Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 37

[Kane52630]

Somebody uploaded that from a talk show appearance.

 

[ludovica]

The first act of Wonder Woman is pretty dull as well, with some hilariously bad line delivery from the amazons to boot. Where WW really shines is with the fish out of water stuff. It's a film with a good second act sandwiched between two mediocre ones.

Yeah.
But I would even say a mediocre second act sandwiched between two abysmal ones.

I had no real problem with WW outside that I just found it uninteresting in terms of both narrative and presentation. Even without bad action and CGI.

Like almost the whole audiences worlwide and non American critics, I completely agree. It's a mystery to me the enthusiasm there.
Maybe really low standards because it was the first "real" female superhero solo movie?
He's often a *****e, but Cameron is completely right here.

Also, having been where Themyscira was shot, the photography really sucks.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah.
But I would even say a mediocre second act sandwiched between two abysmal ones.



Like almost the whole audiences worlwide and non American critics, I completely agree. It's a mystery to me the enthusiasm there.
Maybe really low standards because it was the first "real" female superhero solo movie?
He's often a *****e, but Cameron is completely right here.

Also, having been where Themyscira was shot, the photography really sucks.

Yeah, okay. Because she is a woman she got good reviews.

The whole audiences WW made it the highest grossing superhero movie of all time, and the non-American critics are on RT too. Its at 92%.

 

[Lencho01]

I need some answers...

Can anyone explain to me why is there a studio audience woo'ing at :30?

The green screen moments took me out of it.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah, okay. Because she is a woman she got good reviews.

The whole audiences WW made it the highest grossing superhero movie of all time, and the non-American critics are on RT too. Its at 92%.

Say what?

 

[Timebomb]

The green screen moments took me out of it.

Yeah that shot right there was pretty bad. I hope it looks better on screen.

 

[ludovica]

Yeah, okay. Because she is a woman she got good reviews.

The whole audiences WW made it the highest grossing superhero movie of all time, and the non-American critics are on RT too. Its at 92%.

Not because she's a woman, because women have been vastly underrepresented until now in the genre. That's quite different.

Good reviews in North America, everywhere else not so much, where it was panned or seen as mediocre and stupid.

RT is representative mostly of NA and partially of the Anglosphere, there are a few Spanish reviewers, occasionally other "exotic" ones, but seems to me it is definitely not representative of a WW consensus.
It does not want to and it would be nigh impossible to. Not an issue, it is what it is.

Highest grossing WW? What? You must be confusing it with something else, check your numbers...
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm

Maybe you meant highest grossing debut?
That's debatable still... She debuted in BvS.
Not to speak that it performed astonishingly in NA, not equally well overseas (not bad also, mind you). The rest of the world was not impressed, not in the slightest: for a superhero film in 2017 there's mathematical proof of a vastly different reception.
Make of that what you will.

Also consider inflation and exchange rates...

Nobody is asking anybody to void their enjoynment of it. Inbefore you twist this.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I am literally watching Wonder Woman right now. The opening scene just happened. She walks little Diana to the tower where they keep the gifts from the Gods, including the Godkiller. She does not make it sound like a myth at all.

Now her mother is talking to her sister, about how they both know Ares is still alive. So what were you saying again?

Ummm

Have you even tried to pay attention to anything that I've been saying? Seriously WTF? What does any of that have to do with my point? I seriously thought that I made it more than clear with my last post. The scene I was talking about is after they interrogate Steve and Diana is trying to convince her mother to go to the human world because she thinks Ares is the one causing the war. FOR THE LAST TIME: The reason I mentioned that scene was as an example of how even the characters point out Diana's naivety because it's important for her arc. I never questioned the story Hippolyta told Diana which is what you seem to think.

Oh, you mean the dialogue that shows her mother is wrong, and is keeping Diana frightened of the outside world, so she won't venture out and be found by Ares? That dialogue? Okay.

AGAIN, the dialogue points out her naivety regarding mankind which is what I was talking about. Everything else that happens in the scene including Hippolyta's overprotective nature is irrelevant because it doesn't change my point at all(which in this case wasn't even negative so I don't know why you keep debating me on this)

"The point I continue to ignore", nope. You are making statements. I will show exactly how Ares works in the story and is necessary. Watching it right now by the way.

1. Diana repeatedly mentions leaving to join the war because of Ares. Because it is their responsibility. To stop the God of War. This is why she raids the gifts of the Gods tower before she leaves. That she starts with a misconception is the entire reason why she can lose hope in mankind.

