The Dark Knight Rises Coleman Reese vs. John Blake

[The Joker]

And by the way: Blake said other kids also talked about Bruce being Batman.

No he didn't. He said the kids used to make up stories about him because he was a billionaire orphan.

 

[Kazuki]

Every single one of them figured out his identity through plausible means. They didn't know him from just a look on his face.

Why? Thinking two people look alike is unplausible? Bruce was rich, young, in shape. His parents were murdered. Doesn´t seem that hard to suspect of him as being Batman.

 

[Kazuki]

No he didn't. He said the kids used to make up stories about him because he was a billionaire orphan

He insinuated the stories were about Batman. "For them it was just stories, but for me...". For what the kids were just stories, for Blake was real, since he really believed he knew for a fact.

 

[The Joker]

Why? Thinking two people look alike is unplausible?

LOL look alike? Did Blake get up face to face with Batman and study his jaw line?

Bruce was rich, young, in shape. His parents were murdered. Doesn´t seem that hard to suspect of him as being Batman.

If it was that easy to deduce Batman's identity then most of Gotham would have it figured out. Hence why Bruce established alibis for his whereabouts like the cruise in TDK, and puts on the whole playboy facade to account for what he does with his time and money.

Blake didn't figure out Batman's identity like this. He simply recognized a look on his face. The look of someone hiding emotional pain like he did. People hide their emotional pain all the time. It doesn't make them Batman.

It was an idiotic scene.

He insinuated the stories were about Batman. "For them it was just stories, but for me...". For what the kids were just stories, for Blake was real, since he really believed he knew for a fact.

No, he said the kids made up stories about him. Blake said he knew who he really was because of the look on his face. Hence why he knew the truth, and the kids and their stories, stories as in more than one different tale, was just that. Stories.

 

[Kazuki]

LOL look alike? Did Blake get up face to face with Batman and study his jaw line?

Who knows? Maybe he saw footage. Who knows, really? Do you know?

If it was that easy to deduce Batman's identity then most of Gotham would have it figured out. Hence why Bruce established alibis for his whereabouts like the cruise in TDK, and puts on the whole playboy facade to account for what he does with his time and money.

That´s the problem with movies. Things aren´t real. In real world it wouldn´t be that hard to figure that out.

Blake didn't figure out Batman's identity like this. He simply recognized a look on his face. The look of someone hiding emotional pain like he did. People hide their emotional pain all the time. It doesn't make them Batman.

It doesn´t have to make sense to you. He believed he knew who Batman was. It was a fantasy he created as a kid. Kids have a fertile imagination. It´s as simple as that. He just believed he knew, and he happened to be right.

Maybe he was more intelligent than someone like you and was able to make an association between facts most people wouldn´t even consider?

Maybe he believed that only someone in emotional pain would subject himself to that kind of life? Maybe he also believed someone like Batman would have to be strong, in shape and rich? And maybe he looked to Bruce Wayne and saw all the characteristics that he thought someone like Batman would need to have? Seems pretty plausible to me.

 

[The Joker]

Who knows? Maybe he saw footage. Who knows, really? Do you know?

I know he said the only time he met him was when he went to the orphanage.

That´s the problem with movies. Things aren´t real. In real world it wouldn´t be that hard to figure that out.

In the real world someone wouldn't figure out Batman's identity based on a facial expression either. Even in the movie world it sounds ridiculous.

It doesn´t have to make sense to you.

Yes it does.

He believed he knew who Batman was. It was a fantasy he created as a kid. Kids have a fertile imagination. It´s as simple as that. He just believed he knew, and he happened to be right.

Is that supposed to be a convincing argument? He just knew because kids have an active imagination?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Maybe he was more intelligent than someone like you

You make one more personal insult and I'll have a moderator come in here and slap you down to size.

What he said was not an act of intelligence. It was clairvoyance. Because Bruce was hiding emotional pain he surmised he must be Batman. Never mind that millions of people hide emotional pain and put on a fake smile all the time.

Maybe he believed that only someone in emotional pain would subject himself to that kind of life? Maybe he also believed someone like Batman would have to be strong, in shape and rich?

Again if it was as simple as that most of Gotham would be onto him.

And maybe he looked to Bruce Wayne and saw all the characteristics that he thought someone like Batman would need to have?

