Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 26

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[Juan1193]

Why was there a glaring lack of Asian warriors in Themyscira?

There were Asians, it's just Black women tend to stick out more than Asian women do amongst White women therefore they were more noticeable.

 

[DACrowe]

Belated reply to Mjolnir:

I haven't seen many people saying that a movie isn't a superhero movie because of quality. It's more been because the superhero elements haven't added much to it. TDK is one of those for me so I agree with jmc that it could have been without Batman and worked just as well. There's not really anything superheroic about his Batman anyway. Wearing a Halloween costume doesn't cut it.

I think there's plenty in the genre that's better than TDK. It's very ambitious and I appreciate much of the work that went into it. Even things I don't think worked, like the idea of using a siren to accompany The Joker. Unfortunately it just doesn't work that well for me as it does for many others. I even ended up rooting for the Joker. Begins was a clearly better Batman movie in my eyes.

That rings false to me. Batman provides a mythic quality. He is what turns it from a gritty police drama epic--well him the Joker, and Harvey Dent not being dead in the third act--into something heightened and grander than reality. The movie is not so much realistic as it makes you believe the Batman could exist. And in that world it means a Depression, rampant organized crime, corruption, and an urban community on a knife's edge. Nolan takes those ideas and coats them in post-9/11 gasoline before having Heath Ledger light the match.

It's hypnotic, but it wouldn't work as a police story. Because Batman represents more than authority; he represents the ideals of a community as well as its contradiction. If he were just a vigilante cop, it loses something, just as if Joker were a rogue terrorist. The fact they take on the monikers of elements of American pop culture but are frighteningly real gives them a visceral quality that may otherwise be impossible to capture.

And Batman gets put through the grinder. Save for perhaps Logan in Logan, no superhero endures more in his story and none feels more operatic and imposing in his sacrifice and nobility. There is no snark, no self-aware smirk. There is plenty of humor, but an earnest severity that adds pathos to the proceedings and makes the journey the most profound and satisfying a superhero has ever taken in one of these films.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

There were Asians, it's just Black women tend to stick out more than Asian women do amongst White women therefore they were more noticeable.

They could've had speaking parts and been in high positions. As some of the black warriors did.

 

[DACrowe]

Ivan:

I thought the beach fight in WW when [blackout]Antiope dies[/blackout] was pretty cringe worthy.

Felt like I was watching a stage play.

The invaluable Mr. Tony Stark:

What is stunning to me is how outside Gadot and Pine, everyone else is just not interesting, except the little girl who played Diana, she was cute. Most of the Amazons were just nameless characters you don't care about, and even Hipolita and Antiope aren't all that interesting.

I will politely disagree with both these points. I think the action in Wonder Woman (barring the Ares fight) is better than anything Zack Snyder's done. While Patty used Zack's speed ramping and slow motion, she didn't overdo it to excessive effect. There also was a sense of geography and motion to her fight scenes, whereas Zack's can become very blurry and disorienting. Like a video game.

But the main point I was making is that Patty puts drama and emphasizes emotion in her action sequences. As she said herself, the No Man's Land scene isn't about how many bullets Wonder Woman deflects, it is about her defying the expectation of men and being who she is, and saving them all. In the process she takes on a godlike presence.

In the beach's case, it is about how fierce the Amazons are, but also how ugly war is. This is Diana's first glimpse of it, and it goes brutally. While the loss of Antiope is a bit redundant at this point in a franchise. Also say hi to Uncle Ben, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Yinsen, Uncle Ben again, Erskine, Thomas Wayne again, Jor-el, Martha Wayne again, Pa Kent, Jor-El once more, and Thomas and Martha Wayne yet again!

But the way it is done to illustrate the larger point of battle makes the fight sequence feel exhilarating and like it had stakes. It wasn't just to dazzle the audience. Consequences were felt. In so many of these superhero movies, things occur without stakes or consequence. It's just noise.

And speaking of Antiope, I reject the notion that only Gal and Chris gave good performances. Even with a few scenes, Robin Wright was terrific and really should have been in the movie more. Connie Nielsen was also strong. Hell, I think Elena Anaya was very good as Doctor Poison and gave the character way more depth and soul than what's on the page. I saw her inner-life in that sequence with Pine and then at the end when Diana is looking at her. Considering she is written as a throwaway villain, that's impressive.


****


... and my fair My fair Kane:

Every scene with her emoting was pretty terrible. She's only tolerable in that movie when she doesn't have any lines.

