straight lateness plagued debacle at Marvel is really up to him. Objectively, he at least learned from AXM to tighten the pace of his stories up since. RUNAWAYS wasn't nearly as slow per issue as AXM was. Even if it was as slow as AXM in terms of output. Ryan, BTW, is no Cassaday.

So, in the context of this second late arc costing Whedon absolutely nothing in terms of professionalism and sales, is it really too out of whack for me to be a little miffed about that?

I'm still drawing a blank as to why you're treating Whedon like an editor instead of a writer hired by a company. You cite a bunch of life lessons or something and call Whedon out for unprofessionalism, all the whilst disregarding the simple fact that getting an artist to draw is not his job. You want to talk about reality? Then stop treating things unrealistically. Whedon is not Ryan's higher-up. Whedon does not pay Cassaday. Their actual bosses are their keepers, not Whedon. And if his choice of artists was really that poor, then Whedon's bosses should have pulled their weight and undermined him; don't even tell me that isn't possible, considering how quick they were to pull Cassaday off to do Fallen Son. That is the fact, and whatever professional culpability Whedon receives from this situation would indeed take that into account.

You have a point on Cassaday and FALLEN SON.

A writer can always nag an artist on his own time. Y'know, professionals? I agree, that isn't his job, but Whedon is supposed to be a TV man, understand about deadlines and about every cog on the chain needing to work properly. If the editors weren't doing their jobs, and they don't, then Whedon could have screamed about it. HE'S JOSS WHEDON! He's a ****ing beloved Hollywood scion with a lot more clout than anyone in the comics industry. But he didn't, and that's telling. He shrugged his shoulders and went, "such is life". And I guess I can't blame him. Maybe I'd be like that if I had so many fans zealously protecting me from blame, too.

This totally has anything at all to do with what we're discussing and addresses my actual arguments instead of ad hominem-ing all over the room.

I figured I would be honest. I do cop to being a bit harsh on Whedon. But you never cop to being easy on him.

Christ, you even admit upfront that you're ragging here more out of irrational bitterness than for any real substantial reason. You actually want people to take that seriously? Come on. Are you seriously going to tell me that you flip out over him only because he has a lot of fans? Because that's pathetic. I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that is pathetic.

What is pathetic to me is someone who always backs a writer up no matter how mediocre or late his end product is. Every time I read a BrianWilly post, it tends to have a few themes:

1). Whedon is all.
2). BrianWilly is more intelligent and clever than anyone else.
3). The fact that BrianWilly worships at the church of Joss simply makes him more intelligent and clever for having picked the right fiction writer to worship.
4). Exclamations beginning with the word "Buffy" count as being clever.
5). No matter how late, good, bad, or mediocre a Whedon comic it, it is always 7.0 in a scale of 10.0, with 5.0 being considered "average". Simply by writing on a book, a Whedon comic is 20% better than an average one.
6). BrianWilly will complain about personal attacks while dishing them out himself freely. Call it "Wonder Woman Logic"; preach peace and love, while not being afraid to bloody one's knuckles to achieve it.

I could go on, if you don't like sugercoating.

And yes, I am more than aware my own posts have themes, too.
1). Bendis is [INSERT UNPLEASANT ADJECTIVE]
2). Overreacting.
3). Long posts.
4). ****ing.

See, there's that magic again, magically telling you exactly what and how Whedon thinks. I wish I could do that, honestly.

You're probably closer to doing that then many of us. After all, you're already so far up his rectum. You can almost kiss his brain-stem.

I just don't understand where you are ****ting up all this bile from. You yourself have at times admitted that, in actual interviews, Whedon comes across as humble in regards to his work, even self-deprecating. Where are you possibly getting this image of the self-absorbed narcissist who doesn't care about his stories? I outright hate many writers and loathe many more, and even I wouldn't apply those sorts of pejoratives to any of them. You just sound sour and unreasonable. There's no other way of putting it.