Like what? As far as he knows Bruce Wayne spends his time in fast cars with fast women. Just like the rest of Gotham.

Again Blake's deduction came from a facial expression of hiding pain. But it's common knowledge Bruce Wayne lost his parents as a kid. So Bruce hiding pain is normal. Natural. It doesn't make him Batman.

Seems pretty plausible to me.

No offense but you're easily convinced.

 

[Shikamaru]

Any time you want to take me on in Batman knowledge competition, let me know. I'll wipe the floor with you.

This statement is backed up by the comics themselves. It's been heavily implied and even outright stated sometimes in many stories that the Joker understands Batman better than anyone else, even more than Batman himself.

 

[Shikamaru]

That´s the problem with movies. Things aren´t real. In real world it wouldn´t be that hard to figure that out.

Bruce Wayne is Charlie Sheen minus the drugs and if he owned The Trump Organization.

Suppose that a vigilante who many people don't even know for sure that he is even human pops up in LA this week going around beating criminals to a pulp. Then it is even established that this vigilante is also the world's greatest detective, one of the world's greatest tacticians, knows 127 martial arts styles, etc.

Now imagine someone comes up to you and tells you that Charlie Sheen is this vigilante. You would either laugh your butt off or have a "WTF" expression on your face, or both. You would have the same reaction if you lived in Gotham and someone told you Bruce Wayne is Batman.

And why exactly is it not that hard to figure it out? Because he's rich? There are tons of rich people in a metropolitan city as big as Gotham. Batman could be any one of them. There is also the possibility that Batman stole a lot of money from the rich to do what he does (obviously this isn't the case but the people of Gotham have no way of knowing that).

 

[The Joker]

This statement is backed up by the comics themselves. It's been heavily implied and even outright stated sometimes in many stories that the Joker understands Batman better than anyone else, even more than Batman himself.

Bruce Wayne is Charlie Sheen minus the drugs and if he owned The Trump Organization.

Suppose that a vigilante who many people don't even know for sure that he is even human pops up in LA this week going around beating criminals to a pulp. Then it is even established that this vigilante is also the world's greatest detective, one of the world's greatest tacticians, knows 127 martial arts styles, etc.

Now imagine someone comes up to you and tells you that Charlie Sheen is this vigilante. You would either laugh your butt off or have a "WTF" expression on your face, or both. You would have the same reaction if you lived in Gotham and someone told you Bruce Wayne is Batman.

And why exactly is it not that hard to figure it out? Because he's rich? There are tons of rich people in a metropolitan city as big as Gotham. Batman could be any one of them. There is also the possibility that Batman stole a lot of money from the rich to do what he does (obviously this isn't the case but the people of Gotham have no way of knowing that).

Exactly

 

[Kazuki]

I know he said the only time he met him was when he went to the orphanage.

Maybe he saw footage. Who knows?

In the real world someone wouldn't figure out Batman's identity based on a facial expression either. Even in the movie world it sounds ridiculous.

Yes they would, without much of a problem. His chin, his mouth and part of his face his exposed. It wouldn´t be difficult.

Yes it does.

No it doesn´t. The director isn´t responsible for your inability to understand things. That´s your problem.

Is that supposed to be a convincing argument? He just knew because kids have an active imagination?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

See, you fail to understand the most simple things. And that´s a big problem. For you, of course.

Let me rephrase it: He didn´t know! He believed he knew! He had that conviction! He had that fixation! Sometimes people believe they know stuff they don´t actually know. He just happened to be right. His fantasy was real. This is plausible because it happens in real life. Sometimes people shoot in the dark and they don´t miss. Strange things happen in reality. If they happen in reality they can also happen in movies. Is it strange that Blake thought Bruce was Batman just by looking at him? Yes, it is strange. Is it impossible? No, it isn´t. And that´s the beauty of Nolan´s movies. Not everything is obvious. Not everything is made to leave no doubts about it. Not everything is explained in detail. Not everything is basic and predictable. For that sort of things you have the avengers.

You make one more personal insult, you sad little troll, and I'll have a moderator come in here and slap you down to size.

And that will destroy my life. With over 30.000 posts and 10 years of membership, you can see that i can´t live without this.

