Breaking Bad - Part 14

[DyeLorean]

Finales are always somewhat of a letdown. They have to wrap up everything, most of the times there are no surprises, no mystery left, and you feel a little sad inside that the show has ended. It doesn't matter how great the episode is, the very nature of something being 'final' is what makes it disapointing.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Finales are always somewhat of a letdown. They have to wrap up everything, most of the times there are no surprises, no mystery left, and you feel a little sad inside that the show has ended. It doesn't matter how great the episode is, the very nature of something being 'final' is what makes it disapointing.

Disagreed. Finales are mixed, but I think just dismissing any criticism of something by saying 'well, it was the finale' is a bit obtuse. Besides, most were really high on the BB finale, so I don't think your point stands too well in this case.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

The actual quality of the finales/final seasons have absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. The comparison seems very app to me. In here, you have nothing but positivity (to some really hyperbolic degrees) with any kind of critcism dismissed.

Actually, no. Please cite this "praise to hyperbolic degrees." Yes, I have seen it from others here. I've defended people in this thread who have said Breaking Bad isn't the second coming (including YOU if you recall) and have taken it on the nose from the exact hyperbolic BB partisans you're talking about. I love 'Breaking Bad' and think it's masterful, but still think 'The Shield' and 'The Sopranos' were better overall. So cite these hyperbolic fangasms I'm guilty of. I've lauded the series, but haven't gushed over it to the extremes you make it seem.

Over in the Dexter thread you had overwhelming negative thoughts that bled into the series as a whole (to some really hyperbolic degrees) and most positivity dismissed or criticized.

Also not true. I said I loved the first 4 seasons and thought Dexter should have ended there. I said the last four seasons sucked, with the last season in particular being complete crap (I'm hardly alone in this assessment). And I said the finale left such a bad impression it unfortunately tainted the series as a whole for me. But I used to love Dexter (although it was never as good as BB) so that's why it's so disappointing how far it fell.


So just wanted to clear the air about two statements that really distort what I've said about both series.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Actually, no. Please cite this "praise to hyperbolic degrees." Yes, I have seen it from others here. I've defended people in this thread who have said Breaking Bad isn't the second coming (including YOU if you recall) and have taken it on the nose from the exact hyperbolic BB partisans you're talking about. I love 'Breaking Bad' and think it's masterful, but still think 'The Shield' and 'The Sopranos' were better overall. So cite these hyperbolic fangasms I'm guilty of. I've lauded the series, but haven't gushed over it to the extremes you make it seem.

Also not true. I said I loved the first 4 seasons and thought Dexter should have ended there. I said the last four seasons sucked, with the last season in particular being complete crap (I'm hardly alone in this assessment). And I said the finale left such a bad impression it unfortunately tainted the series as a whole for me. But I used to love Dexter (although it was never as good as BB) so that's why it's so disappointing how far it fell.


So just wanted to clear the air about two statements that really distort what I've said about both series.

Where do you get that I'm citing you or anyone specifically? I thought it was clear I was talking about these two threads in a very general sense.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Where do you get that I'm citing you or anyone specifically? I thought it was clear I was talking about these two threads in a very general sense.

Because it's not like you addressed me directly or anything.

The actual quality of the finales/final seasons have absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. The comparison seems very app to me. In here, you have nothing but positivity (to some really hyperbolic degrees) with any kind of critcism dismissed. Over in the Dexter thread you had overwhelming negative thoughts that bled into the series as a whole (to some really hyperbolic degrees) and most positivity dismissed or criticized.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Because it's not like you addressed me directly or anything.

Actually, I wasn't. I was meaning you in the broad sense, as in "you see". Bad wording on my part maybe, but no, I was not directly meaning you JJJ's Ulcer when I said that. Just like the post you originally quoted, I meant what I said in a general sense.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Actually, I wasn't. I was meaning you in the broad sense, as in "you see". Bad wording on my part maybe, but no, I was not directly meaning you JJJ's Ulcer when I said that. Just like the post you originally quoted, I meant what I said in a general sense.

Ah okay. Thanks for clearing that up then. It did have me scratching my head a bit.

 

[DyeLorean]

Disagreed. Finales are mixed, but I think just dismissing any criticism of something by saying 'well, it was the finale' is a bit obtuse. Besides, most were really high on the BB finale, so I don't think your point stands too well in this case.