Coming from someone who never backs down when he thinks he is right on a forum, calling me unreasonable is a little hypocritical.

No, Whedon doesn't come off as an egomaniac in interviews and whatnot. Maybe it wasn't fair to lump him into Hollywood types that are. But his inaction simply makes it easier to lump him into that pile. It is a professional indifference that plagues comics, and Whedon is not the answer to it. Therefore, he is part of the problem. But maybe I have become more of an Objectivist as I have gotten older.

So basically what you're saying is that you had ludicrously unrealistic expectations and prejudices on top of preconceptions on top of forced comparisons instead of treating him like any other writer writing a comic book under a major company. Got it.

Oh, please, that's B.S. in a bucket. Like when you go to see a movie, you have the exact same expectations for a Steven Spielberg movie as you do for a Uwe Boll film. If you do, you're either a liar or a complete ******. While we're not sugercoating stuff.

In a perfect world, yes, expectations should be equal. But we don't live in one, and people don't act that way. Even when they say they do, they don't, because most people are liars, to themselves and others, at heart. Whedon is an A-List talent and therefore the bar is higher for him. That is the downside to the A-List status, which brings with it more freedom creatively, an automatic fanbase and approval rating, and a pedigree. It is hard to earn and sometimes harder to maintain. But it is what it is.

The way you say it, you act as if you have equal expectations when going to a 5 star steak joint or White Castle. If you do, then Whedon help you.

And, yet again, I feel the need to correct you in your misrepresentations: Whedon has produced on an A-List schedule. Cassaday and Ryan have not. I realize you need your thin excuses to vent, but there is such a thing as stretching a point...and then there is outright bull****. Cut away all this back-and-forth quote-vomitting, and that's really the only thing I've tried to say right from the outset.

As part of that creative team, Whedon has to get some responsibility for the result. If my boss teams me up with my office co-worker on a project, and it falls MONTHS behind schedule, who gets blamed? BOTH OF US. If I complain that my co-worker is a slowpoke, then I am told to GET ON THEIR ARSE. That is life. And while, yes, it is a fact that comics are a cottage industry that coddles so many egos that things like simple responsibility are always deferred, I have a right to hold people to the same expectations that are held to me. Out in the real world.

You always bring up the issue of fairness in these sorts of debates both against me and others, and in the eternal words of Keith Giffen: please, grow a set. It always just sounds like an excuse to prejudge, and falsify, and embellish, all under the justification of "The world's not fair so I'm not either!!" instead of any solid backing. I'm sorry if I can't fall in line with your...prosaic...worldview, but I'm not sorry, y'know?

Fine. You're always right and I am always full of ****. Right? That about it? Sorry if I disagree with that one.

This is what your statements consist of:
"Damn, Ryan is late as usual. GODDAMN **** WHEDON AND HIS ****ING BUFFY **** HOLLYWOOD BULL**** **** SO OVERRATED, CHRIST. STUPID WHEDON. STUPID ****ing WHEDON AND HIS STUPID ****ING LATE EGO ****ING COMICS ****. Oh and Ryan is late."

I compressed it a bit but, please, go ahead and tell me it's not accurate.

I could. I'd just be wrong, is all.

So, if I reversed it, went on a cursing tirade about Ryan and licked Whedon's package metaphorically like you do, that'd be cool, and we'd be best buddies in the cult, right?

Yes, yet again, attacking my preferences is a very effective way of ignoring my actual argument.

Coming from a guy who called me pathetic.

-- you really think that I of all people wouldn't notice or mind that one of my favorite books never ship? The only difference is that I don't whine about it like clockwork, much less irrationally vent blame at the easiest target.

Whedon is an EASY target!? Every time I complain about him, I get you or some other *****e posting back at me and telling me what a fascist ******ed a-hole I am and that I am pathetic and always wrong about any opinion on any subject I ever have. If that is an EASY target, I want to see a hard one.