That wasn´t a personal insult. Maybe he was more intelligent thhan someone like you. It´s just a plausible possibility. Nothing more. Maybe he could see things beyond what you can see. Maybe he was more sagacious than most people. It´s not impossible.

Again if it was as simple as that most of Gotham would be onto him.

Maybe, has a kid, he believed it was that simple. He didn´t know who Batman was. He believed he knew, as a kid. Bruce obviously meant something for him for being a successful orphan, and he fantasized about him. He fantasized about an Orphan like him being this mysterious force who spends the night beating up scum. It was a fantasy for him. It was a fantasy in the head of a kid, but it meant something to him, that´s why he sticked with it. It was important to him.

I think you´re a simple minded person, that´s why you have difficulty understanding stuff wich isn´t spoon feed to you.

Again Blake's deduction came from a facial expression of hiding pain. But it's common knowledge Bruce Wayne lost his parents as a kid. So Bruce hiding pain is normal. Natural. It doesn't make him Batman.

In his head, it makes him Batman. For you it doesn´t, but for a kid it did. Rich billionaire in good shape who lost his parents but acts like nothing had ever happened. For Blake it was a mask. He was a masked man even without the cowl. For him that was a clue.

See, let me explain something to you, because i really think that things need to be very well explained to you:

You can believe you actually know everything that can happen inside the human head, but you actually don´t. You don´t know what people can think. You also don´t know the millions of ways someone can come up to a conclusion. You obviously know very little about human nature. Because if you did, you wouldn´t find so impossible that a kid could actually look to someone like Bruce Wayne and create the illusion that a cool rich dude like him, who lost his parents when he was a kid, could very well be a secret vigilante.

And i won´t waste more of my time with you. It´s not worth it. It´s like talking to a dog: They can understand things, but only to a certain point.

 

[Kazuki]

Bruce Wayne is Charlie Sheen minus the drugs and if he owned The Trump Organization.

Suppose that a vigilante who many people don't even know for sure that he is even human pops up in LA this week going around beating criminals to a pulp. Then it is even established that this vigilante is also the world's greatest detective, one of the world's greatest tacticians, knows 127 martial arts styles, etc.

Now imagine someone comes up to you and tells you that Charlie Sheen is this vigilante. You would either laugh your butt off or have a "WTF" expression on your face, or both. You would have the same reaction if you lived in Gotham and someone told you Bruce Wayne is Batman.

And why exactly is it not that hard to figure it out? Because he's rich? There are tons of rich people in a metropolitan city as big as Gotham. Batman could be any one of them. There is also the possibility that Batman stole a lot of money from the rich to do what he does (obviously this isn't the case but the people of Gotham have no way of knowing that).

If someone like Batman appeared in the real world the first people to be investigated would be the richest. Only these people could afford Batman´s gadgets. Bruce Wayne would be investigated, since not only he is the richest, but he is also young and in good shape. Plus, he owns Wayne enterprises wich fabricates gadgets for the police and military.

If they had any footage of Batman, they would compare part of his face with all the suspects and they would easily discover who Batman is.

 

[The Joker]

Maybe he saw footage. Who knows?

Yeah because there was so many instances where someone with a camera was filming Batman so close that you could see his face clearly.

Yes they would, without much of a problem. His chin, his mouth and part of his face his exposed. It wouldn´t be difficult.

Oh my god, will you stop talking nonsense already. Blake never got an intimate close up look at Batman.

No it doesn´t. The director isn´t responsible for your inability to understand things. That´s your problem.

It's the director's job to present an intelligent scenario. He failed. Therefore it's his problem. This scene is subject to much criticism, so clearly he failed. It's his problem.

See, you fail to understand the most simple things. And that´s a big problem. For you, of course.

That wasn't convincing the first time you said that.

Let me rephrase it: He didn´t know! He believed he knew!

I going to snip out the rest of the waffle and cut right to core; yes he knew. He said out straight "Right then I knew who you were". No doubt or uncertainty there.

That should have been obvious to you since he went straight to Wayne Manor and out right told him he knew he was Batman.

And that will destroy my life. With over 30.000 posts and 10 years of membership, you can see that i can´t live without this.

Oh good. I'd hate to think it would ruin your day or anything. After all it's not like a simple discussion about a movie is upsetting you at all.

Oh wait...