You missed my point. I'm not dismissing criticism, what I'm saying goes on par with the finale itself, and it's everything that isn't about that specific show, the very idea of something ending.
For example, a lot people has their own ideas of how they would like it to end, and when that doesn't happen, they are disappointed. The show should be judged for what it is, not for what someone thought or wanted to happen. That's a common place when someone arguments why he/she didn't like a specific ending.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ah okay. Thanks for clearing that up then. It did have me scratching my head a bit.

Nah, it's fine. I can see how you got that.

 

[Tron Bonne]

You missed my point. I'm not dismissing criticism, what I'm saying goes on par with the finale itself, and it's everything that isn't about that specific show, the very idea of something ending.
For example, a lot people has their own ideas of how they would like it to end, and when that doesn't happen, they are disappointed. The show should be judged for what it is, not for what someone thought or wanted to happen. That's a common place when someone arguments why he/she didn't like a specific ending.

I still disagree. There is this element of something not ending the way one wants that tints their view, but I don't think that alone discredits any kind of criticism they may have towards that ending. People can still look at things from an objective standpoint, even if certain things they wanted as a fan did or didn't happen (such as certain characters dying or getting together or what have). I think this point leads a little too much to "Well, you didn't like the ending, so you're views and points aren't valid to what the show was". That may not be exactly what you're trying to say here, but follow the logic of it and that's basically where you end up.

 

[DyeLorean]

I still disagree. There is this element of something not ending the way one wants that tints their view, but I don't think that alone discredits any kind of criticism they may have towards that ending. People can still look at things from an objective standpoint, even if certain things they wanted as a fan did or didn't happen (such as certain characters dying or getting together or what have). I think this point leads a little too much to "Well, you didn't like the ending, so you're views and points aren't valid to what the show was". That may not be exactly what you're trying to say here, but follow the logic of it and that's basically where you end up.

No, is more like 'you didn't like the ending because of what happened or because it didn't happen what you wanted?'. Is not about valid points, but about knowing what the creators intended, and/or what the show wanted to accomplish.

 

[Tron Bonne]

No, is more like 'you didn't like the ending because of what happened or because it didn't happen what you wanted?'. Is not about valid points, but about knowing what the creators intended, and/or what the show wanted to accomplish.

That's essentially a condensed version of what I said, though? I don't know exactly what your counter is suppose to be to what I'm saying.

 

[DyeLorean]

That's essentially a condensed version of what I said, though? I don't know exactly what your counter is suppose to be to what I'm saying.

No, because all lies in what those arguments are. There's no right or wrong answer.

 

[Tron Bonne]

No, because all lies in what those arguments are. There's no right or wrong answer.

And that has to do with...what in regards to this? I really have no idea what track you're on now. Originally, it seemed you were commenting on how something being final is where the stem for disappoint in finales (and I guess final seasons, in general, maybe?) come for. Which I don't agree with, at least not in totality. But now, it seems you shifted more to the fact that these arguments are subjective?

I mean, yeah? Even when someone looks at this more objectively, as in they take their fan-*******/fan-wishing out and look at, as you say, what the show meant to accomplish or the themes of the show or what have you, there's not going to be some kind of stone cold truth to what anyone says. I think that goes without saying. I'm not sure how you jumped to this point, though. The last two posts seem kind of like half thoughts to me.

 

[DyeLorean]

I'm sorry. English is not my native language, so it's a little difficult for me to try to express myself. I understand the conversation, I just don't know how to properly explain what I'm trying to say. Again, I'm sorry.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I'm sorry. English is not my native language, so it's a little difficult for me to try to express myself. I understand the conversation, I just don't know how to properly explain what I'm trying to say. Again, I'm sorry.

Ah, I see. No prob, the issue may be on my end too, and I'm not grasping what you mean.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Thank you. Noone expected the final to beat Ozymandias, that's impossible, but still the whole final is a bit too "nice" in regards to everything Walter did. He finishes everything, ties up loose ends and leaves the world...too much of an "happy ending". Would have prefered him returning to cooking, all alone, the only thing left to him, till he dies...He switched his life for Heisenberg and pays the full price, dies alone.

Ozymandias was the episode that where he pays the full price. The guy witnesses his brother-in-law who despite being on opposite sides always tried to protect, loses most his money, and his family for the most part wants nothing to do with them.