President Bush is an easy target. Joss Whedon is not, apparently.

And no, I don't think you mind it, although if lateness is the only reason all Whedon Marvel comics aren't getting 8.0's from you instead of 7.0's or better, than sweet Christmas, you're biased. I mean, I usually love Dan Slott's work, but even I was skeptical of his stuff with Slapstick and wasn't impressed with his ASM stuff on a flip-through. And I don't profess my love for him on my title and then ***** when people presume I am biased towards him. That's like if I got angry if someone goes, "Hey, Dread's a Casey Jones lover!"

What part of any of that isn't also applicable to Whedon, who isn't even slow? He's also constantly writing. He's always available to work. Oh, I suppose this is just you being "unfair" again.

You brought up Cheung and Heinberg so I complained about them for a while.

You lose your bet. He didn't do that for his first comic, Fray, which was a Buffy tie-in and did end up running quite late.

Okay then. So even with BUFFY comics he runs behind and shrugs. That doesn't make him look better. Of course, to be fair, he probably was still working on BUFFY or ANGEL while writing that.

Or, we could actually debate based on facts on not whatever biases strike our fancies at the moment. Wacky idea, I know. No one cares about your issues, and I say that as pragmatically as possible. Either argue rationally or stop wasting our time.

I seem to have more people agreeing with me than you many times here. I may be too harsh on Whedon, but people can smell an apologist when they see one, and you are. You think you aren't because you don't exactly grade him 10 out of 10 every time, but that is like someone saying they aren't a chocoholic because white chocolate is their "least favorite". You bash me for being overly strict on Whedon due to his pedigree yet you give him a 20% curve on average for his work that no other writer gets from you. And you won't even cop to it. You admit it on your avatar and you won't even cop to it.

You don't want to debate with me cleanly, and frankly I don't with you. We're too opposites in philosophy. Any argument between the two of us is destined to get nasty before long. You get nasty with the slightest provacation and I have been in a pissy mood all week. The question is whether a mod asks us to stop or one or both of us gets tired of the dance. I may or may not respond to your next volley. I'll be more tired by then.

 

[Doc Destruction]

QUOTE WAR!!!

Eek.

 

[Sebastos]

Immortal Iron Fist #16:#16 was a great issue and a very awesome ending to Bru and Fraction's run on the book. I loved all the changes going on in Danny's life and the focus of his character. Really, this issue set up alot of great things for the future of this series and the plot twist was kickass! I really can't wait for #17 and to see how Duane and Foreman handle this new storyline. With that said, bring on #17.

9/10

 

[iloveclones]

Figured I would keep the bickering with BrianWilly separated to it's own post, so others could skip it if they choose. I'm in the mood for another go 'round. I have to sacrifice yet another weekend to care for an invalid relative because my aunt & cousin are selfish, so let's do this.

.

Full disclosure: I really didn't read anything past that, I just don't have the energy. But it's nice to hear that some of you guys act like the heroes we love. Good for you, Dread.

 

[iloveclones]

Sorry sir my bad, I think i just read dreads reply about it "circling the drain" irked me somewhat pretty much because the book has picked up sharply of late.



Heh I meant taking something out of context is something that politicians do not that you had an agenda.

Regardless though I apologise, I was wrong.

Finally, Rodney King's pleas were heard, and we can all just get along!!! (Well, all of us except Dread and BrianWilly.....and sometimes Doc Destruction......and fifthfiend. Definately fifth...Oh, *%$#! Forget I ever said it. King was a cokehead anyway. Lets go find him and beat him over the head with a copy of We are the World.....)

 

[Darthphere]

Immortal Iron Fist #16:#16 was a great issue and a very awesome ending to Bru and Fraction's run on the book. I loved all the changes going on in Danny's life and the focus of his character. Really, this issue set up alot of great things for the future of this series and the plot twist was kickass! I really can't wait for #17 and to see how Duane and Foreman handle this new storyline. With that said, bring on #17.

