Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Phaedrus45]

Amnesia only means he's forgotten things before a certain point. He wouldn't necessarily have trouble remembering anything that happened afterwards. And that would include anything he learns about Iron Man. And Rafael doesn't need to read about Iron Man since he could just watch him on tv. And as much as Tony gets on the news, it shouldn't be hard for Helix to figure out his basic powers (and more if he watches a spanish speaking channel).

Just by watching Iron Man on tv tells an opponent nothing about the various uses he or his armor has. Plus, what's the chance that the few spanish speaking channels in New York would have much of anything on Iron Man within the 24 hour prep time?

The problem with this is that everything is an external stimuli. Once Helix's body detects the gas, it will spontaneously adapt (he may no longer need to breath, or maybe can breath the gas with no harm). Fighting Helix is much like fighting Lifeguard because, whatever you use against him, his body will adapt.

Combine that with Rafael's ability to adapt his body at will, and Tony will be facing a formidable enemy. One that can instantly resist Iron Man's attacks, and create his own attacks at will.

This isn't actuallly fully true. When I thought of this match, I thought maybe Helix could be surrounded by a type of foam to make him unable to battle. Then, I found the following information:

The Scarlet Spider was able to wrap Helix in a web cocoon, and using his stinger dart launchers to inject Rafael with the same hypermorphic serum that knocked him unconscious in their earlier battle. The serum worked and Helix reverted to his normal form.

This shows that he can be enveloped in a type of foam that would harden around him. Plus, he can be knocked unconscious. It's been done before; so, the hypothesis on how great his powers would work simply do not hold up. Iron Man would have information on this, no doubt. He could simply redo what's been done before.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

Oh my Mastermind, how wonderful art thee. Magnus, how I wish you mattered more, not really. Shall we commence with a breakdown?

Mastermind: Illusion generation

Magnus: Electromagnetic manipulation, Force field generation, Energy blasts, Flight, Ability to turn living beings to metal


This like most matches involving Mastermind seems like a clear win for the other guy, but like always, its not always the case.

I'll be quite frank young chap. Magnus outclasses Mastermind in every category. If this was a physical battle, it would be a clear win. But tis' a battle of the minds y'see so Mastermind will overcome such follies and win outright.

Alcatraz is a great location for Mastermind. The lazy way to win is for Mastermind to create an illusion and have Magnus walk into the water and drown. I mean, only the great Clint Eastwood would survive that. And the lazy way it is. A more elegant way would be for Mastermind to create an illusion that would cause the man to turn his powers onto himself and pretty much destroy himself, because Mastermind is all about class.

Mastermind wins.

To put it simpy, Mastermind is better in a group than on his own. Mastermind has two big things working against him: 1) Magnus will be aware of who Mastermind is, and since his helmet works against telepaths, it's very possible that Mastermind's illusions cannot work on Magnus, and 2) Magnus will know Mastermind will try illusions, and he can simply destroy the entire prison of Alcatraz, which would either kill or render Mastermind unconscious.

That has never stopped Mastermind from taking on the X-Men effectively before. Considering he's taken on Jean Grey in her Phoenix phase I highly doubt that magnus would present much of a problem.

But, Jean Grey is much different from Magnus(aka, Magneto). We know Magneto cannot be effected by Jean Grey, and like I pointed out, that stands to reason that the same might be true with Mastermind. And, even if Magnus did think it was possible, Magnus can instantly destroy Alcatraz the second he arrives there.

Winner = Magnus

 

[Phaedrus45]

Warlock vs. Jack Of Hearts:

I've been putting this battle off for a while. Not because I think Jack of Hearts will lose it; but, because this match is almost a draw in the way it will play out, especially since Warlock is without his gem.

Power bios follow:

Warlock:

Strength Level:

Warlock possesses superhuman strength, allowing him to lift (press) 4 tons. He can use his cosmic powers to increase his strength to a maximum of 40 tons for less than one hour. The incarnation of the Magus must have possessed even greater strength, given that he could engage Thanos in hand-to-hand combat (Thanos himself could fight the Thing and Thor simultaneously, and fought Odin to a standstill).
Known Powers: Adam Warlock possesses a number of superhuman properties and powers derived from his artificially determined genetic structure. His bone and muscle tissue is denser than human, endowing him with superhuman strength and resilience. Among his body's special adaptations are an enclave of cells able to tap and transform cosmic energy for personal use. Warlock could use this energy to enhance his physical strength, endurance, and powers of recuperation. He could also employ cosmic energy to negate the force of gravity beneath him, enabling him to fly. In an Earth-like atmosphere, Warlock was able to attain the speed of sound (770 miles per hour). He could use his cosmic energy to locate and enter natural space-warps (discontinuities in the fabric of space) in order to traverse interstellar space. He can also project cosmic energy from his hands as concussive force.
Abilities: Warlock gained a great deal of first-hand experience at hand-to-hand combat over the course of his life, and eventually became quite formidable. Warlock also is an accomplished self-taught philosopher. He is also able to fly, even in space.