The guy may have liked meth, and liked being Heisenberg, but he loves his family more. It may not have always shown, because he kept convincing himself he had to be Heisenberg in order to provide what's best for his family, when in truth he continued because he liked it. He wanted his cake and wanted to eat it to by providing for his family and cooking meth (though in 5th season Skyler finally got tired of it). But even at his worse as Heisenberg, he loved his family, and as the beginning of Ozymandias shown, he would have done anything to keep them out of harm.

It's why when Skyler shown him how much money he had, he realized he didn't have to be Heisenberg, especially when at the time, he didn't think he had any loose ends. It's why in Ozymandias, he tries to Skyler off the hook. It's the whole reason why he came back was to keep his family protected.

It's the reason why Walter White is a character who's fans opinions of him is so divded. Most of his reasoning for doing the worst things (Letting Jane die to get Jesse off Heroin, Poisoning Brock in a Batman Gambit to save his family, killing 10 witness because he hated lose-ends though he probably could have just continued paying them) was for his warped version of the better good.

The finale had emphasized that despite everything, despite all that happened, Walt in his heart is a family man first, not Heisenberg, even if he lost his way in the 5th season.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Put it this way:
Ozymandias was the true finale
Granite State and Felina were the epilogues.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Yep. Almost the show built up to came to a head in Ozymandias. Walt's Empire falling, losing most his money, his family leaving him, Walt telling Jesse about Jane, etc. Pretty much everything but the ricin and machine gun got tied up in that episode.

 

[Dr. Manhatten]

At least they didn't go for some strange, out of left field ending like many finales try and do but ultimately fail at. It stayed true to the show right up to the very end and that's pretty rare.

Also, while it might be a bit of a stretch, I'll throw it out there as well. In my signature, I'm directing my first feature in a few months and am running a Kickstarter to help make it happen. It's a film called "War Path' and I'm talking about it here only because Breaking Bad was a huge influence during the time I wrote it and many themes the show was based around have found their way into the film. Plus, my cast has a lot of Breaking Bad-esque looking people in it and would've killed to film the show in Albuquerque . It's in the signature but here as well:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1080834254/war-path-a-coming-of-age-crime-drama-feature-film

 

[Brother Jack]

The finale had emphasized that despite everything, despite all that happened, Walt in his heart is a family man first, not Heisenberg, even if he lost his way in the 5th season.

I don't quite agree with this. Walt was simultaneously a family man and a selfish bastard. A binary view of the character is, I think, reductive to the many layers to him that were shown throughout the series. These multiple facets were even on display in the final episode. Sure he tells Skylar that he did it all for himself, finally telling her the other side of the truth, but there's no real apology. No last hug and a sense that Walt felt truly penitent about ruining everyone's lives. Yes he gets his money to his family but the way in which he does it, torturing the Schwartz's, is horrendous and the nice consolation prize of 9 million can never fill the hole Walt left in his children's lives. The last scene underscores all this by having Walt die seemingly at peace in the place he loved the most, the meth lab. The literal thing he used to destroy his own life and reputation. There's no redemption there, no matter the score settling with the Nazis and the sparing of Jesse. That Walt dies satisfied is perhaps a final indictment of his character.

 

[Tyrell Wellick]

@ Parker Wayne

I disagree with you. Walter loved himself. Hi didnt really care about his family, he wanted them to celebrate his achievement as a meth kingpin. He wanted them to respect him, to understand why he did all these things. Walter could have stopped meth cooking a long time ago, but he didnt because he was selfish. It wasnt all about securing money for the family. It was about a person who was not able to live up to his potential most of his life and in the end he wanted everything at the same time. Without considering the consequences.

Ozymandias has showed us that perfectly, even in the most shocking moment, he still lied to Skyler and Walter jr. Everyone talks about Walter trying to save Hank. He knew that as soon as Hank dies, it's over for him, no coming back for him. The empire is gone.