That wasn´t a personal insult. Maybe he was more intelligent thhan someone like you. It´s just a plausible possibility. Nothing more. Maybe he could see things beyond what you can see. Maybe he was more sagacious than most people. It´s not impossible.

That's not what you were saying and you know it. From the get go you've been snide, and also implying I'm slow and stupid for not getting the brilliant simplicity of this terrible scene.

Maybe, has a kid, he believed it was that simple. He didn´t know who Batman was. He believed he knew, as a kid. Bruce obviously meant something for him for being a successful orphan, and he fantasized about him. He fantasized about an Orphan like him being this mysterious force who spends the night beating up scum. It was a fantasy for him. It was a fantasy in the head of a kid, but it meant something to him, that´s why he sticked with it. It was important to him.

Or maybe it was exactly the way he SAID it in the scene; "Right then I knew who you were". No fantasy, no kid's imagination, none of the hogwash you are conjecturing. It's spelled out in plain English, he knew he was Batman then and there based on the look.

Nolan is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knees about it.

I think you´re a simple minded person, that´s why you have difficulty understanding stuff wich isn´t spoon feed to you.

I think you're a Nolanite apologist making up ridiculous unfounded scenarios to try and excuse the poor writing in this scene.

In his head, it makes him Batman. For you it doesn´t, but for a kid it did. Rich billionaire in good shape who lost his parents but acts like nothing had ever happened. For Blake it was a mask. He was a masked man even without the cowl. For him that was a clue.

In your head. This is all in your head. Not Blake's. He never implied this was all childhood fantasy deduction. He said outright that because of the look of hidden pain on Bruce's face, the same look he used himself, he knew who he was.

No ifs ands or buts.

See, let me explain something to you, because i really think that things need to be very well explained to you

If I do then I've certainly got the wrong person doing it.

You can believe you actually know everything that can happen inside the human head, but you actually don´t.

I know what was going on inside this person's head because he explained it to us in the scene with no room for doubt.

And i won´t waste more of my time with you. It´s not worth it. It´s like talking to a dog: They can understand things, but only to a certain point.

See what I mean? I must have hit some kind of truth nerve, otherwise you wouldn't be taking this so personally.

Run along. You were done three posts ago as it is.

 

[Shikamaru]

If someone like Batman appeared in the real world the first people to be investigated would be the richest. Only these people could afford Batman´s gadgets. Bruce Wayne would be investigated, since not only he is the richest, but he is also young and in good shape. Plus, he owns Wayne enterprises wich fabricates gadgets for the police and military.

There are so many wrong things in this post that I don't even know where to start.

First, It is illegal to investigate and search people like that without a search warrant. There would be no reason of essentially suspecting Charlie Sheen of being Batman.

Second, even if they search all of Wayne Manor, they won't find anything. Bruce keeps all his Batman stuff deep underground in his cave. Nobody outside of Batman's very close allies even know that he has a cave under his house.

Third, Bruce has genius level intellect and is the world's greatest detective and arguably the top tactician in the Justice League. He knows there are people that would suspect him and has prepared himself for the worst. That's why he always sets up many alibis for himself and puts on the whole playboy act.

Fourth, Wayne Enterprises is a conglomerate company. Gadgets and electronics are only a fraction of the products they produce. Most of the tech Batman has is not even tech that he shares with his company and has developed it by himself for himself.

Fifth and finally, even if there is evidence to show that Batman uses Wayne Enterprises tech, there is also the possibility that Batman stole it and Bruce can easily fake that scenario. Supervillains have stolen WE tech a several number of times in the comics already.

If they had any footage of Batman, they would compare part of his face with all the suspects and they would easily discover who Batman is.

Matching jaws is not that easily done especially since there would be a ridiculous among of suspects in the first place. But more importantly, good luck getting any footage of Batman, let alone footage where you can clearly see his face.

 

[Kazuki]

First, It is illegal to investigate and search people like that without a search warrant. There would be no reason of essentially suspecting Charlie Sheen of being Batman.

The only thing they would need to do is compare footage. Put a pic of Batman and Bale next to each other and you will see it is the same person. I´m not really sure if the FBI would have much problem getting permission to do this kind of investigation.

Oh yeah, and Bruce is a genius. He is perfect. He would find a way to cover is identity. That´s why this discussion doesn´t even make sense. Batman doesn´t exist, and there isn´t even a remote possibility of someone habing all the skills of Batman, in so many different areas.