I see these claims and disagree to a large extent as well. Do I think Gal Gadot is a great actress? No. But I think between having Pine to play off of and Patty's direction, she is very good in this movie. While she's not quite as good as Christopher Reeve, it's quite similar in that she is a green and charismatic presence that gets by a lot on charm and an enthralling optimism. And I think other than a few stray lines (that i did notice) she completely sells me she is this character.

With that said, I do worry how she will do back in the hands of Snyder. He seems to want Wonder Woman to be a ruthless, monotone badass warrior killer, which is not Patty's characterization. Plus he seems to struggle with actors who do not just naturally bring their characters fully formed to the table.

 

[Ivan Drago]

DAcrowe you never actually refuted my point, despite quoting me.

[BLACKOUT]Antiope's death [/BLACKOUT]was very awkwardly handled, and it's something that stuck out to me.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think the DCEU are best sticking with Jenkins's characterisation of WW since hers is the one that has been mega successful and loved by everyone. Just think of Snyder's like a TV pilot or backdoor pilot where the characterisation is a little different from the series because they haven't settled on the version that captures the imagination of the audience.

Also on another note, anyone think the little mermaid might have some influence on Aquaman as well? Maybe they'll make Mera another Disney Princess type character so that DC end up having two of those to appeal to girls and Disney fans. It's funny how WB/DC have these types of comic characters whereas Disney/ Marvel don't.

 

[2kt09]

DAcrowe you never actually refuted my point, despite quoting me.

[BLACKOUT]Antiope's death [/BLACKOUT]was very awkwardly handled, and it's something that stuck out to me.

Defending a DCEU flick is pretty new territory for Crowe

 

[DACrowe]

DAcrowe you never actually refuted my point, despite quoting me.

[BLACKOUT]Antiope's death [/BLACKOUT]was very awkwardly handled, and it's something that stuck out to me.

Eh, I just disagree. I thought it added stakes to the scene and made the action scene mean something. Agree to disagree.

Defending a DCEU flick is pretty new territory for Crowe

Yes it is. It feels like I am behind enemy lines.

 

[2kt09]

Yes it is. It feels like I am behind enemy lines.

I assumed you would go into why the supporting cast was interesting. Just praised the actors and not really their characters outside of Dr Poison.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

That rings false to me. Batman provides a mythic quality. He is what turns it from a gritty police drama epic--well him the Joker, and Harvey Dent not being dead in the third act--into something heightened and grander than reality. The movie is not so much realistic as it makes you believe the Batman could exist. And in that world it means a Depression, rampant organized crime, corruption, and an urban community on a knife's edge. Nolan takes those ideas and coats them in post-9/11 gasoline before having Heath Ledger light the match.

It's hypnotic, but it wouldn't work as a police story. Because Batman represents more than authority; he represents the ideals of a community as well as its contradiction. If he were just a vigilante cop, it loses something, just as if Joker were a rogue terrorist. The fact they take on the monikers of elements of American pop culture but are frighteningly real gives them a visceral quality that may otherwise be impossible to capture.

And Batman gets put through the grinder. Save for perhaps Logan in Logan, no superhero endures more in his story and none feels more operatic and imposing in his sacrifice and nobility. There is no snark, no self-aware smirk. There is plenty of humor, but an earnest severity that adds pathos to the proceedings and makes the journey the most profound and satisfying a superhero has ever taken in one of these films.

But if Batman were replaced by Dick Tracy and Joker replaced by Pruneface, would it been that different of a movie as far as the story was concerned?
Where-as I can't see replacing Wonder Woman with Brenda Starr and it being the same movie.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Eh, I just disagree. I thought it added stakes to the scene and made the action scene mean something. Agree to disagree.

If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

 

[Visualiza]

DAcrowe you never actually refuted my point, despite quoting me.

[BLACKOUT]Antiope's death [/BLACKOUT]was very awkwardly handled, and it's something that stuck out to me.

I agree. What bugged me about it was how blatantly telegraphed it was. The setup felt a little too stilted and clunky for my tastes, and is it just me, or did it seem like Diana was less concerned with [BLACKOUT]Antiope's death[/BLACKOUT] and more preoccupied with starting her adventure?

 

[The Endless]

It did really obvious what was going to happen.

 

[DACrowe]

But if Batman were replaced by Dick Tracy and Joker replaced by Pruneface, would it been that different of a movie as far as the story was concerned?
Where-as I can't see replacing Wonder Woman with Brenda Starr and it being the same movie.

It would be a different movie altogether. Dick Tracy is a cop, it is a cop and robbers story. And few characters tap into that kind of madness and psychopathy so well while also being charming and charismatic for audiences like Joker. I mean, you could have had him be "a guy" like Javier Bardem as Silvia or, I suppose, Prunface. But it already loses something.

