Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[Teelie]

Vile, you are literally on social media right now.

Why are you conflating public support of others, with telling one's story of abuse, they may or may not exist?

This is a bit off topic but it still applie to the grander problem with Social Media and how differently Fisher or Carpenter would be treated here as opposed to Twitter.

There is social media (Hype forums and similar message boards) and then there is Social Media (Twitter, Facebook mainly) which are two different animals. These places are moderated. You can't post just whatever you want here, insulting others, posting porn, making offensive, racist comments and get away with it. Facebook and Twitter? Unless you are just too openly abusive (and even then) their "moderation" is a joke and you can pretty much say what you want and no one is going to come down on you for it.

Fisher should definitely be believed. I believed him when he came out, especially since by that point some previous stories about Whedon had already come out but Fisher was also too vague and basically said "Whedon was an ******* on set" but nothing beyond that. Carpenter did tell us a little of what went on, she gave us more than just what could be dismissed as a conflict of personality which to be fair is often just code for "that guy is an *******".

All that being said, I despise Twitter and barely tolerate Facebook because of how lacking their moderation is. Fisher is a black man on Twitter. That alone is hard enough to do but then he goes after a pillar of geekdom and gets the anticipated ****storm of awful that comes with it and no one at Twitter is going to do anything to help him weather it. Twitter is the cesspool of social media and why people think it's so great is beyond me. I avoid Twitter because it has such a toxic user base and nothing is going to change that. Not when they consistently fail to even uphold their own rules.

 

[TheFuture]

This is a bit off topic but it still applie to the grander problem with Social Media and how differently Fisher or Carpenter would be treated here as opposed to Twitter.

There is social media (Hype forums and similar message boards) and then there is Social Media (Twitter, Facebook mainly) which are two different animals. These places are moderated. You can't post just whatever you want here, insulting others, posting porn, making offensive, racist comments and get away with it. Facebook and Twitter? Unless you are just too openly abusive (and even then) their "moderation" is a joke and you can pretty much say what you want and no one is going to come down on you for it.

Fisher should definitely be believed. I believed him when he came out, especially since by that point some previous stories about Whedon had already come out but Fisher was also too vague and basically said "Whedon was an ******* on set" but nothing beyond that. Carpenter did tell us a little of what went on, she gave us more than just what could be dismissed as a conflict of personality which to be fair is often just code for "that guy is an *******".

All that being said, I despise Twitter and barely tolerate Facebook because of how lacking their moderation is. Fisher is a black man on Twitter. That alone is hard enough to do but then he goes after a pillar of geekdom and gets the anticipated ****storm of awful that comes with it and no one at Twitter is going to do anything to help him weather it. Twitter is the cesspool of social media and why people think it's so great is beyond me. I avoid Twitter because it has such a toxic user base and nothing is going to change that. Not when they consistently fail to even uphold their own rules.

It's funny, "casually cruel" is a phrase that I feel fits the likes of Twitter perfectly. Sure you have the crazies that are easy to see on social media, but there is another layer there where people take something innocuous and use it to put people down. I just have to keep reminding myself that this isn't how normal people talk to each other.

Anyway is it just me or is anyone else looking back now on the storylines, now we know what we know about Joss, and scrutinising them through a new lens? Cordelia's character assassination was not necessary and we've always known this, but then I look at Spike's attempted rape and Tara's death. The former in particular was so awfully framed and mean spirited, from Buffy's rejection of Spike to Spike's pitiful assault.

I always felt that Joss' approach to misery and death, for which he was praised, had a more sinister undertone and was the work of a deeply unsettled person. In fact I'm sure there is a popular quote from Joss himself that is along the lines of Buffy wouldn't have been possible had he experienced one normal day in his childhood/young adulthood. To me the guy wasn't always writing with a clear head and now afterall this fallout I'm only convinced further.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I dont look at most of those storylines as coming from a place of spite to the characters but it is easier to see that Joss's needing of asserting his power over his characters and perhaps bits of his inner torment coming through. He wasnt happy so no one can be happy.

Not to mention that Marti Noxon had a part to play in Taras death and thus far she hasnt put it all on Whedon but it is something she would've changed.