2. Him not being responsible goes to the fundamental idea that this is humanity's fault. Her sheltered belief in people all being fundamentally good and can only be corrupted to do ill.

3. He ties directly into her origin. Her being part God and the Godkiller. It is her destiny to kill him, and in the process she learns who she truly is. And this can only be done with... another God.

1. She leaves because of what she thinks Ares is doing not because of Ares himself.

2. Which she realizes right before he shows up, he doesn't need to be there for that to happen because like you said, he's not responsible.

3. We already know her origin and even if it's her destiny to kill him he still didn't need to show up and undermine the message of the film. The secret of her powers is actually the only thing that would actually makes sense for your argument but it's such a minor detail that is just not enough especially because the reason it's even built up in the first place is so they can have the Ares exposition scene at the end.

You think it is awful. I think it is quite good now..

But I do love that you seem to ignore the mechanics of the scenes. Or that Steve sacrifices his own life to save mankind, and Diana has to deal with that. Because in the stakes of "losing someone", that is way higher then Thor's. Who sees Jane a movie later.

The other movies don't matter, otherwise that would make WW's ending even worse 'cause it doesn't line up with BvS at all

Actually plenty complained about the inclusion of Harvey Dent's coda in the third act. Or 5th act if you like.

Nope, I am saying you decided its bad. Which is your right. Doesn't suddenly make this a majority thing. Because people didn't keep going back to see it because they thought a third of the movie was garbage or even bad.

People complained about Harvey Dent but not the climax as a whole.

The third act is always brought up among the things that didn't work in the Wonder Woman by people who discuss movies online. According to your logic, box office gross is a measure of quality and movies that made more movie are better.

And your point?

Linking to a list that has Wonder Woman at #1 by using a formula that makes no sense doesn't help your case at all.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I need some answers...

Can anyone explain to me why is there a studio audience woo'ing at :30?

Holy **** that green screen is awful and I thought WW's was bad

That being said, I kinda enjoyed that clip. 2 characters having a conversation that isn't filled with lofty dialogue. There is nothing necessarily especial about it but the fact that what came before was so much worse, this feels surprisingly refreshing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Say what?

Forgot to write origin. But its true, look it up. More then Spider-Man.

 

[ludovica]

Forgot to write origin. But its true, look it up. More then Spider-Man.

No.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=spiderman.htm&adjust_yr=2017&p=.htm

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not because she's a woman, because women have been vastly underrepresented until now in the genre. That's quite different.

Good reviews in North America, everywhere else not so much, where it was panned or seen as mediocre and stupid.

RT is representative mostly of NA and partially of the Anglosphere, there are a few Spanish reviewers, occasionally other "exotic" ones, but seems to me it is definitely not representative of a WW consensus.
It does not want to and it would be nigh impossible to. Not an issue, it is what it is.

Highest grossing WW? What? You must be confusing it with something else, check your numbers...
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm

Maybe you meant highest grossing debut?
That's debatable still... She debuted in BvS.
Not to speak that it performed astonishingly in NA, not equally well overseas (not bad also, mind you). The rest of the world was not impressed, not in the slightest: for a superhero film in 2017 there's mathematical proof of a vastly different reception.
Make of that what you will.

Also consider inflation and exchange rates...

Nobody is asking anybody to void their enjoynment of it. Inbefore you twist this.

Oh, yes I am twisting it. Show me a list of the the reviews from France, Spain, Russia, Japan etc. You are so certain they trashed it, you should be able to find more reviews then are on RT to prove that the majority of the world did not like it.

The World was so unimpressed, we have to cut out the US (it made over 400m both domestically and OS) and avoid that it made more money then GotG.

The funniest thing about bringing up exchange rates and inflation? It helps WW. Because its OS totally was hampered by the dollar being much stronger then it was in 2014.

But hey, I twisted it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=spiderman.htm&adjust_yr=2017&p=.htm

Yes.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm

$821,763,408 is larger then $821,708,551. Did you not read the numbers before posting that? Everyone announced it when it happened. Why I knew.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wonder-woman-highest-grossing-superhero-origin-movie-2017-11

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhu...y-the-highest-grossing-superhero-origin-film/

 

[ludovica]

The funniest thing about bringing up exchange rates and inflation? It helps WW. Because its OS totally was hampered by the dollar being much stronger then it was in 2014.

Yes.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm

$821,763,408 is larger then $821,708,551. Did you not read the numbers before posting that? Everyone announced it when it happened. Why I knew.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wonder-woman-highest-grossing-superhero-origin-movie-2017-11

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhu...y-the-highest-grossing-superhero-origin-film/

You have problems with reading it seems, check again the link I posted to the adjusted Spider-Man box office.



