The Dark Knight Rises Coleman Reese vs. John Blake

[Tequilla]

I definitely got the impression that one of the stories the orphans made up about Bruce was that he was Batman. Why wouldn't it be? It's like the coolest possible "legend" you could tell about him if you're a kid from Gotham. I always felt that was the thing that originally planted the idea in Blake's head. That's the point of Blake saying, "To the other kids that's all they were, just stories". It implies a connection there.

Off course it was. I didn't even knew people missed such a blatantly hint.

 

[Arawn Fenn]

No he didn't. He said the kids used to make up stories about him because he was a billionaire orphan.

And the stories obviously involved him being Batman, otherwise they're totally irrelevant to Blake's explanation. Trying to throw out contradictory evidence only makes you look wrong.

 

[shauner111]

Yep. They all made up stories about him being batman, but It made Blake think about it more and really look at him and how he was acting at the orphanage. This is probably a big reason as to why he became a cop, because he had a talent for looking into things further than anyone else. For the other kids they were just fun stories and they moved on, but not for Blake. He saw past the façade. It's very logical.

 

[The Joker]

*sigh*

I have nothing to say to this statement other than the fact that it is completely false. Also once again ignoring the fact that matching jaws is not that easy in the first place but whatever.


Again, if they can spot him in the first place. Even then, again, matching jaws is....oh forget it. Why do I even bother?

I don't know what's funnier. That belief that the orphans of Gotham all surmised he was Batman, or the assertion that Blake studied Batman's jawline from some obscured pictures.

And the stories obviously involved him being Batman, otherwise they're totally irrelevant to Blake's explanation.

Hence why this scene is so bad, among other reasons. It was irrelevant to Blake's explanation. If all the kids in an orphanage were coming up with ideas he was Batman, then so would the rest of Gotham. Blake was talking about how they idolized him because he was an orphan like them, but a big successful rich one.

This nails it:

"2) BATMAN’S IDENTITY: John Blake, troubled by the arrival of Bane and the injury of Jim Gordon, decides enough’s enough. Gotham City needs the Goddamn Batman. That’s all well and good Officer Blake, but it’s not like you know who Batman is…Oh wait, you do. Yes, John Blake knows exactly who Batman is and visits him to say so, as well as ask for his help

THE LOGIC GAP: John Blake’s deduction of Batman’s secret identity isn’t just clever, it’s damn near psychic. In the course of his conversation with Bruce Wayne, Blake reveals that he too knows the pain of seeing a parent violently murdered (actually I’m pretty sure A LOT of kids in Gotham are familiar with that one), and that upon meeting Bruce Wayne (once, and a damn long time ago at that) he recognized the same trauma and relentless anger, and thereby deduced “Hey this is guy is totally Batman!” or as he puts it “The minute I saw you, I knew who you really were”. OK, I can buy that John Blake might recognize Bruce as similarly traumatized person, and it only makes sense that somebody might wonder about Bruce Wayne being Batman (because seriously, who else can afford that stuff?), but it’s still quite an intuitive leap from, “I can see you’ve suffered” to “You must be Batman”. This would have made more sense if Blake had been the kid Batman meets and later saves in Batman Begins. Then his whole “The minute I saw you, I knew who you really were” line would have made a lot more sense."

http://www.fantomcomics.com/reviews/logic-gaps-dark-knight-rises/

Trying to throw out contradictory evidence only makes you look wrong.

Indeed. You should heed your own words.

 

[Kazuki]

Hence why this scene is so bad, among other reasons. It was irrelevant to Blake's explanation. If all the kids in an orphanage were coming up with ideas he was Batman, then so would the rest of Gotham

Yes! This is exactly my opinion! If a small group of kids comes up with an idea, the whole rest of the city has to have the same exact idea. Otherwise it´s simply impossible. That´s why this movie fails.

 

[Arawn Fenn]

It was irrelevant to Blake's explanation.

Only in your rewrite of the scene. In actual reality, that line is there because it's part of the explanation, as opposed to something irrelevant thrown in for no reason at all. Again, if you have to rewrite the film to make your position seem to work, you were wrong in the first place. You can't take something that makes sense, scratch some of it out and replace it with your own nonsense, and then proclaim the resulting mess to be someone else's fault.

Blake was talking about how they idolized him because he was an orphan like them, but a big successful rich one.

No, he was talking about stories they told, which to everyone else were "just stories". Bruce Wayne being a successful rich orphan is not a story that would be deemed false by anyone, because those are merely the publicly known facts of his situation. It seems as if you are unable to comprehend the dialogue here, or are simply choosing to ignore it because it gets in your way.

Indeed. You should heed your own words.

"I know you are but what am I"? You can do better than that.

On second thought, probably not.