 

[henzINNIT]

Marti Noxon is a curious role in this whole situation. She caught a lot of flack from fans it seems, even claiming to have 'ruined' Buffy on her twitter bio. Unjust, obviously. Regardless, Noxon was promoted for season 6, and it seems to have been an ugly time on and off camera. I figured she'd have more to say about this, considering what she has written about toxic show-runners in the past. Look at what she said about a different, abusive show-runner she's worked with:

He is devilishly clever and witty, but he is also, in the words of one of his colleagues, an "emotional terrorist" who will badger, seduce and even tantrum in an attempt to get his needs met. This personality type cannot help but create an atmosphere where everyone is constantly off guard and unsure where they stand.

Doesn't that sound familiar. I don't know what it means that Noxon hasn't made similar claims about Whedon. Perhaps he was not as bad, perhaps his brand was stronger and harder to speak out against. I guess we could well hear more to come.

It's funny, "casually cruel" is a phrase that I feel fits the likes of Twitter perfectly. Sure you have the crazies that are easy to see on social media, but there is another layer there where people take something innocuous and use it to put people down. I just have to keep reminding myself that this isn't how normal people talk to each other.

Anyway is it just me or is anyone else looking back now on the storylines, now we know what we know about Joss, and scrutinising them through a new lens? Cordelia's character assassination was not necessary and we've always known this, but then I look at Spike's attempted rape and Tara's death. The former in particular was so awfully framed and mean spirited, from Buffy's rejection of Spike to Spike's pitiful assault.

I always felt that Joss' approach to misery and death, for which he was praised, had a more sinister undertone and was the work of a deeply unsettled person. In fact I'm sure there is a popular quote from Joss himself that is along the lines of Buffy wouldn't have been possible had he experienced one normal day in his childhood/young adulthood. To me the guy wasn't always writing with a clear head and now afterall this fallout I'm only convinced further.

Honestly this whole situation has only strengthened my views on the shows' more questionable moments. Like what happened with Cordy, there are a bunch of things about Buffy season 6 that I thoroughly dislike. The whole season is 'casually cruel' to its characters, you could say.

 

[Sithborg]

I really liked the After the Fall comics, and was quite annoyed when Whedon wanted to ignore them for... Season 8....

 

[henzINNIT]

I really liked the After the Fall comics, and was quite annoyed when Whedon wanted to ignore them for... Season 8....

I too liked After The Fall. Still have the hardcovers for it. Did he ignore them for Season 8? I only read about 30 issues of that before dropping off, too bonkers and scattershot. I enjoyed issue 20 where it was basically the scrapped animated series for an issue. Written by Jeph Loeb, oh yeah, another scummy TV producer. I'm sensing a pattern.

 

[SiegePerilous]

Because what Ray Fisher has said and done and what Charisma Carpenter has said and done are not the same at all. Fisher invited skepticism with frequent communication of no substance and Carpenter was appropriately concise and candid. The level of support they received and speed it came to them are direct results of this approach.

To this day Fisher still hasn't made allegations that clear despite talking about it for months. Last tweet was less than a day ago and he used his platform to brag that he still hasn't been sued, despite it being plain as day he hasn't said a lawsuit's worth yet. I believe the evidence is in his favour here, but the guy has made it very easy to criticize.

I feel like Carpenter's statements have lent more credence to Fisher's claims. His campaign was wrapped up entirely in the Snyder Cut stuff, so we couldn't tell what his motivation really was. He rarely released any solid details, the first solid accusation of racism in the editing room was immediately shot down, and he contradicted himself a few times by starting against Whedon and then shifting to Johns and Hamada (and I guess Hamada wasn't even around at that point), then back to Whedon. Carpenter has no horse in that race, and her poor treatment had been the elephant in the room at fandom conventions for years.

So another project having similar issues makes Fisher's claims more believable. But is he legit, or did he strike gold accidentally and got lucky? Is he doing it because it was right or is doing it out of a bruised ego/attention? Or some combo of all the above? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[batdude]

Yeah Fisher needs more details to be more believeable. He Might be telling the truth or he might be just a slimeball who ran into a bigger slimeball. The one I feel sorry for is Charisma Carpenter.

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, Whedon got fired from his show. I think we can figure out what the investigation found out.

 

[TheFuture]

One of the singers in the Bronze said on Instagram she witnessed some dodgy behaviour from Whedon towards Eliza when she was technically still a teenager. What age was Eliza when she started?

I get that people are having a hard time believing Ray Fisher, but when he came forward he wasn't aware Whedon had history. It gets to a point where you have to accept maybe there is truth to what the guy is saying.

 

[Dr.]

...Anyway is it just me or is anyone else looking back now on the storylines, now we know what we know about Joss, and scrutinising them through a new lens?

