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Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 37

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Agreeing or disagreeing with a behaviour, I'd have to agree it was a bit of a sudden jump from character flaw to *****. You don't have to agree with everything a character does or goes through for that. So much so that others noted it was a weird comment.

It seems like some seem to take statements like "you're being stupid" as not to mean something like "you're not thinking things through" but instead as saying "you are an unintelligent person". The former is the one that's correct though.

I can't count how many times I've heard people, mostly women, say "don't be a *****" without it being dead serious.

But that's my final comment on it as I don't think many are interested in seeing this meta discussion, and it's definitely not the topic of the thread.
 
Serious question. You do realize the story at the beginning is real and Diana's mother is hiding it, so as to hide the fact from Diana that she is part God right?

Yes but her mother is clearly referring to her naivety in that scene, Diana doesn't understand that the conflict is more complicated than the black and white story she was told as a child.

No. Her realizing that killing the general didn't change anything has nothing to do with the fact that she still needs to either fight and kill Ares or join him.

That's only because he's been needlessly shoehorned into the movie so WW has something to punch. Ares doesn't belong in the movie from a narrative standpoint, have you not read anything I've been saying? Because you've spent more time accusing people of not paying attention to the movie than actually reading my arguments. Her arc was done by the time he shows up, she doesn't learn anything by fighting him. He has no purpose in the plot, he doesn't belong in the movie. It's not that hard to understand.

You seem to be ignoring everything that actually happens in the movie, and now moved on to, "well everyone says it terrible".

Most people do not agree WW's third act is terrible

Most people agree that the third act is the weakest part of the movie. There's multiple reasons why people wouldn't like it and you refuse to acknowledge that.

It is why it is considered one of, if not the best superhero movie ever, even as I don't agree with that.

By who?
 
The movie starts with the story of Ares. That is a part of her character arc. To become the Godkiller. :funny:

Also, that is not the point of the humanity arc, at all. It was her to realize that humanity was worth saving. That bad individuals do not make men like Steve or those people in the town any less worth saving.

I am legitimately wondering how much people here have actually seen WW more then maybe once. I have seen it three times now, and what is being described here is not in the story. Scenes out of order, missing the messages literally delivered with dialogue.

Serious question. You do realize the story at the beginning is real and Diana's mother is hiding it, so as to hide the fact from Diana that she is part God right?

You seem to be ignoring everything that actually happens in the movie, and now moved on to, "well everyone says it terrible". No. Her realizing that killing the general didn't change anything has nothing to do with the fact that she still needs to either fight and kill Ares or join him.

Most people do not agree WW's third act is terrible. It is why it is considered one of, if not the best superhero movie ever, even as I don't agree with that.

I have literally just finished watching WW for the 4th time and this is all spot on :up:
 
Yes but her mother is clearly referring to her naivety in that scene, Diana doesn't understand that the conflict is more complicated than the black and white story she was told as a child.
Diana's mother is projecting as she refuses to be honest with her daughter. She is constantly lying to Diana to keep her secret. You ignored the entire context of the opening of the film to make your argument. Like the reason Diana is naive is because her mother wants to keep her that way.

That's only because he's been needlessly shoehorned into the movie so WW has something to punch. Ares doesn't belong in the movie from a narrative standpoint, have you not read anything I've been saying? Because you've spent more time accusing people of not paying attention to the movie than actually reading my arguments. Her arc was done by the time he shows up, she doesn't learn anything by fighting him. He has no purpose in the plot, he doesn't belong in the movie. It's not that hard to understand.
He is not shoehorned in, he is the catalyst for the story. Diana punches plenty of people in the movie. Plenty other then Ares. Ares is about Diana's turn nature and ascension beyond even her fellow Amazonians. He also helps teaches her the concept of responsibility. How can she question the nature of mankind without Ares presence?

And I can ask if people watched or remembered the movie when they are stating things factually incorrectly. Here is an example with her arc.

