BvS BvS Rottentomatoes score - how important will it be, and what do you hope for? - Part 4

[Angel0fDeath]

 

[Sleiek]

OKAY GUYS,

I just saw it. To be honest, I'm baffled, baffled by the critical reaction. Now, I'm not gonna lie, I love Man Of Steel because it just clicks with me on every level, the way it makes me feel, no other superhero film has made me feel that way, I really work on an emotional level with movies.

Spoiler

NOW, the tone, I don't understand the problem, I really don't and I'm not being this way because I didn't agree with the reviews before seeing it and don't even more now. Is it dark? yes, is it brooding? no, not really, is it comically dark as in: is it trying too hard? f no, it's not.

The tone is fine, it's a DC film, it's not being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic, it's not Snyder trying to be a big boy, I never felt that for one second.

It's not totally gloomy and dull, and drab, and whatever, and I love Marvel films as well, the DC tone is just more to my liking. I feel like I haven't seen the same movie here.

Is this Batman dark? Oh yeah, hell yeah, is he going to be controversial? I guess, but I don't think saying that Snyder doesn't get Batman and missed the core of the character is right, Batman has killed before, there's not one version of Batman out there, there's multiple interpretations of the character. Just because yours favorite interpretation isn't this one, that doesn't make it wrong and a misunderstanding of Batman/Bruce Wayne.

I honestly didn't even think about it,

Spoiler

in that great car chase scene, he just wrecks fools, and you know there's no way the guys are alive

It didn't bother me for one second, this Batman is ruthless, he is NOT sadistic though, I do not feel that at all, the context here, with the numerous losses he's suffered, it makes sense, he just does what he has to do, that's how I see it.

Ben Affleck is really really great, best Bruce Wayne/Batman, best part of the film, I think at least on this point, most of the fans will agree, he's a more complicated guy here imo, the relationship with Alfred is on point as well. I can't wait for them to explore the character further.

The editing? That's where the extended version will WITHOUT A DOUBT even better. I love the opening, it's a sort of montage, really well done, typical Zack, I however had issues with the following 30 to 40 minutes I'd say.

The film is incredibly dense, there are multiple plots and subplots introduced, a lot of information, it moves very fast (just in the first act mind you), there's a lot of information being given, and I have no doubt that the extra 30 minutes we'll get will make it a lot smoother because you can tell that's where most of the material seems to come from.

It took me a bit to get into it, and I know exactly the scene when it all clicked for me and the film literally took on another dimension imo: without spoiling: the courtroom scene, those who saw the movie know what I'm talking about.

After that, I was just completely in, weirdly, the movie itself to me seemed to become its true self, and that's where it all came together, what I loved was how emotional it all was, in the same vein as MOS was.

The character motivations all make sense to me, the script is a fine piece of work, Lex, oh god, I love Jesse in the role (I'm a big fan of his), some say he's over the top, yeah sure, but he fits for me, his plan and his motivations were to me one of the big pluses.

Henry is excellent once again, Lois was much more present than I expected and I love that. The third act is GREAT imo, the Bats vs Supes fight delivers, and I just loved its resolution. The final fight is excellent too, I thought the CG on youknowwho was actually damn good, so i don't know why Poni_Boy thought it was bad, it surprised me in a good way.

Wonder Woman is seriously badass, can't wait to see more of her, Gal did an excellent job. The ending is so beautiful, but I won't spoil it.


All in all, a solid 8, to 8.5/10 for now, but I got to think about it, I have no doubt the extended version will take it to a 9 and possibly higher. Oh and the easter eggs? AWESOME, the Justice League stuff I felt was really organically woven in

.

Thanks Tim, People like you are still keeping the hope alive for a little bit of light. I am excited to see the movie. Friday morning can't come soon enough, to wash out all the stuff that is happening right now.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I have NEVER talked about any kind of conspiracy. Don't put my words in my mouth. The movie needs some love on here, I know some of you are loving the negativity, but it's allowed to do the opposite.

