REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch
Hippy said:
Also you refer to him as the next spider-man which is kinda fitting given that torch is practically a cosmic character whereas gravity is strictly street level
Cosmic? Don't make me laugh. He doesn't come anywhere near that level. The nova attack is borderline cosmic, but not even that.
Inexperience is not an advantage, inexperience causes people to lose fights they should easily win just read any early spidey comics for proof of that. This would be a tough match for gravity 3-4 years down the line. At this stage, it's pretty much impossible.
Impossible's a pretty big word. I never touted inexperience as an advantage. I was referring to his potential, and how his inexperience factors into that. He's much more liable to pull off big power moves suddenly, as opposed to the Torch, who knows the ins and outs of his powers. Everything is a learning process for Gravity, which is both an advantage as well as a disadvantage.
Fantastic, he beat a brawler in a brawl, wrong kind of fight since Johnny doesn't do hand to hand. Irrelevant
It's not about him being a brawler. It's about knocking somebody twice your size and twice your strength through a couple of walls. This means Gravity needs to connect all of one time to knock Johnny out.
Rhino is a moron (particularly since this happened adfter flowers for rhino) Johnny will not allow this to happen and since he can travle at speeds exceeeding the speed of sound he'll be playing the hit and run game here. Gravity won't have a chance to use this since as soon as he starts trying torch can be a few miles away in seconds.
I wasn't using it as a strategy, I was noting it as a feat of his. Using your gravity powers to jump over Rhino, grab him by his horn and throw him away is not something that anyone can do. Heck, something like that is hard for even Spidey to pull off, if he can even do such a thing. Also, going the speed of sound in Castle Doom would quite frankly, be the stupidest thing for the Torch to do. That means smacking into a wall when he turns his first corner. Neither can really use the hit and run tactic here.
If off panel wins were relevant squirrel girl would win this contest. Unless you can tell me how he did it this is somewhat moot.
Again, just a feat listing. It's nothing special, but should be noted. Gravity also isn't a joke character.
Someone else using your powers does not equate to you being able to use them to that extent. The black death fight actually helps me since it proves that gravity can be just as naive as johnny
Actually, Gravity shows being capable of it when he turns the effect back on Black Death. Also, I hardly see how the Black Death thing helps you. Yes, Gravity is more naive than Torch. Duh, he's been in the game far longer than Gravity has. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be focussed on winning. Being tricked by a supervillain isn't really anything new for a superhero, especially not in the Black Death case, as it took him several months in which he earned Gravity's trust, costuming himself as a superhero.
"(Johhny) has sufficient ambient heat to vaporize projectiles that approach him. The Torch has been observed to vaporize rocks, bottles, bullets, and even steel girders in fractions of a second;"
This also helps with your fisfight analogy since gravity would suffer major burns just touching the torch
Not if he wraps himself in a nice handy dandy force field. It only takes one punch anyway. The throwing of walls, boulders, or even just plain bringing the house down on Johnny could serve as a distraction, but also a way to end the match (such as by bringing the castle down).
A compliment...this just once again proves that gravity is, like spidey, a street-level hero whereas Johnny is practically a cosmic level hero.
It was a joke, something I thought would be funny to note. Take a breath. And again, Torch is far removed from being a cosmic hero. Silver Surfer? That's a cosmic hero. Thor? That's a cosmic-type hero. Quasar? That's a cosmic hero. The Torch is nowhere near that ballpark.
Probably but torch has the kind of experience that within a minute or so he'll be able to assess the threat and step up his game. Gravity is already pushing the limits of his current abilities so this won't really effect the fight overall...
Which he's done, exactly, when? The Torch is a poseur, the kind of guy that'll play with his opponent. If he has no reason to suspect a threat, he will try and toy with the enemy. In this case, by the time the Torch finally gets the hint of stepping up his game, he'll have been knocked cold by Gravity.
No, he'll know what the newspapers and TV have reported which will be based on second hand accounts and theory. The average person in the marvel u (which is about the level gravity's info will be at) Knows he can control fire and fly, but not the extent of these powers.
There are Fantastic Four comics, endorsed by the FF, which would depict the Torch's powers. Heck, there's probably an encyclopedia article about the Torch, detailing some of his feats. Lord knows there'd be enough geeks in the Torch fanclub to do so. The battles of the Fantastic Four are practically always televized, and Gravity will know what Torch is capable of.
Is gravity an avenger? Does he have shield clearance?
No so these files you speak of will NOT be available to him. He's going to have very basic info at best, more than the torch granted but only slightly
Again, there's the geek sites. There's the official publicity packet brought out by the Fantastic Four and so many more venues for Gravity to be able to look up info about the Torch. There's literally a wealth of knowledge before him.