 

[Kazuki]

Matching jaws is not that easily done especially since there would be a ridiculous among of suspects in the first place. But more importantly, good luck getting any footage of Batman, let alone footage where you can clearly see his face.

In The Dark Knight Rises there were plenty of chances of getting footage of Batman´s face. Telling otherwise is foolish.

 

[Shikamaru]

The only thing they would need to do is compare footage. Put a pic of Batman and Bale next to each other and you will see it is the same person. I´m not really sure if the FBI would have much problem getting permission to do this kind of investigation.

THERE IS NO FOOTAGE! You can't get footage of Batman. Batman spends 99% of his time in the shadows and never makes public appearances. The closest thing people get are pictures from far away or really blurry pictures of him moving. That's about it.

Oh yeah, and Bruce is a genius. He is perfect. He would find a way to cover is identity. That´s why this discussion doesn´t even make sense. Batman doesn´t exist, and there isn´t even a remote possibility of someone habing all the skills of Batman, in so many different areas.

So Batman is a fictional character therefore this discussion is pointless. Nice cop-out argument. By your logic, we might as well stop going on this site altogether.

In The Dark Knight Rises there were plenty of chances of getting footage of Batman´s face. Telling otherwise is foolish.

You never specified which version of Batman you were referring to. All you said was "In the real world it won't be hard to figure out Bruce Wayne is Batman". I assumed you were talking about Batman in general AKA comic book Batman.

Even in TDKR though, there was no point where a civilian or officer would take a close-up picture of Batman's face. Even if he did, it wouldn't even matter at that point since Bruce planned to fake the death of both Batman and Bruce Wayne after saving Gotham.

 

[Kazuki]

"Even in TDKR though, there was no point where a civilian or officer would take a close-up picture of Batman's face. Even if he did, it wouldn't even matter at that point since Bruce planned to fake the death of both Batman and Bruce Wayne after saving Gotham."

Really? Surrounded by cops, lights and helicopter, no one could have taken any kind of footage? What about street cameras? Geez, you really underestimate today´s technology and the police force. And you really have to, in order to believe Batman could actually exist.

 

[Kazuki]

Oh, and btw: Not only in Batman forever, but also in several comics, people have access to pictures of Batman.

 

[Shikamaru]

"Even in TDKR though, there was no point where a civilian or officer would take a close-up picture of Batman's face. Even if he did, it wouldn't even matter at that point since Bruce planned to fake the death of both Batman and Bruce Wayne after saving Gotham."

Really? Surrounded by cops, lights and helicopter, no one could have taken any kind of footage? What about street cameras? Geez, you really underestimate today´s technology and the police force. And you really have to, in order to believe Batman could actually exist.

Close-up footage of his face. I've said this a gazillion times already. Of course you can get some footage of Batman in TDKR. But nothing to clearly show the features on his face from really close-up. You would need someone to take a picture of him while they're really close to him. There is no point in TDKR when someone is that close to Batman and is able to take a picture due to either fighting him or fighting with him a large group of people.

And when did I say that I believe Batman can exist in real life? Wow, it's like I'm talking to a wall. I specifically said that I don't think he could actually exist. But if the Batman from the comics actually existed, there would be no way to catch him unless you send a whole army after him.

Oh, and btw: Not only in Batman forever, but also in several comics, people have access to pictures of Batman.

You're sourcing Batman Forever? A film known for watering down Batman and the Batman mythos?

Yes, people do have pictures. But they're all either blurry or taken from far away. There is no up-close clear picture of Batman's face. I specifically said this. Do you even read what I type? Again, it's like I'm talking to a wall.

 

[Kazuki]

You're sourcing Batman Forever? A film known for watering down Batman and the Batman mythos?

Yes, people do have pictures. But they're all either blurry or taken from far away. There is no up-close clear picture of Batman's face. I specifically said this. Do you even read what I type? Again, it's like I'm talking to a wall.

You´re wrong. In comics Batman appears many many times in public and his physical features are fully displayed.

If nothing serves as evidence to you, there´s nothing else i can do.

Close-up footage of his face.

With modern technology you can achieve that with the right camera. You don´t need to be to close to the subject. The FBI would do the trick.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

LOL look alike? Did Blake get up face to face with Batman and study his jaw line?