I think The Dark Knight captures the desire for a superhero and where it comes from better than almost any movie in the genre. Maybe not as well as Superman: The Movie or perhaps even recently Wonder Woman--with her being a literal (demi)goddess who comes and stops our war and ugliness--but the idea of civilization falling apart, the institutions cracking under pressure, and one man making it right. It is a fantasy that can lead to some dark places if we're not careful, but TDK goes there too, as does Rises, and asks if this is a form of statism or corruption by the end. Yet it always makes the hero suffer and sacrifice, and come from a place of service (as opposed to selfishness, ahem, Zack).

It is late and I think I am rambling now. My point is just that the superhero elements help make it bigger while the dramatic elements give it emotional weight. The result is a superhero movie that captured a time and a place in 2008, and a cultural anxiety, and made a superhero that was aware of his own limitations and moral paradoxes, and still made him save everyone. It was a movie tailor-made for the era that has now become obsessed with the genre, and this depiction of it struck a loud note that had ripples throughout the culture, not just in it being a hit but by how the Oscars even dole out Best Picture nominations. The fact we all still talk about it and compare everything to it nine years on.

So yeah, I think it benefits from its melding of genres and influences, just as Logan does. To say it should not be a superhero movie feels like a defense for superhero movies that have a deficit in ambition.

If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

 

[InCali]

Ivan:



The invaluable Mr. Tony Stark:



I will politely disagree with both these points. I think the action in Wonder Woman (barring the Ares fight) is better than anything Zack Snyder's done. While Patty used Zack's speed ramping and slow motion, she didn't overdo it to excessive effect. There also was a sense of geography and motion to her fight scenes, whereas Zack's can become very blurry and disorienting. Like a video game.

But the main point I was making is that Patty puts drama and emphasizes emotion in her action sequences. As she said herself, the No Man's Land scene isn't about how many bullets Wonder Woman deflects, it is about her defying the expectation of men and being who she is, and saving them all. In the process she takes on a godlike presence.

In the beach's case, it is about how fierce the Amazons are, but also how ugly war is. This is Diana's first glimpse of it, and it goes brutally. While the loss of Antiope is a bit redundant at this point in a franchise. Also say hi to Uncle Ben, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Yinsen, Uncle Ben again, Erskine, Thomas Wayne again, Jor-el, Martha Wayne again, Pa Kent, Jor-El once more, and Thomas and Martha Wayne yet again!

But the way it is done to illustrate the larger point of battle makes the fight sequence feel exhilarating and like it had stakes. It wasn't just to dazzle the audience. Consequences were felt. In so many of these superhero movies, things occur without stakes or consequence. It's just noise.

And speaking of Antiope, I reject the notion that only Gal and Chris gave good performances. Even with a few scenes, Robin Wright was terrific and really should have been in the movie more. Connie Nielsen was also strong. Hell, I think Elena Anaya was very good as Doctor Poison and gave the character way more depth and soul than what's on the page. I saw her inner-life in that sequence with Pine and then at the end when Diana is looking at her. Considering she is written as a throwaway villain, that's impressive.


****


... and my fair My fair Kane:



I see these claims and disagree to a large extent as well. Do I think Gal Gadot is a great actress? No. But I think between having Pine to play off of and Patty's direction, she is very good in this movie. While she's not quite as good as Christopher Reeve, it's quite similar in that she is a green and charismatic presence that gets by a lot on charm and an enthralling optimism. And I think other than a few stray lines (that i did notice) she completely sells me she is this character.

With that said, I do worry how she will do back in the hands of Snyder. He seems to want Wonder Woman to be a ruthless, monotone badass warrior killer, which is not Patty's characterization. Plus he seems to struggle with actors who do not just naturally bring their characters fully formed to the table.

I thought I might catch some $#!t from people saying I was ragging on Gal, but I couldn't agree with you more. I felt from the beginning that she needed a script that was in her wheelhouse and a director than knew what to do with her. What I left out was a strong supporting cast and I LOVED the women of Themyscira. Chris hit a home run and this was a very, very solid movie.

I want her to progress as an actor and think Gal is a charismatic, smart, and talented woman that may bring something special to WW. I would like her to stay in Patty's hands for the time being.

EDIT: Robin is just a kick@@$, talented actor. One of my favorites.

 

[Mjölnir]

Belated reply to Mjolnir:



That rings false to me. Batman provides a mythic quality. He is what turns it from a gritty police drama epic--well him the Joker, and Harvey Dent not being dead in the third act--into something heightened and grander than reality. The movie is not so much realistic as it makes you believe the Batman could exist. And in that world it means a Depression, rampant organized crime, corruption, and an urban community on a knife's edge. Nolan takes those ideas and coats them in post-9/11 gasoline before having Heath Ledger light the match.