Jack of Hearts:

AbilitiesConcussive blasts,
Flight,
Ability to survive unaided in space,Sensitive brain that senses motion, Increased intelligence and memory

I'd give a longer description of his powers; but, I think by now the voters have a decent idea of how they work.

What works well for Jack is the fact he'll have information about Warlock and Alcatraz. This isn't true with Warlock. I've tried to look up any appearances Warlock and Jack have had together, and was unable to come up with anything. Jack will go for a quick knockout. Jack can use his "sensitive brain that senses motion" to locate Warlock pretty quickly. Then, like with fighting the Hulk, he'll use his flight speed to knock through walls and knock Warlock unconscious. Now, it's possible this will be a knockdown, drag out fight. But, I point out with Jack of Hearts previous battle with the Hulk, he didn't get rendered unconscious....and, Hulk is clearly stronger than Warlock. In physical combat, I'm betting on Jack. (Although, I'd be sure my opponent would give the advantage to his opponent.)

Either way, not much to say about this match. It will be up to the voters to decide. Warlock is definitely the guy to beat in this contest, and a betting man would pick him to get to the end. It just hurts him that his opponent in Round 3 is someone so very similiar to his own abilities. Plus, add the fact that Jack will have knowledge of location and who he's fighting, I'm just hoping it gives him that slight edge that's sometimes needed in CoM.

Winner = Jack of Hearts

 

[Darthphere]

1) Magnus will be aware of who Mastermind is, and since his helmet works against telepaths

Woah woah woah, hold your horses. Helmet? I haven't read much Exiles, but the few issues I have read he's NEVER wearing a helmet. I mean never. And his bio says nothing about it as fas as I know. Trying to pull a fast one here?

But, Jean Grey is much different from Magnus(aka, Magneto). We know Magneto cannot be effected by Jean Grey, and like I pointed out, that stands to reason that the same might be true with Mastermind. And, even if Magnus did think it was possible, Magnus can instantly destroy Alcatraz the second he arrives there.

Winner = Magnus

Again, he relies heavily on his helmet to block telepathic attacks, and as far as I know, Magnus has no helmet, he's vulnerable to Mastermind's mind attacks.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Woah woah woah, hold your horses. Helmet? I haven't read much Exiles, but the few issues I have read he's NEVER wearing a helmet. I mean never. And his bio says nothing about it as fas as I know. Trying to pull a fast one here?

Not at all. Since Magnus is the son of Magneto and Rogue and has their respective powers, he would know the way to block someone with telepathy. I would be sure his father and mother trained him in dealing with someone with these abilities. It isn't that far fetched to figure he's be able to either come up with the same means or have the same means. (Remember, his appearance in Exiles wasn't very long. Since it was only the one mission and he died, he would be taken right before he was taken by the Exiles. He would have access to this and the information about Mastermind.) Basically, Mastermind is totally screwed with a very bad luck of the draw.

Again, he relies heavily on his helmet to block telepathic attacks, and as far as I know, Magnus has no helmet, he's vulnerable to Mastermind's mind attacks.

Again, when he was taken by the Exiles, he was taken from his home where it's very likely he had a helmet, would have access to a helmet, or know what is needed to fight someone of Mastermind's abilities. Mastermind is severely hindered in this match by fighting someone who would know of Mastermind and been trained by Magneto and Rogue on how to fight someone with his abilities.

Winner = Magnus

 

[Darthphere]

We can't assume he has a helmet, at all. Thats like against the rules. He's never been shown wearing a helmet or even having one, so IMO this shouldn't even be discussed. There is no helmet.

 

[Phaedrus45]

We can't assume he has a helmet, at all. Thats like against the rules. He's never been shown wearing a helmet or even having one, so IMO this shouldn't even be discussed. There is no helmet.

This is not in any way against the rules. You say we can't assume he has a helmet; but, I argue you can't assume he doesn't. I've provided enough reason why he would either have access to a Magneto-type helmet or know how to make one. (If I was his father, Magneto, I think I would tell my son how to protect himself against many threats, including a telepath. And, if he has some of your powers, it stands to reason he would protect you the same as he's protected himself.) Especially when you have a character who has had so few appearances, you have to hypothesize sometimes. It just is whether the voters believe the hypothesis you explain to them. To me, I've provided a very logical reason.