9/10

God Bless your heart trying to get back on track.

 

[fifthfiend]

......and fifthfiend. Definately fifth...Oh, *%$#! Forget I ever said it.

I get along just fine.

I just get along in a way that is superficially indistinguishable from being an antagonistic *******.

 

[BrianWilly]

Dude, you act like Whedon reads Hype. He doesn't. It's basically like screaming to a wall and I understand that. But sometimes I don't mind doing that.

I'm acting like your statements are pointedly and purposefully slanted to the point of comedy. Like I said at first and will now repeat, you've somehow managed to twist "writer picked late artists" into "writer is spoiled ignoramus who doesn't care about his work."

You seriously think Whedon took any sort of fall professionally? Neither company has a practical strategy to deal with horribly late comics. DC tries to sub in artists or filler arcs, and they made the situation worse. Marvel adopts a "what, me worry?" approach and pretends the problem doesn't exist. Sales wise, Marvel's been proven the better, if only because there are more Marvel Zombies than DC Zombies, and probably have been for at least a decade.

Whedon won't get a bad mark on his record. He could submit a pitch to Joe Q's office (or Dan DiDio's) tomorrow and get is approved lickity split. There isn't one comic company on the planet that will give a damn about lateness right now. Now, in terms of sales, RUNAWAYS has fallen a bit since his debut at issue #25. It isn't back to Vaughan levels, but closer to it than it was 13 months ago. But, this isn't ICON so Whedon still got paid for it. AXM didn't take much of a hit in sales. Every issue sold at least 100k, no matter how late it was. But, X-Fans have long been known for being suckers.

And this is absolutely all Whedon's fault, damn him for masterminding these series of contingencies so deviously engineered in his favor.

A writer can always nag an artist on his own time. Y'know, professionals? I agree, that isn't his job, but Whedon is supposed to be a TV man, understand about deadlines and about every cog on the chain needing to work properly. If the editors weren't doing their jobs, and they don't, then Whedon could have screamed about it. HE'S JOSS WHEDON! He's a ****ing beloved Hollywood scion with a lot more clout than anyone in the comics industry. But he didn't, and that's telling. He shrugged his shoulders and went, "such is life". And I guess I can't blame him. Maybe I'd be like that if I had so many fans zealously protecting me from blame, too.

Please show me a single piece of evidence, or even some sort of clue or suggestion or subtext, from any manner of source whatsoever, which led you to believe that Whedon didn't do that. I myself, of course, have no evidence that he did, and what I'm asking for is not negative proof. What I'm asking for is any supportable reason whatsoever why you're choosing to believe the worst of Whedon beyond your own preconceptions and bitter biases, which run counter to what even you yourself empirically know about him: he cops to his mistakes instead of making excuses for them. I mean, you say straight up that he didn't try to fix things, and I'm just asking you how you know that.

And because I know you're thinking it, yes, you're right: maybe I have no supportable reason to believe the best of Whedon, other than that he's my favorite writer. But then, I'm not the one who's written paragraph after paragraph trying to pass off my personal impressions as valid topics. And that, beyond any sorts of similarities that you attempt to drum up between us, is the difference here.

You're probably closer to doing that then many of us. After all, you're already so far up his rectum. You can almost kiss his brain-stem.

Clever boy! Feel better now? To be honest, I've learned more about what you really think from these little attempts at sidetracking and ad hominem than I ever have from any of your wordy paragraphs or prose. I've just asked you how you could possibly know how Whedon thinks, and you've just told me that you can't.

Coming from someone who never backs down when he thinks he is right on a forum, calling me unreasonable is a little hypocritical.

