Bought // Thought November 05 2008

[BrianWilly]

I'm thinking specifically of the issues of Superman chasing Wally all across the world as he searched for his wife, or of flashbacks of Wally being envious of Dick's cave while he only had his aunt's house to hang in. Things like that. Things like that are just as important as anything he may have done with the Rogues or any Speed Force shenanigans or whatever.

 

[Blader5489]

I wouldn't go that far. I thought Johns was true to Wally's character, he just didn't do anything too revolutionary with him.

Johns changed Wally's supporting cast from other speedsters to cops and police scientists--just like Barry. He changed Wally's costume so that instead of creating it himself from the Speed Force, it was a regular spandex costume that shot out of a ring--just like Barry. And of course, Hal erasing Wally's identity from everyone's minds, which isn't like Barry, but it's still regressive.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I didn't like the costume or the secret identity bits, but I didn't mind the greater emphasis on the KCPD. Chyre and Morillo are pretty solid characters, and Zolomon's build-up and ultimate transformation into Zoom was handled really well.

 

[Blader5489]

Yeah, the Blitz arc was pretty good, in spite of the miscarriage bit.

I'll be honest, I haven't finished Johns' Flash yet. After reading Ignition, I'm not sure I want to continue with it. I know there's only two trades left, but Ignition was like the Flash equivalent to One More Day.

 

[Darthphere]

Ridiculous comparison.

 

[Blader5489]

No it isn't. And like OMD, the whole thing was just an ends to a means.

 

[Darthphere]

No, it's an extremely ridiculous comparison. You can only compare them on a base level Quality, story, and progression wise, they are two completely different stories. Get off the Johns hating dude and look at things objectively.

 

[Blader5489]

No, it's an extremely ridiculous comparison. You can only compare them on a base level Quality, story, and progression wise, they are two completely different stories. Get off the Johns hating dude and look at things objectively.

In stories, the hero makes a deal with a supernatural being (a deus ex machina in both cases). The end result is that nobody remembers the hero's identity and the hero loses his wife. Both stories exist to just turn back the clock.

 

[prince_dylan]

Johns is a damn fine writer. Action Comics and Green Lantern are really good on a consistent basis.

 

[Darthphere]

In stories, the hero makes a deal with a supernatural being (a deus ex machina in both cases). The end result is that nobody remembers the hero's identity and the hero loses his wife. Both stories exist to just turn back the clock.

Again, that's looking at it at a base level. You can do that with almost any two comic book stories. The fact that The Flash book features Wally, Linda, and their two kids flies in the face of your argument. Wally lost Linda for like an arc, please, stop being ridiculous. Again, I love Johns hating as much as the next guy but you're being stupid about it.

 

[Blader5489]

You can only compare them on a base level

Again, that's looking at it at a base level.

What do you want from me?

 

[Darthphere]

For you to look at something objectively.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yeah the mere fact that pretty much everyone liked Ignition and hated OMD -- even the ones who like BND -- tends to suggest a large difference in quality if not tone and content.

 

[Themanofbat]

I guess I can give DC some leeway in the mindwipe department because I've become used to that style of storytelling with DC...

Ignition was good, but everything seemed to wrap itself up at the end where nothing really changed except that everybody forgot the Flash's secret ID...

OMD simply sucked sonkey balls, especially at the end with the BND prelude... it appeared (at the time) that Marvel was just going to trash it's own continuity.

Eleven months later, and a few well placed tease comments, and I now see that this new direction will reflect into continuity (with everything explained), and Spidey stories will now have better reflection on his own continuity as well as his role within the Marvel Universe and the continuity therein.

Even the "great" JMS era gave the finger to continuity on a few occasions, so my hopes are now higher with what's going to come...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The difference for me is that Wally didn't make a deal with the devil and he didn't have selfish motives. His uncle and an old friend who borders on family offered Wally a chance to protect himself and his wife from further harm after they lost their unborn children. Spider-Man knew his aunt was ready to move on but selfishly decided to keep her alive at the expense of his own marriage because he's the ultimate mama's boy and did so through a deal with Marvel's representation of ultimate evil. Pretty different circumstances, even if the events of each story, taken out of context, are similar.

 

[Darthphere]

The difference for me is that Wally didn't make a deal with the devil and he didn't have selfish motives. His uncle and an old friend who borders on family offered Wally a chance to protect himself and his wife from further harm after they lost their unborn children. Spider-Man knew his aunt was ready to move on but selfishly decided to keep her alive at the expense of his own marriage because he's the ultimate mama's boy and did so through a deal with Marvel's representation of ultimate evil. Pretty different circumstances, even if the events of each story, taken out of context, are similar.

Can we ban Blader?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nope.

 

[Darthphere]

I'll start working on that then.

 

[Blader5489]

The difference for me is that Wally didn't make a deal with the devil and he didn't have selfish motives. His uncle and an old friend who borders on family offered Wally a chance to protect himself and his wife from further harm after they lost their unborn children. Spider-Man knew his aunt was ready to move on but selfishly decided to keep her alive at the expense of his own marriage because he's the ultimate mama's boy and did so through a deal with Marvel's representation of ultimate evil. Pretty different circumstances, even if the events of each story, taken out of context, are similar.

I didn't say OMD was a better story, I said they both sucked.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, no, you said Ignition and OMD were the same, which is a drastic oversimplification of some key elements of each story.

 

[Blader5489]

Well, no, you said Ignition and OMD were the same, which is a drastic oversimplification of some key elements of each story.

Yeah, the same in how they used plot contrivances to turn back the clock for no other reason than...well, to turn back the clock.

I know I'm simplifying things--MJ is gone, Linda eventually came back, the Spectre came to help Wally while Mephisto was manipulating Peter, etc.--but the basics are similar enough.

The only reason I made the comparison in the first place was to show my disdain for Ignition and what Johns did to the character. If it makes everyone happy, I'll just say that Ignition was nothing like One More Day in any respect whatsoever. But that doesn't make it any less of a contrived, insulting, and flat out ****ty story.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, I think the overall story isn't bad at all. Retconning's part of the nature of comics, so if it's done, I can only hope it's done as well as Johns did it in "Ignition." He took the basic core of the retcon he was doing--resetting Wally so his identity is secret again--and crafted a pretty solid, emotionally charged story out of it. But different strokes, I guess.

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, the same in how they used plot contrivances to turn back the clock for no other reason than...well, to turn back the clock.

I know I'm simplifying things--MJ is gone, Linda eventually came back, the Spectre came to help Wally while Mephisto was manipulating Peter, etc.--but the basics are similar enough.

The only reason I made the comparison in the first place was to show my disdain for Ignition and what Johns did to the character. If it makes everyone happy, I'll just say that Ignition was nothing like One More Day in any respect whatsoever. But that doesn't make it any less of a contrived, insulting, and flat out ****ty story.

Thanks, but you're still wrong. Seppuku?

 

[Blader5489]

Yes, kill yourself.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wonder what would happen to a Japanese Catholic who committed seppuku.