 

[Darthphere]

What you're trying to do is like someone that has The Thing and saying "Oh we can assume he has the Ultimate Nullifier with him". No you can't.

And the whole you can't assume he doesn't argument is weak. He's never been portrayed in a comic wearing a helmet or even near a helmet. Therefore, there is no helmet, its that easy. I don't want to sound like an ******* frankly, but if this is allowed than anyone can come into matches and just make things up. "Oh Wolverine is wearing a force field Beast created" "You can't assume he doesn't have one" So as I said, the use of a helmet should be eliminated from this match. I deal with facts, and the fact is, he doesn't wear a helmet.

 

[Phaedrus45]

What you're trying to do is like someone that has The Thing and saying "Oh we can assume he has the Ultimate Nullifier with him". No you can't.

That's apples and oranges. If you want, you can ask JH or Wiegeabo for a decision. But, the facts remain Magnus was around for a very limited time, and much of what might be true about his character can only be debated about. I've given valid reasons for a few things: 1) Magnus would know about Mastermind, especially considering he's the son of Magneto and Rogue. 2) Magneto and Rogue would train their son in dealing with various threats, including people with telepathic abilities. 3) A father and a mother would want to protect their children, just as I would teach my children about things I've learned in life. It isn't that far of a hypothesis that Magneto and Rogue, as parents, would prepare their son for such a person. 4) Magnus would know how to battle Mastermind, as his parents would have taught him.

We can argue about the helmet; but, that still doesn't even touch on the subject that Magnus would a) know how to combat someone like Mastermind and b) he can instantly take out the structure they're in without bothering with Mastermind and his powers.

And the whole you can't assume he doesn't argument is weak. He's never been portrayed in a comic wearing a helmet or even near a helmet. Therefore, there is no helmet, its that easy. I don't want to sound like an ******* frankly, but if this is allowed than anyone can come into matches and just make things up. "Oh Wolverine is wearing a force field Beast created" "You can't assume he doesn't have one" So as I said, the use of a helmet should be eliminated from this match. I deal with facts, and the fact is, he doesn't wear a helmet.

This is two different cases. It will be up to the voters to determine if just this one part of my argument is valid. (And, I stress this is a very small part of why Magnus would defeat Mastermind.) We have tons of information about Wolverine, Beast, ect... We just don't have that with Magnus. To me, I'm not doing that big of a stretch. Again, you can PM Wiegeabo and JH for a decision and ask them to read our debate. In fact, I will contact Wiegeabo right now. I know JH is probably pretty busy; so, we might hear from him right away.

 

[Darthphere]

The fact that he was only around for a short time is not a blank check to start assuming things. Thats a huge grey area where assuming can get out of hand like I've previously stated. All these debates have stayed within the character bios and previous appearances in comics, things that can be backed up: FACT. Not assumption. So unless you can provide a panel of a comic, a source on the internet where it states that Magnus has a helmet as fact, than any other argument towards that should be eliminated. Assuming is something we can all do, and we all do it. We assume our character can take this hero down by ounching him that way, but when it comes to actual equipment or costume garb, there is no grey area. Look at the Nova bio, it states specifically what he wears and what it does. It doesn't do that for Magnus.

 

[Phaedrus45]

The fact that he was only around for a short time is not a blank check to start assuming things. Thats a huge grey area where assuming can get out of hand like I've previously stated. All these debates have stayed within the character bios and previous appearances in comics, things that can be backed up: FACT. Not assumption. So unless you can provide a panel of a comic, a source on the internet where it states that Magnus has a helmet as fact, than any other argument towards that should be eliminated. Assuming is something we can all do, and we all do it. We assume our character can take this hero down by ounching him that way, but when it comes to actual equipment or costume garb, there is no grey area. Look at the Nova bio, it states specifically what he wears and what it does. It doesn't do that for Magnus.

Again, I disagree. We do have debates be within reason, and I feel my debate is within reason. I don't state he has a helmet as fact...I state that this is my hypothesis, and it would be up to the voters to decide if they want to believe it or not. Also, the fact we debate these matches show that we are all assuming what would happen if one fought the other. But, like I said, I PMed Wiegeabo, and his decision will be ok with me.

(Again, I point out to voters that this helmet argument takes away from many points I've made on why Magnus wouldn't have a problem with Mastermind. Even without a helmet, I easily contend that Magnus would know how to handle a character like Mastermind.)

 

[wiegeabo]

Reading over everything it looks like there are two issues:
Does Magnus have a helmet like his fathers?
Does Magnus have his fathers teachings about how to avoid/block telepathy?