I know I'm right, and am prepared to defend my arguments as intensely yet objectively as I can. I think you're unreasonable because you have a tendency to appeal to bias, preconceptions, and flat-out guesses at the worst when asked to defend your arguments. Do you think I keep using those words against you because I'm pulling them out of my fine ass? You gave them to me. As it has happened before, so it happens yet again. How many sweeping mischaracterizations or too-broad assumptions have you made here in the scope of this conversation --all of which having been proven wrong with some simple search results or general knowledge about the subject -- and tried to pass them off as valid points? You tell me upfront that you're making all these disparaging statements for the most part because Whedon fans liking Whedon annoy you, and then you get ********* when I think that is trolling at best and pathetic at worst?

Oh, please, that's B.S. in a bucket. Like when you go to see a movie, you have the exact same expectations for a Steven Spielberg movie as you do for a Uwe Boll film. If you do, you're either a liar or a complete ******. While we're not sugercoating stuff.

In a perfect world, yes, expectations should be equal. But we don't live in one, and people don't act that way. Even when they say they do, they don't, because most people are liars, to themselves and others, at heart. Whedon is an A-List talent and therefore the bar is higher for him. That is the downside to the A-List status, which brings with it more freedom creatively, an automatic fanbase and approval rating, and a pedigree. It is hard to earn and sometimes harder to maintain. But it is what it is.

The way you say it, you act as if you have equal expectations when going to a 5 star steak joint or White Castle. If you do, then Whedon help you.

I don't perceive one writer the same way as I do another writer, that's very true. On the other hand I also don't usually hold it as a personal affront and assume the worst of personality shortcomings when someone is not capable of laying golden eggs on command (especially, need I say yet again, if it wasn't his job to lay those eggs in the first place). The way you say it, it's almost like you hold Whedon and others' A-list statuses as some sort of unwanted defect that they have to overcome. If preconceptions take you that far, maybe it's time to reconsider those preconceptions.

I saw Wanted the other day, and I thought the soundtrack sucked pretty badly, almost ruining a lot of scenes. I could blame the director, I suppose, for hiring Danny Elfman. But then, Danny Elfman is a respected composer with a long list of hits under him; why should I assume that the director had the worst of intentions when he hired him, or even when he kept him? That doesn't seem reasonable at all. Why should I not presume that the director merely wanted what's best for the movie, however misguided the decision turned out to be? Why should I assume, without any indications one way or another, that he simply didn't care about his work or that he just didn't feel like putting that extra effort in to...hire an entirely different composer and redo the whole score? Not that seems like I'm just picking bones for the sake of picking bones. Hell, maybe I should blame Angelina Jolie, too...she surely had the clout to do something about it!

As part of that creative team, Whedon has to get some responsibility for the result. If my boss teams me up with my office co-worker on a project, and it falls MONTHS behind schedule, who gets blamed? BOTH OF US. If I complain that my co-worker is a slowpoke, then I am told to GET ON THEIR ARSE. That is life. And while, yes, it is a fact that comics are a cottage industry that coddles so many egos that things like simple responsibility are always deferred, I have a right to hold people to the same expectations that are held to me. Out in the real world.

If you know for a fact that one single person caused the lateness, or was a primary instigator, then you would treat the primary instigator different than the partner that he dragged down. You'd probably even weed him out as the problem to be solved here. If you don't, or in fact overemphasize the culpability of the wronged party far beyond the instigator, then you are merely being petty and unreasonable. The end. You are attempting to paint this all out as some vague office mystery scenario where someone has to be chosen to take the fall for a failed project based on an imperfect awareness of what went down, except that you know for a fact exactly how it went down, who was more culpable, and who deserves the blame more. You know for a fact that Ryan dragged Whedon down, and yet you are trying to depict Whedon as the one more at fault here because I guess he should have tried harder or something. That is bass-****ing-ackwards! To hold the person responsible for a fault responsible for the fault, instead of the person not responsible for it, is such common sense and normative thinking that it actually annoys me that you could sit there and pretend not to understand it. Yes, that's right I said it, it honest-to-Buffy annoys me that you are being so dense about this.