...I always felt that Joss' approach to misery and death, for which he was praised, had a more sinister undertone...

Rewatching Buffy for the nth time, a nerdy trivia question occurred to me:

How many of Buffy’s friends and allies have died during the course of the series? Of course, many innocent high schoolers and citizens of Sunnydale became demon fodder. But more specifically, I was wondering about the death count of recurring “good guys” who were either in, or associated with, the Scooby gang. I came up with a quick list. But then I noticed something curious. All the unfortunate victims were female.

I admit, my first thought was to assume a sub-textual connotation. I.e., for all its progressive, female empowerment motifs, Buffy had a bias towards “punishing” women.

To be sure, mere coincidence is also a possible explanation. Since Buffy is female-centric, it was just statistically more likely that when a dramatic death was required, a woman would fall victim. Alternatively, I was forgetting or ignoring the male allies who also got croaked. (But, honestly, I had trouble thinking of any.)

Thoughts? Rebuttals? I’m certainly not married to the subtext theory.

 

[henzINNIT]

Yeah all significant male characters tend to survive their exits from the show. The ladies? Not so much. An interesting pattern, possibly circumstantial, there were a lot of prominent female characters, and a lot of characters from each gender that died. Also possibly a direct indicator of women that Whedon 'fell out' with.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

It's funny, "casually cruel" is a phrase that I feel fits the likes of Twitter perfectly. Sure you have the crazies that are easy to see on social media, but there is another layer there where people take something innocuous and use it to put people down. I just have to keep reminding myself that this isn't how normal people talk to each other.

Anyway is it just me or is anyone else looking back now on the storylines, now we know what we know about Joss, and scrutinising them through a new lens? Cordelia's character assassination was not necessary and we've always known this, but then I look at Spike's attempted rape and Tara's death. The former in particular was so awfully framed and mean spirited, from Buffy's rejection of Spike to Spike's pitiful assault.

I always felt that Joss' approach to misery and death, for which he was praised, had a more sinister undertone and was the work of a deeply unsettled person. In fact I'm sure there is a popular quote from Joss himself that is along the lines of Buffy wouldn't have been possible had he experienced one normal day in his childhood/young adulthood. To me the guy wasn't always writing with a clear head and now afterall this fallout I'm only convinced further.

Nope, you’re not the only one. All of it is so suspect to me and actually makes a lot of sense considering what we know about Joss now.

Things like the writing for Dawn in season 6, how Anya got killed in the last episode and even how she basically was just regulated as a background character all of the last season makes sense.

 

[Primal Slayer]

One of the singers in the Bronze said on Instagram she witnessed some dodgy behaviour from Whedon towards Eliza when she was technically still a teenager. What age was Eliza when she started?

I get that people are having a hard time believing Ray Fisher, but when he came forward he wasn't aware Whedon had history. It gets to a point where you have to accept maybe there is truth to what the guy is saying.

I believed that Joss was an acehole on JL, it was some hearsay things that i don't believe. As far as Eliza, she was 19/20 when she was on the show. Perhaps she hasn't chosen to reveal anything but by her statement it seems like nothing ever happened and her relationship with Joss has been a good one.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Nope, you’re not the only one. All of it is so suspect to me and actually makes a lot of sense considering what we know about Joss now.

Things like the writing for Dawn in season 6, how Anya got killed in the last episode and even how she basically was just regulated as a background character all of the last season makes sense.

I think some may get to the point of over analyzing. Marti Noxon was the primary showrunner in S6 and Joss had the least amount of influence during that season.

Emma Caufield also requested

Spoiler

to be killed off if my memory serves correctly.

as she was over the show.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I think some may get to the point of over analyzing. Marti Noxon was the primary showrunner in S6 and Joss had the least amount of influence during that season.

Emma Caufield also requested

Spoiler

to be killed off if my memory serves correctly.

as she was over the show.

True she was the primary showrunner, but I'm sure whatever stories still at had to be filtered through Joss, and undoubtedly you know he would make alterations or give direction to his team of writers.

And Emma Caulfield probably wanted that because she was sick of the toxic work environment. I remember Alyson Hannigan saying on a talk show before that SMG wanted out since season 3. Makes you wonder.

 

[Primal Slayer]

True she was the primary showrunner, but I'm sure whatever stories still at had to be filtered through Joss, and undoubtedly you know he would make alterations or give direction to his team of writers.