On the first matter, I have to say no. Magnus is suffering from the problem of lack of information. He appeared in a couple of issues, and we saw a bit of his backstory, but that's it. Since Magnus never used, had, or mentioned a helmet, I don't think we can allow him to just have one now.

On the second matter, being taught by Magneto is a much safer assumption. When it comes to equipment, unless a character is known for being able to build new things (Forge, Reed), we shouldn't just assume they would have access to something they've never been shown using before. On the other hand, when it comes to experience, there are plenty of examples of characters learning things from family/teammates. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective with their powers. I don't think it would be any different here with Mags and Rouge teaching their son everything they know.

As for Magneto ever being teamed with Mastermind in his universe, or teaching Magnus how to protect his mind from telepathy, or build a helmet will probably have to be left to the voters to decide. There is so little evidence one way or the other that making 'safe' assumptions won't work. It'll have to come down to debating skill.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Thanks Wiegeabo. And, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It's my belief Daddy and Mommy would have taught Magnus the "tools of the trade," so to speak. I sincerely believe Magnus would know how to have something to block Mastermind's powers or how to combat him.

 

[kytrigger]

I never said he was as powerful as 616 Loki. So if that is what we are debating I concede. 616 Loki is more powerful.

Okay, I just wanted to make that part clear to the voters since he is a somewhat obscure character.

I cannot answer that because I do not know but I believe that there has been boilogical life found in volcanoes. In any case, I am not talking him fighting Sunfire in this form....just touching her, however fleeting the touch.

There probably is some life that can do that, but remember, he has to understand the organism he is changing into including hoow they function. If he doesn't really know of this bug, then he can't become it.

[/quote]At that point he could touch her by retracting the crystallin shielding from one small part of the finger: lets not forget he just needs to touch her and he will be immune to all her powers as well as possessing them. [/quote] And the second his shield goies down, his fingers melt. Remmber, she can heat things up to almost 1,000,000 degrees. It doesn't take long for htat to take off an arm.

He is not as good as the original but he still can use them effectively when he needs to.

True

The battle is in a prison so it is not like she will be charging throughout the day.

Alcratraz is an island. Whiel much of it is a prison, there is still plenty of outdorr space. Considering the fact that she doesn't know her opponent and will alread be on the defensive, it is quite common for her to go outside and take to flight. She's a flier, she is good at it and it generally gives her an advantage, which she would want in the beginning of the fight.

The one thing is she has no idea he is a shapeshifter. So why would she even kill off everything she sees. Imagine a very beautiful bird, she would just burn off the bird. I do not think so. Sunfire is a gentle lesbian soul. Not a cold blooded killer and she would have no idea who she is facing. Sunfire does not enjoy killing as far as I know.

True, she doesn't know HJ, but one of her powers makes it much easier to find him and follow him. Her infared vision. Flying above alcatraz she would just look at everythign in infared so she could see inside the buildings. When she sees a human size heat panel, suddently shift into somethign the size of a mouse, she will not only know he is a shap-shifter, but then be following him.

Also, HJ was created basically by lab experiments, it is very possible that he actually gives off a small does of radiation, in which case she can instantly track him since she can do that thing with radiation.

Defensive yes, kill off everything I highly doubt. She will not kill off the small critters as a precaution. She is young and relatively inexperienced and would have no idea HJ would a shapeshifter.

Right, she won't kill off everything in the area (unless she really felt she had to), but giving off great heat in a 10 foot diameter is okay. If a beautiful bird is stupid enough to sense immense heat and still fly into her heat path, it deserves to die...Darwin told me.

[It also shows that she was killed by him, so the experience did not help her much. Plus HJ absorbs 100% of the power he absorbs and not 50% like Mimic.

Actually, she was killed saving a bunch of people form a falling building during that fight. And whiel Mimic only uses 50% of their powers, he has shown to be much better at using their powers than HJ, PLUS that was Mimic with a brood in him, making him even more powerful than usual.


Winner- Sunfire

 

[Ahura Mazda]

There probably is some life that can do that, but remember, he has to understand the organism he is changing into including hoow they function. If he doesn't really know of this bug, then he can't become it.

I am just saying that he probably would know of it as he comes from an advanced timeline.

And the second his shield goies down, his fingers melt. Remmber, she can heat things up to almost 1,000,000 degrees. It doesn't take long for htat to take off an arm.

You are assuming he is in human form when he does that. What if he was a fly? And just note it does nt take long to touch someone.

In any case, if he is invulnerable because of the crystal it is game over as he could just as easily become a predator coverred in crystal armour.