On top of which, if you were the boss and you knew for a fact that one single person caused the lateness and you yourself as the boss did nothing to rectify it and in fact aggravated the situation, you have absolutely no room to chew out the remaining party...who incidentally is the only who actually did his job, of all the parties involved. You're trying to pass this off as Whedon having somehow cleverly weaseled his way out of some wriggly pitfall all the whilst shedding the blame on everyone but himself when, in reality, there was no pitfall. There was no weasling. Perhaps it truly doesn't work that way in real life and it's all actually just a corrupt cluster**** of unfairness and people getting wrongfully accused and pointed fingers always fingering the right target regardless of context...but that doesn't mean I have to endorse it. In fact, I fully mean not to. You've presented an imperfect description of the scenario, and while I won't claim mine is perfect, it at least it takes more things into account -- is more fair, in other words -- than yours.

I could. I'd just be wrong, is all.

So, if I reversed it, went on a cursing tirade about Ryan and licked Whedon's package metaphorically like you do, that'd be cool, and we'd be best buddies in the cult, right?

What, you mean if you presented a situation more accurately as opposed to the sweeping misrepresentations that you've been dishing? Yeah, that'd be cool. And I'd probably be less critical, yes.

Coming from a guy who called me pathetic.

Your personal preference was your argument. It still is. You literally said, "I'm being so harsh against Whedon because I don't like it that he has devoted fans like you." Your responses to me just now have been, "God, it sickens me that you defend him so much." What did you expect me to say? That you don't attack my preferences as a way to ignore my actual arguments over and over again? Well, in yet more eternal words from Keith Giffen, file that under "tough bounce" because I'm not going to do that.

Whedon is an EASY target!? Every time I complain about him, I get you or some other *****e posting back at me and telling me what a fascist ******ed a-hole I am and that I am pathetic and always wrong about any opinion on any subject I ever have. If that is an EASY target, I want to see a hard one.

I meant easy target as in being in the most public light. But while we're on the subject, would you seriously like me to do a search for all the times you've lambasted Whedon -- in threads that I myself have frequented -- and neither I nor any other *****e ever made a peep about it? On second thought, forget it...do it yourself. I'm getting a bit tired of proving your sweeping statements wrong over and over again.

Maybe there was once a time where I would jump to Whedon's defense over even the tritest subjective statements, but if I did, I honestly don't recall them. In fact, let me go ahead and say that, to all concerned, I genuinely apologize if I ever blew a fuse over any subjective opinions anyone's ever had, however negative, about Whedon's work or talent. However, I do not and will never apologize for correcting anyone -- harshly if need be -- for their flat-out misrepresentations, imprecise assumptions, and audacious embellishments as far as I can tell, whether they intended to do so or not, regarding any writer and not just Whedon.

And no, I don't think you mind it, although if lateness is the only reason all Whedon Marvel comics aren't getting 8.0's from you instead of 7.0's or better, than sweet Christmas, you're biased. I mean, I usually love Dan Slott's work, but even I was skeptical of his stuff with Slapstick and wasn't impressed with his ASM stuff on a flip-through. And I don't profess my love for him on my title and then ***** when people presume I am biased towards him. That's like if I got angry if someone goes, "Hey, Dread's a Casey Jones lover!"

I never ***** when you presume that I like Whedon, and frankly the fact that you still think so says a lot. I ***** when you use that as an excuse to ignore what I have to say. How many times have you done just that, even now?

Me: "Whedon doesn't have an ego."
You: "You don't know anything because you never give him bad reviews!!!!"

That sort of illogical exchange would be nigh-comical if it weren't for the fact that -- judging from the amount of times that you have droned that exact line -- you are being totally serious about it and honestly think that it has anything at all to do with...what did you call it? A "clean debate?" Please. This is not even the first time I've told you this, so you don't even have the thin excuse of ignorance that you did for the first, oh, dozen or so times that you did it. In fact, **** this ****, frankly let me just say this: if all our future interactions are going to consist of you pigeonholing my fandom out of some pathetic way to dodge all those questions you can't or won't answer, please just let me know about it right now so I can go ahead and ignore you from here on out. Seriously.