 

[The Joker]

Only in your rewrite of the scene. In actual reality, that line is there because it's part of the explanation, as opposed to something irrelevant thrown in for no reason at all. Again, if you have to rewrite the film to make your position seem to work, you were wrong in the first place. You can't take something that makes sense, scratch some of it out and replace it with your own nonsense, and then proclaim the resulting mess to be someone else's fault.

That's exactly what you're doing. Blake's explanation of figuring out Batman's identity comes from the recognition of a look on his face. He was making no analogy to Batman stories the kids told. He was saying they made up stories about him, but he knew who he really was.

There's no rewrite here. Just the plain simple straight forward dialogue that backs up what I'm saying.

No, he was talking about stories they told, which to everyone else were "just stories". Bruce Wayne being a successful rich orphan is not a story that would be deemed false by anyone, because those are merely the publicly known facts of his situation. It seems as if you are unable to comprehend the dialogue here, or are simply choosing to ignore it because it gets in your way.

It seems you are the one having difficulty comprehending the obvious. Let me break it down in simpler terms for you; because he was an orphan that was rich, he was so cool in their eyes so they made up stories about him. Not stories about him being rich. Obviously that isn't a story.

The kids would make up all kinds of tales about Bruce. Nothing to do with Batman. If they were Batman related he would have said so. Nolan is as subtle as sledgehammer when it comes to dialogue. He spells it out in words. He was obviously saying the other orphans made up tales about Bruce, but Blake was the only one who saw the real him.

Very straight forward.

"I know you are but what am I"? You can do better than that.

On second thought, probably not.

Something very familiar about you. I wonder what it could be.

 

[BatLobster]

The kids would make up all kinds of tales about Bruce. Nothing to do with Batman. If they were Batman related he would have said so. Nolan is as subtle as sledgehammer when it comes to dialogue. He spells it out in words. He was obviously saying the other orphans made up tales about Bruce, but Blake was the only one who saw the real him.

Very straight forward.

You say this quite often, but it's not always the case. Nolan can be subtle at times, blunt and obvious at others. Not to mention, are you referring to Jonah or Chris when you say that? It's not like we know exactly who wrote this scene.

Though, the dialogue sounds a bit more like Jonah's prose to me. He said it's one of his favorite scenes in the movie too, likening it to the scene in The Prestige where the child already knows the secret to the bird trick.

 

[Kazuki]

The kids would make up all kinds of tales about Bruce. Nothing to do with Batman. If they were Batman related he would have said so

Of course. People all act according what you find logical. If they don´t, then it is a plot hole. If the stories were about Batman, he had to tell. Not only that, but he would have to tell the story from the beginning until the end, while tucking Bruce at night. Everything must be explained in detail.

 

[shauner111]

Joker, your logic makes me

 

[The Joker]

You say this quite often, but it's not always the case. Nolan can be subtle at times, blunt and obvious at others.

When it comes to expository dialogue in key scenes like this, he is never blunt. Never.

Joker, your logic makes me

The day you agree with me about anything to do with TDKR is the day hell will freeze over.

We are polar opposites on everything about it. I never found middle ground with you.

EDIT: Btw good to see Kazuki banned. That guy was a troll.

 

[ThePhantasm]

What I don't understand is how Blake figures out Bruce is Batman from his look, but the other kids who are ALSO orphans don't. And if they DID tell stories about Bruce being Batman (which I don't think Blake meant), why was it more than a story to Blake but not to the rest of them? What sets him apart from all the other orphans? There's no explanation for that. After all, they've all suffered tragedies, lost their parents, had to learn to hide their anger, etc. The only explanation is that Blake is just "speshul."

 

[milost]

That's exactly what you're doing. Blake's explanation of figuring out Batman's identity comes from the recognition of a look on his face. He was making no analogy to Batman stories the kids told. He was saying they made up stories about him, but he knew who he really was.

There's no rewrite here. Just the plain simple straight forward dialogue that backs up what I'm saying.



It seems you are the one having difficulty comprehending the obvious. Let me break it down in simpler terms for you; because he was an orphan that was rich, he was so cool in their eyes so they made up stories about him. Not stories about him being rich. Obviously that isn't a story.

The kids would make up all kinds of tales about Bruce. Nothing to do with Batman. If they were Batman related he would have said so. Nolan is as subtle as sledgehammer when it comes to dialogue. He spells it out in words. He was obviously saying the other orphans made up tales about Bruce, but Blake was the only one who saw the real him.

Very straight forward.

Yup, this is how it goes down.


- Blake and Bruce have met before (another crazy contrived explanation that's even unbeknownst to Bruce but not as bad as "when you were gone during Batman Begins for 7 years, I took a little vacation yearly to see if you were at . . . FLORENCE ITALY . . . and I drank a specific drink, hoping I'd see you with a woman and maybe some kids)

- Our very own John Blake (a new, undeveloped random character that we're supposed to now care about that takes on the legacy) was also . . . you guessed it! AN ORPHAN just like Bruce Wayne! Not just that, but he attended an orphanage that was funded by WAYNE ENTERPRISES.