Alcratraz is an island. Whiel much of it is a prison, there is still plenty of outdorr space. Considering the fact that she doesn't know her opponent and will alread be on the defensive, it is quite common for her to go outside and take to flight. She's a flier, she is good at it and it generally gives her an advantage, which she would want in the beginning of the fight.

She is going to take a bit of time getting outside. Alcatraz is a big prison. And I think she would be more worried about searching for her opponent. In any case, if that is what she wants to do HJ could just wait her out.

True, she doesn't know HJ, but one of her powers makes it much easier to find him and follow him. Her infared vision. Flying above alcatraz she would just look at everythign in infared so she could see inside the buildings. When she sees a human size heat panel, suddently shift into somethign the size of a mouse, she will not only know he is a shap-shifter, but then be following him.

She will not immediately do this and he will probably have already changed. Plus her vision does not enable to see through walls. Her infra red is not that powerful.

Also, HJ was created basically by lab experiments, it is very possible that he actually gives off a small does of radiation, in which case she can instantly track him since she can do that thing with radiation.

That is stretching it and there is no way she can identify different wavelengths in radiation. Infra red vision can show different levels of heat as it differs from outside temparature. It does not differentiate between different types of radiation if they have the same heat signatures.

Right, she won't kill off everything in the area (unless she really felt she had to), but giving off great heat in a 10 foot diameter is okay. If a beautiful bird is stupid enough to sense immense heat and still fly into her heat path, it deserves to die...Darwin told me.

You are telling me she will kill a bird or beautiful butterfly instead of trying to have it land on her like most girls.....if she sees something beautiful she will reach out to it. That is her way.

Actually, she was killed saving a bunch of people form a falling building during that fight. And whiel Mimic only uses 50% of their powers, he has shown to be much better at using their powers than HJ, PLUS that was Mimic with a brood in him, making him even more powerful than usual.

She was killed in a fight with him. That is all I am saying.


Winner- Halloween Jack

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Darthphere]

Reading over everything it looks like there are two issues:
Does Magnus have a helmet like his fathers?
Does Magnus have his fathers teachings about how to avoid/block telepathy?

On the first matter, I have to say no. Magnus is suffering from the problem of lack of information. He appeared in a couple of issues, and we saw a bit of his backstory, but that's it. Since Magnus never used, had, or mentioned a helmet, I don't think we can allow him to just have one now.

On the second matter, being taught by Magneto is a much safer assumption. When it comes to equipment, unless a character is known for being able to build new things (Forge, Reed), we shouldn't just assume they would have access to something they've never been shown using before. On the other hand, when it comes to experience, there are plenty of examples of characters learning things from family/teammates. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective with their powers. I don't think it would be any different here with Mags and Rouge teaching their son everything they know.

As for Magneto ever being teamed with Mastermind in his universe, or teaching Magnus how to protect his mind from telepathy, or build a helmet will probably have to be left to the voters to decide. There is so little evidence one way or the other that making 'safe' assumptions won't work. It'll have to come down to debating skill.

All you had to say is Darth is right.

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Iron Man

*Jack Of Hearts

*Magnus-Exiles

*Sunfire=Exiles - (My hardest decision this week. In the end, I kept picturing Halloween Jack turning into a fly, going up to Sunfire, and getting ZAPPED before ever touching her.)

 

[Harlekin]

Iron Man - I'd think the New Warriors would've given Iron Man the necessary info at some point.
Adam Warlock - Prep-time is an advantage, and I'd think healing in a cocoon would suffice as a defeat, as it takes him out of the fight for a bit. Too bad we couldn't get more of a debate for these two characters. Tough decision either way.
Mastermind - Too bad Magnus was only around for 2 issues.
Halloween Jack - I think he can pull that touch off.

 

[Midnight Ice]

Iron Man
Adam Warlock
Magnus-Exiles
Sunfire-Exiles

 

[kytrigger]

Sunfire
Magnus-really tough decision
Iron Man
Adam Warlock- although this would be a totally badass fight that i'd love to see

 

[Darren Daring]

Iron Man
Warlock
Magnus
Sunfire

 

[wiegeabo]

Iron Man
Adam Warlock
Mastermind
Sunfire (tough match)

 

[JewishHobbit]

Iron Man - I was going with Helix until the Scarlet Spider comment.
Master Mind
Sunfire - I love HJ, but I think he's one of those characters with mass potential and no pay off.
Jack of Hearts

 

[hippy fascist]

Sunfire (Great character but just don't think he could win this)
Iron Man (Lack of info hurts helix here)
Mastermind (I'm not buying the helmet as it was never shown)
Jack Of Hearts (Woah, never though I'd vote that way, good job Phaed)