I seem to have more people agreeing with me than you many times here.

Heh, I actually, honestly think that you didn't mean for that to sound as heinously childish as it did. Here, you get a retry on that one.

You bash me for being overly strict on Whedon due to his pedigree yet you give him a 20% curve on average for his work that no other writer gets from you.

Untrue, and you know it. No more time wasted on your overreaching claims.

I may be too harsh on Whedon, but people can smell an apologist when they see one, and you are. You think you aren't because you don't exactly grade him 10 out of 10 every time, but that is like someone saying they aren't a chocoholic because white chocolate is their "least favorite".

...........

And you won't even cop to it. You admit it on your avatar and you won't even cop to it.

You seem to have made it some sort of mission to prove that my biases cripple me as much as your biases do. Hey, guess what? I'm not going to apologize for liking Whedon more than other writers, which you -- for Willow knows what reason -- seem to think is some sort of shameful handicap. But I will say that I try earnestly to keep a level mind about the subject of Whedon, and at the very least I won't say things about him that I know objectively not to be true. And that is not the case for you. From what I have seen and that you have all but proven to me over these last few exchanges, you seem to accept and even thrive on your biases. I'd like to think, and this honestly may just be wishful thinking on my part, that any habits that I do gather from being a fan of Whedon's junk informs and maybe even strengthens how I think as a person. Maybe even for the better, who knows. That's what art does. That's what we all wish from our favored creators, after all. You feel sorry for me that I like Whedon? Don't. What have you done lately with your bias, Dread, other than to vent your misinformed frustrations based on the justification that you don't like someone else's fandom...oh, hmm, how did you put it? "Screaming to a wall"? I'm glad that's working out for you.

The only thing I admit on my avatar is that Whedon is my favorite writer. I do not and will never admit -- because I don't believe -- that Whedon being my favorite writer renders me incapable of presenting an informed, coherent, and valid position on him. The fact that you think so, and have shown that you are incapable of thinking otherwise no matter what, has and always will be your problem and your problem alone. You see what you want to see.

 

[Ikaris-Eternal]

i have never understood the obsession with "late" comics. who f'ing cares? the comic comes out when it comes out. why does it affect you if a book doesn't appear every month? surely you have enough of a life that you're not waiting with baited breath for a comic to arrive.

 

[iloveclones]

^ I really, really don't.

 

[iloveclones]

In a more serious vein Ikaris, I don't mind comics coming late. Hell, I finished reading Black Cat mini, and plan on buying Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine if it ever comes out. Ultimates and Astonishing X-Men were consistently late, but they were good, so I stuck with them. But I also watch the sales numbers, and that's fair territory for me (and the rest) to comment on. And any comic that shows delays always shows a serious drop in readership. Hey, you snooze, you lose. some readers will move on to something else. I don't view it as a "slap in the face" and all that kind of nonsense. BUT, I do have a vested interest in the health of Marvel, the comics I read, and comics in general. And lateness does affect that.

 

[Doc Destruction]

i have never understood the obsession with "late" comics. who f'ing cares? the comic comes out when it comes out. why does it affect you if a book doesn't appear every month? surely you have enough of a life that you're not waiting with baited breath for a comic to arrive.

Because they're monthly periodicals?

Hell, I would LOVE to see what happened to me at work if I turned in my stuff a month late.

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, it's not that hard to understand. It's a monthly comic, they told us it's monthly, we didn't assume it. Deliver it monthly.

 

[Themanofbat]

I read all three Avengers books this week...

They were good.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

So nobody picked up Marvel Mythos: Captain America?

That book was EXCELLENT, imo....