Yes he does need to, but won't be able to since torch is simply too fast and knows castle doom too well, even if gravity somehow got away, he'd be trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and would doubless get lost very quickly. Johnny on the other hand knows castle doom only too well. He will find gravity quickly and barbecue the little punk.
Knows Castle Doom too well? He knows the places he's fought in, and the prison he's slept in while captive of Doom. He'd hardly know the extent of Doom's castle, besides from the short time they spent there in Authorative Action, a time in which I doubt he went through the castle, keeping every little bit of the place in his mind. He might have a little advantage, but not much.
All the enemy's he's faced so far have been low level, we still don't know the extent of his forcefields and I strongly doubt they can hold back johnny at full power.
And Johnny will never, again,
never operate at full power in a match like this. He's a hero, remember?
With regards the gravity powers, he's in a fight against a VERY tough opponent, he'll stick to what he knows so if you can find any scans of him performing something that would work against Johnny I'll accept it but I'd need some kind of proof of him doing it before
Something that would work against Johnny? Knocking his ass
out. Beyond that, it's been shown that he can ward off attacks using his gravity powers, so he should be able to dodge the Torch.
When was the last time you saw Johnny in a brawl, won't happen and besides, he has superspeed meaning gravity wouldn't be able to get close enough to him
Johnny has the odd tendency of not sitting back and flinging fireballs at a person. He always has to get up close and personal, even when he's specifically told not to (since the Doom fight in Authorative Action, for one). He has superspeed when being able to fly in open air. In a confined space like the castle, superspeed just means his death.
a) Finding the water main ( this is unknown territory and a VAST buidling, he simply won't have time)
I can grant you this, but I would assume Doom has these kinds of things very handy, in case, y'know, the Fantastic Four attack him?
b) outrunning johnny (I say again CAN MOVE FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF SOUND)
And even using that kind of speed would mean his death, as he races headlong into a wall or into one of Doom's death traps. Superspeed isn't going to be of much use. Besides that, the Torch would allow Gravity a little headstart. Let's be honest here, Torch would be laughing his ass off at the fact this guy is challenging him, and let him do his thing. It's typical reckless Torch.
c) The water will only affect johnny for seconds. Seriously it'd be like those trick birthday candles you can by, out for a second then poof, re-ignited. This has been shown to happen many a time and as soon as johnny got out of the water stream he'd hit the nova flame and the fight would be over!
Seconds is all Gravity needs. Powers out and BAM! right in the kisser. Again with the nova flame. You know that attack is lethal and he's used it only in desperate times, right?
Seriously, that's like comparing doctor strange to Gob Bluth. Torch is the ULTIMATE fire meta whereas bushfire is a joke. All this shows is quite how far down the food chain gravity is. Johnny has taken on the likes of galactus,silver surfer, onslaught, doom, superskrull,etc... this doesn't even compare.
You're forgetting that he took all of those people on together with the Fantastic Four, and in most of the cases still got his ass beat the first time around. The Torch has never faced a big league supervillain on his own and won.
Since most of this will come from the bugle/tv it will be limited and based on second hand accounts from witnesses. The four have never sat down and fully laid their power levels out in an interview before so this info will be sketchy at best. If it was thing or reed maybe, but sue and johnny's powers are too complex for the public to have a FULL understanding of them
Johnny's powers are complex? Are you kidding me? The guy becomes flame and throws fireballs around. That's it.
Seriously...you're going to claim confidence will be an advantage over 40 years of experience. Johnny has learnt in this time, when to have fun and when to knuckle down. He may be reckless, but he's not stupid. He will do whatever's necessary to take gravity out of action.
10 years of experience, pal. Secondly, Johnny has always shown recklessness, even now, and it is always his downfall. It will be again.
Ok so maybe the nova flame was a bit of an exageration but Johnny, you have to remember, is one of the most competitive people in the marvel universe.He will do what's necessary to win. The point of the nova flame is to illustrate how hot johnny can get, this would mean that even halfway there he could get through gravity's shields and take him out. He won't kill gravity but that won't stop him burning him badly enough to take him out of this fight.
Are you under the impression you have some psycho version of the Torch? Burn him badly enough to take him out? This is a 17-year old kid he's facing. He's not going to go that kind of extra mile. Doom? No problem, but this a novice superhero he's facing. "Do what's necessary"? Hell no. Heck, he's not going to take this fight seriously at all, and just when the competition-drive kicks in, gets his ass kicked.
The Torch's biggest weakness isn't water.
It's
his ego.
WINNER=GRAVITY
But it's still going to have artistic license. Hell with Johnny's ego he'll probably make sure he's written 10x more powerful than he actually is! 