See, I also can put emojis at random.

 

[Boy Scout]

I need some answers...

Can anyone explain to me why is there a studio audience woo'ing at :30?

Wow. That acting.

 

[AlluAllu]

I'm conflicted about Justice League. I don't want to support a continuity that has Murderbat in it, but the reactions are better than I expected.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ummm

Have you even tried to pay attention to anything that I've been saying? Seriously WTF? What does any of that have to do with my point? I seriously thought that I made it more than clear with my last post. The scene I was talking about is after they interrogate Steve and Diana is trying to convince her mother to go to the human world because she thinks Ares is the one causing the war. FOR THE LAST TIME: The reason I mentioned that scene was as an example of how even the characters point out Diana's naivety because it's important for her arc. I never questioned the story Hippolyta told Diana which is what you seem to think.

See this kind of doesn't work when we have the quote function:

How is it an arc to do exactly what she expected to do from the beginning? lol Even her mother tells her "that was just a story Diana"; people keep telling her that the world is more complicated, so her actual arc is to learn that, which she does after realizing that killing the general didn't change anything. Unfortunately they ruined it by still having the big fight with Ares that served no purpose to the story.

Most people agree that the third act is terrible and I doubt watching it 3 times would make any difference. I mean apart from what I've already explained multiple times, there's plenty other reasons to hate it(the awful CGI, Steve's pointless sacrifice, Ares' stupidity, the dialogue etc.).



Yeah and sometimes they can be poorly written and executed which is the case for Wonder Woman.

Serious question. You do realize the story at the beginning is real and Diana's mother is hiding it, so as to hide the fact from Diana that she is part God right?

You seem to be ignoring everything that actually happens in the movie, and now moved on to, "well everyone says it terrible". No. Her realizing that killing the general didn't change anything has nothing to do with the fact that she still needs to either fight and kill Ares or join him.

Most people do not agree WW's third act is terrible. It is why it is considered one of, if not the best superhero movie ever, even as I don't agree with that.

Yes but her mother is clearly referring to her naivety in that scene, Diana doesn't understand that the conflict is more complicated than the black and white story she was told as a child.



That's only because he's been needlessly shoehorned into the movie so WW has something to punch. Ares doesn't belong in the movie from a narrative standpoint, have you not read anything I've been saying? Because you've spent more time accusing people of not paying attention to the movie than actually reading my arguments. Her arc was done by the time he shows up, she doesn't learn anything by fighting him. He has no purpose in the plot, he doesn't belong in the movie. It's not that hard to understand.





Most people agree that the third act is the weakest part of the movie. There's multiple reasons why people wouldn't like it and you refuse to acknowledge that.



By who?

That is not Diana being naive. Because the story is true and her mother knows it. It is because she is lying to Diana, trying to convince her not to go. Its really simple.

AGAIN, the dialogue points out her naivety regarding mankind which is what I was talking about. Everything else that happens in the scene including Hippolyta's overprotective nature is irrelevant because it doesn't change my point at all(which in this case wasn't even negative so I don't know why you keep debating me on this)

The point is you are ignoring why Diana is naive. And she isn't simply naive about mankind. She is naive about the majority of these basic things because her mother shelters her and lies to her. Why this is all happening is important to why Diana needs to make her big decision to not give up on all people, because some are bad.

What you suggest is the move ends after her talk with Steve, which is ridiculous, because her biggest decision in the movie is when she decides not to get revenge for Steve. When she realizes her love for Steve, his for her, was real and that it is a more powerful emotion then the anger she feels. Which is why she then **** kicks the God of War.

That I need to explain when the movie literally spells it out with dialogue is... yeah.

1. She leaves because of what she thinks Ares is doing not because of Ares himself.

2. Which she realizes right before he shows up, he doesn't need to be there for that to happen because like you said, he's not responsible.

3. We already know her origin and even if it's her destiny to kill him he still didn't need to show up and undermine the message of the film. The secret of her powers is actually the only thing that would actually makes sense for your argument but it's such a minor detail that is just not enough especially because the reason it's even built up in the first place is so they can have the Ares exposition scene at the end.

1. Yes. It would be quite a let down if Ares wasn't actually there consider the reason her mother didn't want to tell her her true origin was Ares was out there, waiting for her. To kill her or turn her. You talk about her naive nature without realizing the reason her mother keeps her that was is because she doesn't want her to get too much knowledge, to keep her from leaving the island, to go after Ares. To be found by him.