 

[Brain Damage]

I don't quite agree with this. Walt was simultaneously a family man and a selfish bastard. A binary view of the character is, I think, reductive to the many layers to him that were shown throughout the series. These multiple facets were even on display in the final episode. Sure he tells Skylar that he did it all for himself, finally telling her the other side of the truth, but there's no real apology. No last hug and a sense that Walt felt truly penitent about ruining everyone's lives. Yes he gets his money to his family but the way in which he does it, torturing the Schwartz's, is horrendous and the nice consolation prize of 9 million can never fill the hole Walt left in his children's lives. The last scene underscores all this by having Walt die seemingly at peace in the place he loved the most, the meth lab. The literal thing he used to destroy his own life and reputation. There's no redemption there, no matter the score settling with the Nazis and the sparing of Jesse. That Walt dies satisfied is perhaps a final indictment of his character.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I don't quite agree with this. Walt was simultaneously a family man and a selfish bastard. A binary view of the character is, I think, reductive to the many layers to him that were shown throughout the series. These multiple facets were even on display in the final episode. Sure he tells Skylar that he did it all for himself, finally telling her the other side of the truth, but there's no real apology. No last hug and a sense that Walt felt truly penitent about ruining everyone's lives. Yes he gets his money to his family but the way in which he does it, torturing the Schwartz's, is horrendous and the nice consolation prize of 9 million can never fill the hole Walt left in his children's lives. The last scene underscores all this by having Walt die seemingly at peace in the place he loved the most, the meth lab. The literal thing he used to destroy his own life and reputation. There's no redemption there, no matter the score settling with the Nazis and the sparing of Jesse. That Walt dies satisfied is perhaps a final indictment of his character.

I'll have to agree with you there. I probably went too far in my post about trying to present Walt as strictly a family man in order to show that the finale makes a lot of sense. I personally think the finale wear a fitting and near perfect end for the story of Walter White.

@ Parker Wayne

I disagree with you. Walter loved himself. Hi didnt really care about his family, he wanted them to celebrate his achievement as a meth kingpin. He wanted them to respect him, to understand why he did all these things. Walter could have stopped meth cooking a long time ago, but he didnt because he was selfish. It wasnt all about securing money for the family. It was about a person who was not able to live up to his potential most of his life and in the end he wanted everything at the same time. Without considering the consequences.

Ozymandias has showed us that perfectly, even in the most shocking moment, he still lied to Skyler and Walter jr. Everyone talks about Walter trying to save Hank. He knew that as soon as Hank dies, it's over for him, no coming back for him. The empire is gone.

I disagree that Walt did not care for his family and my last post said it all, especially given the fact that Walt had given up the meth business for his family before Hank found out he was Heisenberg. I'll add another thing. When he goes to stroke Holly's head and saw Walter Jr for the last time, does that sound like a man who doesn't care for his family.

I think both of us are under about the other aspect of Walt's character. I undermined the darker aspects of his character in my post, you've undermined the family man aspects of his character.

He also lied because he thought there was an outside chance he would still be with his family.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ozymandias was the episode that where he pays the full price. The guy witnesses his brother-in-law who despite being on opposite sides always tried to protect, loses most his money, and his family for the most part wants nothing to do with them.

The guy may have liked meth, and liked being Heisenberg, but he loves his family more. It may not have always shown, because he kept convincing himself he had to be Heisenberg in order to provide what's best for his family, when in truth he continued because he liked it. He wanted his cake and wanted to eat it to by providing for his family and cooking meth (though in 5th season Skyler finally got tired of it). But even at his worse as Heisenberg, he loved his family, and as the beginning of Ozymandias shown, he would have done anything to keep them out of harm.

It's why when Skyler shown him how much money he had, he realized he didn't have to be Heisenberg, especially when at the time, he didn't think he had any loose ends. It's why in Ozymandias, he tries to Skyler off the hook. It's the whole reason why he came back was to keep his family protected.

It's the reason why Walter White is a character who's fans opinions of him is so divded. Most of his reasoning for doing the worst things (Letting Jane die to get Jesse off Heroin, Poisoning Brock in a Batman Gambit to save his family, killing 10 witness because he hated lose-ends though he probably could have just continued paying them) was for his warped version of the better good.

The finale had emphasized that despite everything, despite all that happened, Walt in his heart is a family man first, not Heisenberg, even if he lost his way in the 5th season.

While I don't disagree with how you characterize the finale here, I kind of do disagree on how essential it ultimately was in the end. I think most of this was spoken through his actions, shown to us, throughout the series. I don't think the finale painting this for us so bluntly was needed, even if it made it more...finalized?