You have been using the sophistication line since yesterday, saying critics aren't receptive to it. Vaguely hiding behind that to basically say they don't like it because it isn't like Marvel. Not that you don't like Marvel movies, but using it as a stick to beat the critics with. As if none of these people have sat through a Kurbrick or Coens brothers movie. As if they couldn't watch Bergman.

 

[Baba3231]

The 118k includes those that voted on the want to see percentage. The audience score there now only includes the scores that are now starting to surface. So it's as valid as any rt audience score.

 

[Tra-El]

I'm tried of people using Marvel/Disney as an excuse for why critics don't like this. Maybe they didn't like it, because it's not a good movie.

And the only people who happen to like it must be offended and bias.

The end.t:

 

[king666]

Faora is indisputably one of THE highlights of MoS.

Faora is barely a character. She looks badass, but that's it.

 

[xxxxxx29]

Superman Returns is even lucky to have that 61% audience score.

 

[Poni_Boy]

I personally don't think that movie felt adult oriented at all. Plot very simple and predictable, a lot of cartoonish action, juvenile jokes...yeah, it felt like a cartoon with f bombs.

TDK, without the F bombs, managed to feel a lot more adult than Deadpool. And to be honest, a lot more violent.

You can feel that way all you want (you're 100% wrong about the violence and you obviously know that) but the majority of fans and the majority of the GA who saw it feel differently. Somebody asked the other day who is "right" and "wrong." In terms of movies, the majority is right. They paid with their wallets. That's who the studios listen to.

 

[Hellrider]

I'm late to the Watchmen OTT party; but there were just a few moments that Zack did not get at all, and a massive part of that was his portrayal of Adrien Veidt. Now I don't know how much of it was Goode's idea, but at the end of the day, Zack has final approval of what goes on film. He fought hard for the big things, like

Spoiler

Rorscach dying, getting an R-Rating, making Veidt win, etc

But he missed the little things, and somethings were put in there just for fan service. Now as a fan of the comic, I don't mind Bubatis being in the film, but she had no reason to be in there and stuck out like a sore thumb. Also making Veidt a bond superhero villain and making him almost super powered was clearly Zack missing the point.

I love the film, and I will cherish the ultimate cut forever, but it's an alienating film and it is also does a lot of the major things right but a lot of the little and very doable things wrong. And a great director sees the details. He also should have fought harder for Malcolm Longs story, because that is a little thing that has a massive heart in the story of the comic.

Now as for the BvS film. I'm not surprised that a production that has been divisive since they first announced the cast for the film ends up being a divisive in its final product. I didn't mind Affleck much; but I hated Gadot's and Eisenberg's casting. And I'll go in with an open mind, but I've never liked anything I've seen from Eisenberg, however the Ballroom scene with Bruce made me a little more open to Gadot but we'll see. Eisenberg is massively miscast to me; I love Luthor, he's an intimidating, strong and charming presence, and it's disappointing that they picked someone who doesn't have the acting chops to bring that presence to film.

I like Zack as a director, the man knows his visuals and he is probably the best in the industry at that. And with the exception of Sucker Punch, I've enjoyed all his films, even Man of Steel. But it's the little things that he misses. Film is a visual medium, but in the end it is a storytelling medium. It's not like painting or photography where beauty is enough to get you by; you have to be able to tell a compelling story. And a compelling story is as much in the details as it is in the whole of the story itself. The first story he actual writes is cluster**** of a story about girls fighting samurais, nazis and robo ninjas from an insane asylum. And i use his story as a gateway to how he approaches story telling, because when a director adapts another persons screenplay he is essentially re-writing to film. He likes epic and "cool" cinematics, that's just who he is.

I'll go into BvS with open mind. I liked Man of Steel. I don't know if I'll like BvS, I want to love it, but we'll see.

 

[Kobra]

Deadpool was a success because of the love put into the movie by people who respected the source material. It's not a perfect film by any means, but it's carried by the charisma of its lead. It's the polar opposite of a film like say MoS.