2. No its because she thinks she killed Ares, which she didn't do. So real Ares has to be there to show that...

3. We don't know her origin. We learn it with Ares. He reveals she is his half sister, and thus half God. Not just, "brought to life".

The other movies don't matter, otherwise that would make WW's ending even worse 'cause it doesn't line up with BvS at all

Was Steve in BvS with his comedic sidekick and her boyfriend?

People complained about Harvey Dent but not the climax as a whole.

The third act is always brought up among the things that didn't work in the Wonder Woman by people who discuss movies online. According to your logic, box office gross is a measure of quality and movies that made more movie are better.

No they complained about:

1. Two Face being there and not getting a whole movie to himself.

2. Batman killing him.

My logic is that there seems to be some idea that because some people discuss it online it is seen as universally horrible. It clearly isn't. Plenty here don't feel that way, and considering the love and praise of the movie as a whole, it clearly isn't problem for general audiences or critics. But you treat it like the third act is SS or BvS in terms of being considered overwhelming bad.

Linking to a list that has Wonder Woman at #1 by using a formula that makes no sense doesn't help your case at all.

Whatever the formula it is listed as #1.

 

[OutOfBoose]

My goodness, green screen is just awful. There's like 50% Snyder on location and 50% Whedon on green screen.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think you know how exchange rates work.

You have problems with reading it seems, check again the link I posted to the adjusted Spider-Man box office.



See, I also can put emojis at random.

1. Mojo doesn't have adjusted overseas numbers. So they don't have an adjusted WW total. Can you point to it on the page you linked to?

2. In what way do adjusted numbers change what I said? What is the highest grossing superhero origin film? Wonder Woman.

 

[ludovica]

I don't think you know how exchange rates work.

1. Mojo doesn't have adjusted overseas numbers. So they don't have an adjusted WW total.

2. In what way do adjusted numbers change what I said?

I know. Don't worry.

1. Yep, but it is already enough.

2. Gosh, it's useless...

 

[honestbharani]

Forgot to write origin. But its true, look it up. More then Spider-Man.

IN that case, ok. But I dont think that by itself proves much because I feel origin story or no origin story, a movie is viewed by GA as a movie by itself. And if you think sequels do better coz they are using "established" characters, WW was introduced in BvS too. Its really a meaningless stat as far as I am concerned coz I am pretty sure WW is more well known around the world than say Iron Man was before MCU happened. I would rather see how it has done with respect to other CB movies this year WW as a better indicator of its reception.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I know. Don't worry.

1. Yep, but it is already enough.

2. Gosh, it's useless...

1. How is it enough? You do realize stuff can adjust down right? Like Avatar would adjust down because of overseas numbers.

2. It is when you are trying to avoid what the actual numbers are.

You said Wonder Woman was not the #1 grossing origin movie of all time. It in fact is. Then your like, "but adjusted". Who said anything about adjusted, and how do adjusted numbers change what the actual numbers are?

Also, this is what that page says...

Total Lifetime Grosses (Unadjusted)
Domestic: $403,706,375 49.1%
+ Foreign: $418,002,176 50.9%
= Worldwide: $821,708,551
Domestic Summary (Adjusted)
Opening Weekend: $176,516,000
(#1 rank, 3,615 theaters, $48,800 average)
% of Total Gross: 28.4%
> View All 16 Weekends
Widest Release: 3,876 theaters
Close Date: August 18, 2002
In Release: 108 days / 15.4 weeks

It only has an opening weekend adjusted number...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

IN that case, ok. But I dont think that by itself proves much because I feel origin story or no origin story, a movie is viewed by GA as a movie by itself. And if you think sequels do better coz they are using "established" characters, WW was introduced in BvS too. Its really a meaningless stat as far as I am concerned coz I am pretty sure WW is more well known around the world than say Iron Man was before MCU happened. I would rather see how it has done with respect to other CB movies this year WW as a better indicator of its reception.

She is not more well know then Superman, Batman, Spider-Man. And yet, still more.

 

[OutOfBoose]

So the whole world knows Bruce is the Bat? Arthur calls him Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same conversation in front of the locals.?????

Nobody doesn't give a **** about anything in DCFU.

 

[honestbharani]

She is not more well know then Superman, Batman, Spider-Man. And yet, still more.

I agree about Supes, Bats and Spidey. But I dont think there is a 4th hero who is more popular than WW, at least before the MCU happened.