You have completely missed Diana's arc. Her arc can't be up when she thinks humanity isn't worth saving. Snyder didn't direct Wonder Woman. The movie ends on a hopeful note, where she acknowledges that lack of black and white, but how one should still preserve do to the good nature of people like her new friends and Steve. The entire tank scene is built around that very concept. How can you say her arc is done? She jumps off the roof at the end like she is Superman saying:

I used to want to save the world. To end war and bring peace to mankind. But then, I glimpsed the darkness that lives within their light. I learned that inside every one of them, there will always be both. The choice each must make for themselves - something no hero will ever defeat. I've touched the darkness that lives in between the light. Seen the worst of this world, and the best. Seen the terrible things men do to each other in the name of hatred, and the lengths they'll go to for love. Now I know. Only love can save this world. So I stay. I fight, and I give... for the world I know can be. This is my mission, now. Forever.

Now tell me, how does that movie end with her arc ending before Steve tells her he loves her, sacrifices himself and she chooses not to kill Doctor Poison?

Most people agree that the third act is the weakest part of the movie. There's multiple reasons why people wouldn't like it and you refuse to acknowledge that.
Weakest or terrible? See you just changed the argument. The weakest act of TDK is the third. Its still great to me and my favorite finale for a superhero film.

I never said people have to like it nor do I ignore flaws. I mention them. You are using the universal idea that everyone agrees with your argument, which is not based in what happens in the movie. Even as many, many, many people loved WW from start to finish, making it the highest grossing superhero origin movie over the likes of Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, and every other one.

https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/50-best-superhero-movies-of-all-time/5/
 
yes,from justice league's reaction DCEU film will be my killing time for waiting real superhero story like Young Justice SS3.
 
The first act of Wonder Woman is pretty dull as well, with some hilariously bad line delivery from the amazons to boot. Where WW really shines is with the fish out of water stuff. It's a film with a good second act sandwiched between two mediocre ones.
 
I had no real problem with WW outside that I just found it uninteresting in terms of both narrative and presentation. Even without bad action and CGI. Maybe comics are to blame.
 
Diana's mother is projecting as she refuses to be honest with her daughter. She is constantly lying to Diana to keep her secret. You ignored the entire context of the opening of the film to make your argument. Like the reason Diana is naive is because her mother wants to keep her that way.

You keep ignoring the actual scene in question, the one I'm talking about, the one that's relevant. You keep doing this, failing to directly adress my points and then going off on tangents.

Diana: Zeus created man to be strong and wise and compassionate.
Hippolyta: That was a story, Diana. There is much you do not understand, men are easily corrupted.

It's blatantly clear that she's referring to Diana's naivety and ignorance regarding men and what they're capable. It's THAT simple. Maybe you need to watch the movie a fourth time.

He is not shoehorned in, he is the catalyst for the story. Diana punches plenty of people in the movie. Plenty other then Ares. Ares is about Diana's turn nature and ascension beyond even her fellow Amazonians. He also helps teaches her the concept of responsibility. How can she question the nature of mankind without Ares presence?

And I can ask if people watched or remembered the movie when they are stating things factually incorrectly. Here is an example with her arc.

You have completely missed Diana's arc. Her arc can't be up when she thinks humanity isn't worth saving. Snyder didn't direct Wonder Woman. The movie ends on a hopeful note, where she acknowledges that lack of black and white, but how one should still preserve do to the good nature of people like her new friends and Steve. The entire tank scene is built around that very concept. How can you say her arc is done? She jumps off the roof at the end like she is Superman saying:

Now tell me, how does that movie end with her arc ending before Steve tells her he loves her, sacrifices himself and she chooses not to kill Doctor Poison?