It's hypnotic, but it wouldn't work as a police story. Because Batman represents more than authority; he represents the ideals of a community as well as its contradiction. If he were just a vigilante cop, it loses something, just as if Joker were a rogue terrorist. The fact they take on the monikers of elements of American pop culture but are frighteningly real gives them a visceral quality that may otherwise be impossible to capture.

And Batman gets put through the grinder. Save for perhaps Logan in Logan, no superhero endures more in his story and none feels more operatic and imposing in his sacrifice and nobility. There is no snark, no self-aware smirk. There is plenty of humor, but an earnest severity that adds pathos to the proceedings and makes the journey the most profound and satisfying a superhero has ever taken in one of these films.

I already changed my mind on that the superhero aspect didn't contribute much as another poster pointed out, albeit as an answer to a different poster, that a pure crime drama would never get away with the dumber things in the plot of TDK (like driving a truck through the wall of a bank in broad daylight, get the money and then drive away like nothing happened). It certainly helped it on that account, but I think there are superhero movies that do more interesting things with the superhero aspect.

As for the characters, I do think you can make non-super ones that mean as much, or more. Characters like Lecter and Chigur are far scarier and intense than The Joker (not nearly as funny though) and I didn't know about any from before. As for being beaten up, McClane is still the archetypal hero that goes through hell for his objective. That's of course not to say that if you're a big fan of a character, having that in there will probably help. Batman himself is kind of overexposed these days across all media imo though.

 

[DA_Champion]

The fact that some root for the joker in TDK is part of the point.

 

[HunBoy]

I swear people are so tried of the Marvel formula!!4!!44!7-3=4!!!

Black Panther teaser: 89M views in 24H

Thor: Ragnarok teaser: 136M views in 24H

 

[DrCosmic]

I know I'm late but I'm amazed everyone isn't absolutely losing it over the BP teaser. The way y'all were talking about it on here, I thought it was just, like... blah, but... dude. Costume design alone. Goodnight. I am so pumped for that movie now.

On Wonder Woman, there were a few spots where Gadot's performance was emotionally flat, like in the trailer, specifically those moments, iirc, but the rest of the time, she emoted like a normal human being "But who will dance for us" melted my heart, dude.

Spoiler

Antiope's death was fine. Better than "Martha...", worse than Obi-Wan's. About on par with Yinsen if not a cut above because the relationship was better formed than Tony and Yinsen, or even Diana and Hippolyta in WW.

The thing that was REALLY telepgrahed was the Ares twist. That hurt me. I think the third act is where this thing fell apart, and I can't help but want to blame Snyder, since so much of the rest of his style was on it.

 

[DA_Champion]

I know I'm late but I'm amazed everyone isn't absolutely losing it over the BP teaser. The way y'all were talking about it on here, I thought it was just, like... blah, but... dude. Costume design alone. Goodnight. I am so pumped for that movie now.

On Wonder Woman, there were a few spots where Gadot's performance was emotionally flat, like in the trailer, specifically those moments, iirc, but the rest of the time, she emoted like a normal human being "But who will dance for us" melted my heart, dude.

Spoiler

Antiope's death was fine. Better than "Martha...", worse than Obi-Wan's. About on par with Yinsen if not a cut above because the relationship was better formed than Tony and Yinsen, or even Diana and Hippolyta in WW.

The thing that was REALLY telepgrahed was the Ares twist. That hurt me. I think the third act is where this thing fell apart, and I can't help but want to blame Snyder, since so much of the rest of his style was on it.

Personally I try not to watch trailers. They tend to give away too much and they are so engineered. The art of the perfect trailer has been nearly perfected.

I did catch the Ragnarok preview before wonder Woman and it was excellent.

 

[Zarex]

What I love about the Ragnarok trailer, especially in comparison to Panther, is that you get a complete story from within the main film. An evil witch goddess destroys Mjolnir, send Thor through a wormhole to another planet, where he is forced to battle the Hulk in a gladiatorial arena. Perfect!

I'd love to see more inventive types of promotion like the excellent NBA finals short film for Homecoming. Maybe another short film featuring Daar-El, Thor and Bruce's roomie on Sakaar.

 

[DA_Champion]

The idea of Asgard being destroyed does sound odd to me, is it not supposed to be the most powerful planet in the galaxy? or is that xandar?

Does the entire MCU take place within a single galaxy?

I wonder how it's going to feel to see an entire planet, a powerful planet, destroyed like it's nothing.

 

[I Am The Knight]

If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

From my point of view both of you are evil!