- Supposedly, Bruce Wayne, breaking his playboy facade at some unknown time (certainly not the Bruce of Begins or The Dark Knight), visited "St. Swithin's" when Blakester was a young boy. And not just by himself but with some hot, smokin' girl and his cooooool car! Man, that drunk, irresponsible, pigheaded, narcissistic fool that burns down his family mansion and buys out hotels is a GREAT role model for the St. Swithins kids? Why, BECAUSE HE'S ALSO AN ORPHAN.

- Joseph Gordon Levitt identified with Bruce because he had an unshakable anger and a "feeling in dem bones" that made him hypothesize that Bruce Wayne was indeed, THE BATMAN.

- Blake claims that all orphans are angry fellows that nobody understands and that they mask (lol, great writing) their pain by smiling like Bruce Wayne. This is orphans mind you, nobody else does that. ONLY orphans are depressed and angry lads that hide their pain, cause you know, BATMAN IS AN ORPHAN AND WE GOTTA WRAP THIS STORY UP LIKE, RIGHT NOW, IN THIS ONE. ORPHANS (just in case you, the audience, never knew that Bruce Wayne/Batman was indeed an orphan at one time in the characters life).

- Kids supposedly made up stories about Bruce Wayne because, well, I guess a Billionaire orphan is cool to them. We're all orphans at some point in our lives, but, no, "OH MAN, THAT BRUCE WAYNE, HE'S A ROLEMODEL POSTER BOY TO US ORPHAN BOYS". Dumb.

- Cue "Legend" crap (as if that isn't beaten over our head enough along with, FEAR, RISES, etc.) That's right folks, Bruce Wayne, the irresponsible, billionaire playboy is a hero to children everywhere. They make stories about him I guess (what a bunch of losers, I'd make up stories about Batman and the Joker duking it out for eternity instead).

- Blake knows by a look, a look. That's the explanation. "Blah, Blah, Blah, you had that fake look on your face, the same 'orphan look' that I have that I taught myself to appear happy".




That's how it goes down, in all of it's ridiculous glory. You know what I'd buy more? That little Narrows Kid from Begins. You know, Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Yeah, I mean, what happened to him? While he might not have been an orphan, his parents were Narrows trash, fighting inside and you know what? Little Narrows Kid is the only one who believed in the Batman. All those other kids thought he was full of ****.

I would have atleast bought Little Narrows Kid coming into this story and saying, "ya know Bruce, I knew it was you. The way you gave me that Wayne Enterprises gadget, the way you saved your girlfriend . . . the way she called you Bruce, it wasn't hard to deduce when everyone was saying that Batman had to have his hands on some industry or some form of wealth".

Not,

"I know dat feeling in mah bones and years ago at some unspecified, UNSHOWN time (hey, Nolan bros, Goyer, you guys do know that film is a visual medium, right?), I saw you acting out of character, smiling like a hooligan with a hot girl, and you know what? I knew you were Batman. I KNEW from a look. Not stories we made up of you man, no, I JUST KNEW, imma fellow ORPHAN, bro".


Terrible.

Something very familiar about you. I wonder what it could be.

Anno?

 

[milost]

What I don't understand is how Blake figures out Bruce is Batman from his look, but the other kids who are ALSO orphans don't. And if they DID tell stories about Bruce being Batman (which I don't think Blake meant), why was it more than a story to Blake but not to the rest of them? What sets him apart from all the other orphans? There's no explanation for that. After all, they've all suffered tragedies, lost their parents, had to learn to hide their anger, etc. The only explanation is that Blake is just "speshul."

They didn't feel "dat anger" in "dem bones". That's the key here. Other orphans aren't like Joseph Gordon Levitt I guess.

 

[shauner111]

The day you agree with me about anything to do with TDKR is the day hell will freeze over.

We are polar opposites on everything about it. I never found middle ground with you.

True dat.

 

[BatLobster]

Of course he's special, he's friggin Robin! Bruce is special too. Not all billionaire orphans would go on to spend their nights fighting crime. Takes a special kinda person.

 

[milost]

Of course he's special, he's friggin Robin!

 

[BatLobster]

 

[ThePhantasm]

"He's special because he's Robin"? That's the explanation?

So in other words he's special because the story has contrived it that way to emphasize his uniqueness in a brief scene.

 

[The Joker]

Yup, this is how it goes down.