Ares wasn't necessary for ANY of that, the story doesn't need him for that to happen. That's the point that you continue to ignore and keep bringing more and more excuses for it. Without Ares she's left to make the choice of saving mankind on her own(unless you're implying that she's so selfish that she would just go back to Themyscira despite already knowing humanity is capable of being good). Trevor could still die(hopefully in a less contrived way) because Ares had nothing to do with his death and she could still have her forced "love conquers all" moment because Ares wasn't even the one who triggered it in the first place :funny: All of this could have happened in a smaller scale war battle instead of a huge fight between cartoons. I can't believe that even after you wrote all of that you didn't realize how irrelevant Ares was in all of it. That, along with your insistence that TFA/Thor don't have second acts, tells me that you don't have the right understanding of narrative.

The third act is just awful and even if the ones in TFA and Thor aren't perfect they're still much better. The one in Thor in particular is pretty good, Thor sacrificing the chance to be with his loved one so he could save the race that he wanted to destroy at the beginning of the movie.

Weakest or terrible? See you just changed the argument. The weakest act of TDK is the third. Its still great to me and my favorite finale for a superhero film.

I never said people have to like it nor do I ignore flaws. I mention them. You are using the universal idea that everyone agrees with your argument, which is not based in what happens in the movie. Even as many, many, many people loved WW from start to finish, making it the highest grossing superhero origin movie over the likes of Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, and every other one.

https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/50-best-superhero-movies-of-all-time/5/

People don't go out of their way to point out TDK's third act but they do with WW because it's significantly worse than the rest of the movie. If Box Office success is your metric for how good you think WW is than I guess every movie that grossed more is better.

The formula used for that RT ranking doesn't seem to make any sense.
 
Going to see Ragnarok tomorrow.
Do the post credit scenes matter? Without spoiling them, do they set up the future like the Iron Man, Winter Soldier, etc. credit scenes or are they just jokes?
 
Going to see Ragnarok tomorrow.
Do the post credit scenes matter? Without spoiling them, do they set up the future like the Iron Man, Winter Soldier, etc. credit scenes or are they just jokes?

The mid-credits scene is important, the post-credits scene is just a joke.
 
Going to see Ragnarok tomorrow.
Do the post credit scenes matter? Without spoiling them, do they set up the future like the Iron Man, Winter Soldier, etc. credit scenes or are they just jokes?

Hope you enjoy it. Stay for the mid credits but no need for the end credit. Its funny but not important. At least I don't think it is.
 
If the reviews are mixed and JL makes as around what BVS did, does everyone think they continue as is and green light JL2 or do we think Flashpoint soft reboots and they go with more solos or something different?
 
If the reviews are mixed and JL makes as around what BVS did, does everyone think they continue as is and green light JL2 or do we think Flashpoint soft reboots and they go with more solos or something different?

I never really thought Flashpoint was going to be used as a soft reboot. I'd be even more upset if they do go that route for his first "solo" film
 
I need some answers...

Can anyone explain to me why is there a studio audience woo'ing at :30?

 
I never really thought Flashpoint was going to be used as a soft reboot. I'd be even more upset if they do go that route for his first "solo" film

But why do Flashpoint? We don't know these characters enough for a proper Flashpoint. I just assumed it would be for a reboot if needed
 
But why do Flashpoint? We don't know these characters enough for a proper Flashpoint. I just assumed it would be for a reboot if needed

That's what I've been wondering :cwink:

Probably A) it's gonna be quite a bit different from the comic/animated movie and B) because Johns wrote it
 
WW is a solid origin story but nothing spectacular. Even within the DCEU, I feel there were highs that MoS hit that WW never does, even though it does not plumb the depths that parts of MoS did as well. Its a movie that is consistently good, even in the 3rd act, coz honestly I have pretty low expectations for any 3rd act in a SH movie. I still think TFA is better than WW but I would say WW is better than Thor 1 simply coz WW had the more interesting love story.


Within the DCEU, I would say WW is the best movie IMO but then again, if I could like rank them in parts, I would say parts of MoS hit levels of greatness that WW never does.
 