If it was that easy to deduce Batman's identity then most of Gotham would have it figured out. Hence why Bruce established alibis for his whereabouts like the cruise in TDK, and puts on the whole playboy facade to account for what he does with his time and money.

Blake didn't figure out Batman's identity like this. He simply recognized a look on his face. The look of someone hiding emotional pain like he did. People hide their emotional pain all the time. It doesn't make them Batman.

It was an idiotic scene.



No, he said the kids made up stories about him. Blake said he knew who he really was because of the look on his face. Hence why he knew the truth, and the kids and their stories, stories as in more than one different tale, was just that. Stories.

Aaargh. We're back to this again, aren't we? I haven't read most of Kazuki's post but I'm sure there are a lot of his points (on how one can deduce that Bruce Wayne is Batman) I'm going to disagree with, but I'll be on his side on defending the scene.

First point:

Blake, as a child, along with his fellow orphans, has made up stories about Bruce Wayne. This includes him being Batman. But to the other kids, "these were just stories". Most kids didn't linger on this line of thought. But not Blake. To him, having the same emotional experience as Bruce Wayne made him sure that this was not just some "kid's wild imagination" to him; He was sure, he "knew at that moment", as a kid, that Bruce Wayne is Batman.

BUT...

Let's not just focus on what he said or on that exact scene like so many of the detractors here would like to do just to, what, make us fans who like the film inferior to them? Let's also focus on how Blake was presented all throughout the film, on what Blake's characteristic is which is a natural detective. You know patterns, Gordon said. And with a lot of years, eight to be exact, between his last public appearance and the coming of Bane to his home city, it's a huge possibility with him being a natural detective that he worked on that "initial hunch" that he has since he was kid.

I've been repeating this point every time this particular issue was brought up so I'm sorry if it seems I was hammering down my point.

 

[Snow Queen]

THERE IS NO FOOTAGE! You can't get footage of Batman. Batman spends 99% of his time in the shadows and never makes public appearances. The closest thing people get are pictures from far away or really blurry pictures of him moving. That's about it.

You missed the definitive interpretation of Batman on screen that proved that Batman does make public appearances:

[YT]dcukDDDhuYk[/YT]

If we can't trust Batman & Robin, what can we trust?

 

[BatLobster]

I definitely got the impression that one of the stories the orphans made up about Bruce was that he was Batman. Why wouldn't it be? It's like the coolest possible "legend" you could tell about him if you're a kid from Gotham. I always felt that was the thing that originally planted the idea in Blake's head. That's the point of Blake saying, "To the other kids that's all they were, just stories". It implies a connection there.

 

[The Joker]

You're sourcing Batman Forever? A film known for watering down Batman and the Batman mythos?

Yes, people do have pictures. But they're all either blurry or taken from far away. There is no up-close clear picture of Batman's face. I specifically said this. Do you even read what I type? Again, it's like I'm talking to a wall.

LOL exactly. You might as well mention Batman and Robin, too, where they show up to the Botanical Gardens party and stand on stage in full view of everyone.

EDIT: Gotham's Knight just posted it lol.

Aaargh. We're back to this again, aren't we? I haven't read most of Kazuki's post but I'm sure there are a lot of his points (on how one can deduce that Bruce Wayne is Batman) I'm going to disagree with, but I'll be on his side on defending the scene.

Amazing you claim you didn't read his post yet you just repeated what he said verbatim. Go back and read the whole discussion and you'll see everything you said was adequately and factually refuted.

 

[Shikamaru]

You´re wrong. In comics Batman appears many many times in public and his physical features are fully displayed.

If nothing serves as evidence to you, there´s nothing else i can do.

*sigh*

I have nothing to say to this statement other than the fact that it is completely false. Also once again ignoring the fact that matching jaws is not that easy in the first place but whatever.

With modern technology you can achieve that with the right camera. You don´t need to be to close to the subject. The FBI would do the trick.

Again, if they can spot him in the first place. Even then, again, matching jaws is....oh forget it. Why do I even bother?

You missed the definitive interpretation of Batman on screen that proved that Batman does make public appearances:

[YT]dcukDDDhuYk[/YT]

If we can't trust Batman & Robin, what can we trust?

Indeed.