- Blake and Bruce have met before (another crazy contrived explanation that's even unbeknownst to Bruce but not as bad as "when you were gone during Batman Begins for 7 years, I took a little vacation yearly to see if you were at . . . FLORENCE ITALY . . . and I drank a specific drink, hoping I'd see you with a woman and maybe some kids)

- Our very own John Blake (a new, undeveloped random character that we're supposed to now care about that takes on the legacy) was also . . . you guessed it! AN ORPHAN just like Bruce Wayne! Not just that, but he attended an orphanage that was funded by WAYNE ENTERPRISES.

- Supposedly, Bruce Wayne, breaking his playboy facade at some unknown time (certainly not the Bruce of Begins or The Dark Knight), visited "St. Swithin's" when Blakester was a young boy. And not just by himself but with some hot, smokin' girl and his cooooool car! Man, that drunk, irresponsible, pigheaded, narcissistic fool that burns down his family mansion and buys out hotels is a GREAT role model for the St. Swithins kids? Why, BECAUSE HE'S ALSO AN ORPHAN.

- Joseph Gordon Levitt identified with Bruce because he had an unshakable anger and a "feeling in dem bones" that made him hypothesize that Bruce Wayne was indeed, THE BATMAN.

- Blake claims that all orphans are angry fellows that nobody understands and that they mask (lol, great writing) their pain by smiling like Bruce Wayne. This is orphans mind you, nobody else does that. ONLY orphans are depressed and angry lads that hide their pain, cause you know, BATMAN IS AN ORPHAN AND WE GOTTA WRAP THIS STORY UP LIKE, RIGHT NOW, IN THIS ONE. ORPHANS (just in case you, the audience, never knew that Bruce Wayne/Batman was indeed an orphan at one time in the characters life).

- Kids supposedly made up stories about Bruce Wayne because, well, I guess a Billionaire orphan is cool to them. We're all orphans at some point in our lives, but, no, "OH MAN, THAT BRUCE WAYNE, HE'S A ROLEMODEL POSTER BOY TO US ORPHAN BOYS". Dumb.

- Cue "Legend" crap (as if that isn't beaten over our head enough along with, FEAR, RISES, etc.) That's right folks, Bruce Wayne, the irresponsible, billionaire playboy is a hero to children everywhere. They make stories about him I guess (what a bunch of losers, I'd make up stories about Batman and the Joker duking it out for eternity instead).

- Blake knows by a look, a look. That's the explanation. "Blah, Blah, Blah, you had that fake look on your face, the same 'orphan look' that I have that I taught myself to appear happy".




That's how it goes down, in all of it's ridiculous glory. You know what I'd buy more? That little Narrows Kid from Begins. You know, Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Yeah, I mean, what happened to him? While he might not have been an orphan, his parents were Narrows trash, fighting inside and you know what? Little Narrows Kid is the only one who believed in the Batman. All those other kids thought he was full of ****.

I would have atleast bought Little Narrows Kid coming into this story and saying, "ya know Bruce, I knew it was you. The way you gave me that Wayne Enterprises gadget, the way you saved your girlfriend . . . the way she called you Bruce, it wasn't hard to deduce when everyone was saying that Batman had to have his hands on some industry or some form of wealth".

Not,

"I know dat feeling in mah bones and years ago at some unspecified, UNSHOWN time (hey, Nolan bros, Goyer, you guys do know that film is a visual medium, right?), I saw you acting out of character, smiling like a hooligan with a hot girl, and you know what? I knew you were Batman. I KNEW from a look. Not stories we made up of you man, no, I JUST KNEW, imma fellow ORPHAN, bro".


Terrible.

Anno?

Possibly since I see he's now banned, too.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

I still don't get how do these guys missed that the stories about Bruce involve him being Batman. From my first watch that's how it is. If you don't connect that to how Blake tell the story at the first go, then that's where the problem lies.

 

[JackWhite]

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Possibly since I see he's now banned, too.

Yay, the post is great because every line of analysis is immediately labelled as dumb!

 

[BatLobster]

@JackWhite, that was epic.

"He's special because he's Robin"? That's the explanation?

So in other words he's special because the story has contrived it that way to emphasize his uniqueness in a brief scene.

Yup, pretty much. I didn't say anyone has to like it, but that's what it comes down to. Just like the opening scene of TDK is contrived to show that The Joker is a maniacal genius that can recruit professionals for a bank job without them ever seeing him in person, secretly turn them all against each other, miraculously time a bus crashing through the bank, mysteriously change hair colors and then get away in a bus that drives out the side of a bank in broad daylight. That would be completely over the top in a regular heist movie, but we immediately accept it. Why? Because he's The Joker. He's special, and we as an audience are already bringing that to the table.

 

[JackWhite]

@JackWhite, that was epic.

Indeed. I've been wanting to use that gif. for awhile now. Even if I'm on the fence with the Blake character, I just couldn't resist.