And Emma Caulfield probably wanted that because she was sick of the toxic work environment. I remember Alyson Hannigan saying on a talk show before that SMG wanted out since season 3. Makes you wonder.

All possible but i think trying to equate everything to bts is a bit much. SMG had a blossoming movie career that she had to miss out on and David wasn't around anymore. But she seemed fine through s5.

 

[henzINNIT]

And Emma Caulfield probably wanted that because she was sick of the toxic work environment.

I'd wager there's some truth to that. As I recall there were disputes about her status as a regular, and she wanted her character to die in case the show continued. There's been so many rumours over the years that I'm probably mistaken.

One new story I saw elsewhere is that Alyson Hannigan is basically 'casual cruelty' incarnate, and a source of much of the bullying behind the scenes, including being mean to Amber Benson. That one is new to me, though the storyteller insisted the rumour was as old as the Charisma Carpenter stories.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I'd wager there's some truth to that. As I recall there were disputes about her status as a regular, and she wanted her character to die in case the show continued. There's been so many rumours over the years that I'm probably mistaken.

One new story I saw elsewhere is that Alyson Hannigan is basically 'casual cruelty' incarnate, and a source of much of the bullying behind the scenes, including being mean to Amber Benson. That one is new to me, though the storyteller insisted the rumour was as old as the Charisma Carpenter stories.

I can so see that. I remember years ago on one of the Buffy boards they were saying that Alyson Hannigan got a bit of the big head from those American Pie movies. But being mean to Amber Benson? That's wild. Especially since they had so much chemistry with each other.

Now I gotta watch the EW Buffy Reunion again and look at the body language lol.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I'd wager there's some truth to that. As I recall there were disputes about her status as a regular, and she wanted her character to die in case the show continued. There's been so many rumours over the years that I'm probably mistaken.

One new story I saw elsewhere is that Alyson Hannigan is basically 'casual cruelty' incarnate, and a source of much of the bullying behind the scenes, including being mean to Amber Benson. That one is new to me, though the storyteller insisted the rumour was as old as the Charisma Carpenter stories.

What kind disputes could there be about her status as a series regular? They consistently wrote for her and like many actors, she was tired of Anya after 4 years.

Feels like people are in full rumor mill now lol. Amber/Alyson both follow each other, I dont remember any discord between them like there was with SMG/Alyson.

 

[henzINNIT]

What kind disputes could there be about her status as a series regular? They consistently wrote for her and like many actors, she was tired of Anya after 4 years.

IIRC it was a network thing, they basically didn't wanna pay her as a regular anymore after Anya became less prevalent. Can't find anything too concrete about it now.

Emma had made it clear that she really was not interested in coming back. I think things with Fox weren't great and she felt ill-used — not by the show. She had a good time making the show, I think. But she was ready to move on.

I asked Joss to kill Anya. It was a pretty sure thing that we weren’t going to go past Season 7, but there was an opportunity that we could.

The Alyson Hannigan stuff sounds very fan-fic, but I did cock an eyebrow to this quote in the same interview as above:

Alyson liked to play practical jokes a lot. They were really funny when they didn’t happen to you... It was my birthday and I was turning 26, and she thought it would be so funny if everyone thought I was turning 30. She went and got big banners, and she had them planted all over. Even the cake said, ‘Happy 30th Birthday’. She had baskets full of Depends and hemorrhoid creams. I’m like, ‘I’m not turning 30,’ and everyone is like, ‘okay’, “I’m not even sure if they believed me months after. She had a really good laugh at that one. It is funny in retrospect.”

 

[batdude]

I do feel like Alyson Hannigan is being nailed somewhat for being at this point the biggest name not to say anything.

 

[DarkKnight88]

The Alyson Hannigan stuff sounds very fan-fic, but I did cock an eyebrow to this quote in the same interview as above:

Sounds like a George Clooney style practical joke.

 

[TheVileOne]

If someone has legit allegations against Hannigan, then fine, but this is sort of the thing I mean. People are attacking Hannigan for not saying anything. Like she has something to hide. IMHO that's wrong and unfair.

 

[TheFuture]

If someone has legit allegations against Hannigan, then fine, but this is sort of the thing I mean. People are attacking Hannigan for not saying anything. Like she has something to hide. IMHO that's wrong and unfair.

Welcome to social media. On the one hand it's a force for good. On the other hand it's a force for crap like this.

I really think in 10 years time, maybe even 5, there's going to be a serious review of how social media has warped our scope for individual thought. There's going to be a time where it facilitates one witch hunt too far.