WW is a solid origin story but nothing spectacular. Even within the DCEU, I feel there were highs that MoS hit that WW never does, even though it does not plumb the depths that parts of MoS did as well. Its a movie that is consistently good, even in the 3rd act, coz honestly I have pretty low expectations for any 3rd act in a SH movie. I still think TFA is better than WW but I would say WW is better than Thor 1 simply coz WW had the more interesting love story.


Within the DCEU, I would say WW is the best movie IMO but then again, if I could like rank them in parts, I would say parts of MoS hit levels of greatness that WW never does.

Fair assessment. WW is my favorite DCEU movie but still middle tier in the grand scheme of things.
 
So the whole world knows Bruce is the Bat? Arthur calls him Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same conversation in front of the locals.?????
 
You keep ignoring the actual scene in question, the one I'm talking about, the one that's relevant. You keep doing this, failing to directly adress my points and then going off on tangents.
I am literally watching Wonder Woman right now. The opening scene just happened. She walks little Diana to the tower where they keep the gifts from the Gods, including the Godkiller. She does not make it sound like a myth at all.

Now her mother is talking to her sister, about how they both know Ares is still alive. So what were you saying again?

It's blatantly clear that she's referring to Diana's naivety and ignorance regarding men and what they're capable. It's THAT simple. Maybe you need to watch the movie a fourth time.
Oh, you mean the dialogue that shows her mother is wrong, and is keeping Diana frightened of the outside world, so she won't venture out and be found by Ares? That dialogue? Okay.

Ares wasn't necessary for ANY of that, the story doesn't need him for that to happen. That's the point that you continue to ignore and keep bringing more and more excuses for it. Without Ares she's left to make the choice of saving mankind on her own(unless you're implying that she's so selfish that she would just go back to Themyscira despite already knowing humanity is capable of being good). Trevor could still die(hopefully in a less contrived way) because Ares had nothing to do with his death and she could still have her forced "love conquers all" moment because Ares wasn't even the one who triggered it in the first place :funny: All of this could have happened in a smaller scale war battle instead of a huge fight between cartoons. I can't believe that even after you wrote all of that you didn't realize how irrelevant Ares was in all of it. That, along with your insistence that TFA/Thor don't have second acts, tells me that you don't have the right understanding of narrative.
"The point I continue to ignore", nope. You are making statements. I will show exactly how Ares works in the story and is necessary. Watching it right now by the way.

1. Diana repeatedly mentions leaving to join the war because of Ares. Because it is their responsibility. To stop the God of War. This is why she raids the gifts of the Gods tower before she leaves. That she starts with a misconception is the entire reason why she can lose hope in mankind.

2. Him not being responsible goes to the fundamental idea that this is humanity's fault. Her sheltered belief in people all being fundamentally good and can only be corrupted to do ill.

3. He ties directly into her origin. Her being part God and the Godkiller. It is her destiny to kill him, and in the process she learns who she truly is. And this can only be done with... another God.

The third act is just awful and even if the ones in TFA and Thor aren't perfect they're still much better. The one in Thor in particular is pretty good, Thor sacrificing the chance to be with his loved one so he could save the race that he wanted to destroy at the beginning of the movie.
You think it is awful. I think it is quite good now..

But I do love that you seem to ignore the mechanics of the scenes. Or that Steve sacrifices his own life to save mankind, and Diana has to deal with that. Because in the stakes of "losing someone", that is way higher then Thor's. Who sees Jane a movie later. :funny:

People don't go out of their way to point out TDK's third act but they do with WW because it's significantly worse than the rest of the movie. If Box Office success is your metric for how good you think WW is than I guess every movie that grossed more is better.
Actually plenty complained about the inclusion of Harvey Dent's coda in the third act. Or 5th act if you like.

Nope, I am saying you decided its bad. Which is your right. Doesn't suddenly make this a majority thing. Because people didn't keep going back to see it because they thought a third of the movie was garbage or even bad.

The formula used for that RT ranking doesn't seem to make any sense.
And your point?
 
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