So what? If i'm a casual viewer and i'm looking for a great movie to watch i might be very easily deceived by the ratings this movie has. It's a nice pop corn flick to watch if you don't wanna have to think too much about what you're seeing. The point is: Low expectations are my friend. People rave very easily about certain types of movies. This movie is so great but absolutely failed to grab my attention through great storytelling. It's just simplistic and predictable. Nice if you just wanna see things exploding and dirty jokes. But to me there's more to filmmaking than that. Story is king, and ultimately, deadpool doesn't tell a great story. Not to me.

 

[JtheDreamer]

The 118k includes those that voted on the want to see percentage. The audience score there now only includes the scores that are now starting to surface. So it's as valid as any rt audience score.

There is NO WAY 118,000 people have seen it yet. I mean c'mon .

 

[sabrecmc]

That is an inaccurate analogy for people's issues with Snyder's interpretation of these characters. The problem is, Snyder's take on these characters are grossly inconsistent with the iconography which inspires them. There is nothing wrong with a dark, gritty, joyless, mature superhero movie if in fact the character is a dark, gritty, joyless, mature character. With the huge success of Nolan's Batman films and Netflix's Daredevil, that is a tone which is very in vogue right now. The problem being, that is a tone which is analogous with those characters and is backed up by their decades of source material; but there is great fault when applying that trending tone to characters where it should not be applied because it is incongruous with the traits which have defined said character, i.e. Superman. Superman's most defining character traits are his optimistic ability to avail himself of good natured hope and inspiration as much as he does his feats of super strengths and powers. Yet Snyder's interpretation of Superman completely squanders, or outright ignores, these traits; which in turn bastardizes the character. Simply put, Snyder does not understand the Superman character, and therefore has no place being involved with these films.

This. 100%. Snyder seems to want to give us a "grown up" Superman by taking away what makes him extraordinary. Not his powers, but his heart and humanity. (and also, I don't think Cavill is a particularly great actor, so there's that...)

 

[Tra-El]

I was the guy on the OPPOSITE END OF THE SPECTRUM during those Superman Returns days. God, disappointment isn't even a strong enough word to tell you how much I loathed that movie. I know what it's like to be on the other side (loved Man of Steel.)

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I agree with the audience for SR and MOS.

I haven't seen BvS yet.

 

[Matt]

It kind of makes you kind of wonder what's the end game here. Will JLA be dark and dour as well? Will Aquaman? WW? Will these films be grim treatises on the sad state of mankind and our world?

That is a good question. Honestly, I don't think that Warners knows. This reflects a larger problem with the DCEU. Look at the trailer for Suicide Squad. Then compare it to BvS. Despite sharing a universe, these films look like apples and oranges. Although they need not be identical, the films should share themes, tones, etc as they are all interconnected. Antman could not be more different from Thor in terms of plot and characters, but the two are at least cut of the same cloth. How does Warners accomplish this? Do they make all of their comic properties downers? Do they create films that are in no way tonally or thematically similar and then just attempt to squish them together in JL (which would certainly be a bit jarring for the audience). Warners never stopped to ask these questions and as a result they are up **** creek when it comes to DCEU.

I agree about Snyder, he is clearly trying to convey some "important" philosophical message through these stories. He seems to have something to say about God vs Man, who should decide your destiny, who should wield power and who should not. That whole line Lex kept saying about "oldest lie in told in American history", and relating it to how good people cannot be powerful or powerful people cannot be good. I don't know if the 9/11 themes are still playing into this or not, I don't know what Snyder's politics are, I just know it doesn't work for a Superman film, at least not the way he's telling it.

I don't think Snyder knows what he is trying to say. He wants to say something but doesn't know what that something is. He is a 13 year old kid who tries to talk about politics or philosophy. Yes, they may know terms like "social contract" and "relativism" but they have no real understanding or appreciation for those terms. Therefore anything that they say comes off as inarticulate, clumsy, and void of meaning. That is Snyder's films in a nut shell.

 

[The Riddler]

superman returns is awful in almost every way, imo. i don't know anyone who likes that movie.

 

[SM71]

It always bothers me when Marvel movies are dismissively regarded as popcorn films (which in and of itself I don't have a problem with that opinion), but then in the same breathe regard the DC films as "high art". Man of Steel and BvS are four-quadrant popcorn films meant to kick-start huge franchises. That's the textbook defintion of a popcorn film no matter how "dark" and "sophisticated" Snyder and co. want to dress it up.

popcorn films generally have no brain, just are light-hearted fun and action. Have no serious character study, no deep psychological and philosophical examination into human nature and experience. That's exactly what Marvel movies are? Maybe that's why people call them that. These movies at the very least, attempt to do more than that, and I feel like succeed (MoS did for me at least anyway)

 

[BMCAABY]

That is an inaccurate analogy for people's issues with Snyder's interpretation of these characters. The problem is, Snyder's take on these characters are grossly inconsistent with the iconography which inspires them. There is nothing wrong with a dark, gritty, joyless, mature superhero movie if in fact the character is a dark, gritty, joyless, mature character. With the huge success of Nolan's Batman films and Netflix's Daredevil, that is a tone which is very in vogue right now. The problem being, that is a tone which is analogous with those characters and is backed up by their decades of source material; but there is great fault though when applying that trending tone to characters where it should not be applied because it is incongruous with the traits which have defined said character, i.e. Superman. Superman's most defining character traits are his optimistic ability to avail himself of good natured hope and inspiration as much as he does his feats of super strengths and powers. Yet Snyder's interpretation of Superman completely bastardizes these traits, which in turn bastardizes the character.

That is no logical reason to criticize a movie. Its not a fictional character that can be intrepreted in many ways. The way Snyder has approached them is quite identical to the comics. I am probably going to get hated on for saying this, but Reeves Superman was actually too campy and ridiculous. I think it is overrated and for that time period it worked.

It is not something that still works without being outdated in upcoming years. Sure the protrayal may be considered as iconic as many grew up with it but those mocies were ridiculous. That time period was ridiculous. Superman III was the only one people noticed as being too ridiculous.

I think Zack's intrepretations are not the problem but the storytelling is.

 

[Tra-El]

superman returns is awful in almost every way, imo. i don't know anyone who likes that movie.

For craps and giggles, I went to check out a RT critic snippet review of SR. He said "This is the best action movie this summer will have to offer."

Lol, action.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I prefer MoS, but I enjoyed Liftman as well. Sue me.

 

[king666]

The 13 years old art student is a good analogy.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Superman Returns is even lucky to have that 61% audience score.

I can pretty much guarantee if Superman Returns had come out post Avengers/DKT it would have been wrecked by critics. The genre evolves and becomes more critical of itself as it moves forward. Which is why people can and should be more critical of BvS than MOS even. As better movies come out, the bar gets raised.

 

[BMCAABY]

That is a good question. Honestly, I don't think that Warners knows. This reflects a larger problem with the DCEU. Look at the trailer for Suicide Squad. Then compare it to BvS. Despite sharing a universe, these films look like apples and oranges. Although they need not be identical, the films should share themes, tones, etc as they are all interconnected. Antman could not be more different from Thor in terms of plot and characters, but the two are at least cut of the same cloth. How does Warners accomplish this? Do they make all of their comic properties downers? Do they create films that are in no way tonally or thematically similar and then just attempt to squish them together in JL (which would certainly be a bit jarring for the audience). Warners never stopped to ask these questions and as a result they are up **** creek when it comes to DCEU.



I don't think Snyder knows what he is trying to say. He wants to say something but doesn't know what that something is. He is a 13 year old kid who tries to talk about politics or philosophy. Yes, they may know terms like "social contract" and "relativism" but they have no real understanding or appreciation for those terms. Therefore anything that they say comes off as inarticulate, clumsy, and void of meaning. That is Snyder's films in a nut shell.

Age of ultron doesn't fit in with Ant Man. Or any of the netflix shows.
Deadpool doesnt fit in with Xmen

the conmectivity should be in reprising characters and overall continuity in events.
The films can be different as their plots will be different.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I do love that people are using IMDB and the RT audience scores, which are clearly being voted on by fans who haven't even seen the movie yet.

 

[jokesonm3]

Warner Bros needs their own Kevin Feige to tell Snyder to stop making fanboy exclusive miserable films.