Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Harlekin]

The purpose of that comment was to highlight the level of the enemies he has faced, not his own powers. If that was unclear I apologise.

Tha's cool.

The point is that gravity has only faced off against the likes of the rhino et al whereas johnny has been involved in the majority of MAJOR conflicts that have occured throughout the history of the marvel U. He's used to facing UBER opponents, gravity is not.

And something that I'll get back to later: The Torch has never done so alone.

I still don't see how not having full control over your powers is an advantage. He may pull off big power moves accidentally buttheir focus will be off and will rarely achieve what he intends them to.

It's both an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It leads to more surprising feats of power, and a tendency to lose control, both of which can serve as an advantage. It'd be a win by a fluke, but it would still be a win.

Many cars can do 150mph despite this breaking pretty much every speed limit in the world. The point is not the top speed itself but the better level of acceleration allowing Johnny to zip round astle doom much faster than gravity.

I'll concede that the Torch can more easily manouver through the castle than Gravity can.

But it must be noted that if I remember that scene correctly it was far more powerful when Black Death used it suggesting that he doesn't have the confidence to use his full power.

Of course it was more powerful. Gravity didn't want to kill Black Death, just knock him out. That's up to intrepetation of the scene though. I think that if he pushed himself, Gravity can definitely attain that level of destruction.

This also suggests that to pull off the big stuff he needs to be shown he can do it by someone else first.

Considering everything but that application of his powers he thought of himself, I'd say no. I still consider picking up the Rhino and throwing him away a pretty big thing for a 17-year old guy who's inexperienced in his powers.

This is far more likely to hurt gravity than johnny since johnny can simply fly up through the falling debris vapourizing anything that is about to hit him. The same cannot be said about gravity. His forcefields are good, but not (at this stage) enough to hold off large sections of castle doom.

Johnny wouldn't be able to burn through everything, and Gravity would make sure not to destroy the walls around him, but those around Johnny, of course. He's no idiot, and would try and pull this off from a little distance.

Doubtfull, Johnny's arogant yes, but not stupid. Besides, as this is a competition Johnny will bring his A-Game since he will be looking to win to help reinforce his ego. He'll be looking to win this match. even if it means bringing castle doom down on gravity's head. He doesn't know gravity which will at least bring some level of caution into his strategy.

I never said Johnny was stupid. I said he was reckless. Reckless mixed with arrogance means he's not going to take this seriously at all. Sure, he'll be looking to win, but as has been shown so many times before, his ego gets in the way, and he likes to toy with his opponent before.

Battles that occured on earth yes but that only equates to about a quarter of their fights. With regards the comic book thing...whoops forgot about that one But it's still going to have artistic license. Hell with Johnny's ego he'll probably make sure he's written 10x more powerful than he actually is!

Something Reed wouldn't allow. Besides that, that would actually be an advantage to Gravity. Overestimating the Torch's capabilities means he'll try and get this over as quick as possible.

True, but he's an impoverished student. The sites yes but the comics and publicity packs...no. Can't afford them.

There's this fun little thing called downloading.

As confirmed by phaed he knows this place like the back of his hand. He's also fought there MANY times meaning he'll be ready for many of the traps etc, which gravity won't. If anyone's gonna get hit by doom's defences it's gravity.

I still contest the "by the back of his hand" thing, since they've never fought in the entirety of the castle, and most of his time was spent in the castle would be spent in a jail cell.

Not at full power but close, also since he has no idea who gravity is, he won't know he's a hero and as a result will simply see him as an opponent. As this is a contest and gravity can protect himself pretty well with his forcefields his pride will take over and he'll do whathe has to to win

To borrow a page from your book: Johnny isn't stupid. He'll look up what he can find about this Gravity kid and find out he's a newbie superhero who is apparently a mutant (he's not). He's not going to think this guy is a villain or anything.

That's incredibly vague, what EXACTLY would he do about columns of flame/fireball's heading in his direction?

Use pieces of the castle to take the blow for him, or smash his way through a wall as to avoid them.

Yes but he will always leave some kind of gap. He will usually get to a few metres away and then do his fireballs/horizontal collums of flames (not sure on the word for this collumn/beam/not sure...)

I know the attack you're talking about. And I've often seen Johnny trying to actually go in and land a hit. That's the kind of person he is.

Also if he is heading to a wall, unless it's adamantium (doubtfull) he can simply vapourize it, causing yet more debris to fall on gravity weakening him further.

Gravity can ward them off much more easily. Heck, if he panics, he's probably even more likely to be capable of doing so.

Doom is far more likely to use magic/weapons/doombots rather than a faucet...

Such as weapons that use water...

I just want to clear this up once and for all. JOHNNY IS ARROGANT NOT STUPID. He'll be out for the win and the glory that entails meaning a headstart is very doubtfull.

Again, I never imply arrogance leads to stupidity, but Johnny has been shown to be extremely reckless and give his opponent a "headstart" so to speak. Defeating his opponent then would be even more food for his ego.

Also, if it's so easy to take him out with water why wasn't hydorman able to take him out when he faced off against the torch and spidey

If you're referring to the issues after the Authorative Action arc, you'll note that Hydroman did douse Johnny's flame and could've knocked his ass out, but he was trying to flee.

Yes he was part of a team but he has faced threats at least 10x the level of the villains gravity has faced. That's like saying iron-man can't be considered capable of handling Kang because he usually faces him with the avengers

But y'know, Iron Man wouldn't be capable of facing a guy like Kang or Ultron or Korvac on his own. If it takes an entire team to beat someone, it's only logical that one member of that team couldn't take that villain out on his own. There are few moments where Johnny has been able to take out a villain on his own. You'll also note that in most fights the Fantastic Four have, Johnny's the first one to go down.

True but that is how most people will view him, they won't know how hot he can get or how flexible his flame manipulation is.

He won't be getting any hotter than his average temperature, and I don't see how his manipulation of flame would be effective here.

Again I say, recklessness does not equal ******. He will see the threat gravity poses and Johnny's experience will make this clear very early on in the match.

Again I say, I never said that. Johnny has shown however that he'll often ignore his experience in favor of boosting his ego.

That's the thing, this is not a fight in the traditional sense, this is an opportunity to prove who the best superhero in the marvel universe is. That's like crack to Johnny, his ego is large and sometimes gets in te way, but nothing gets in the way of Johnny doing things to further bolster his ego. He WILL take the fight seriously and do whatever he has to to win.

Chances are big he'd be indignant about facing some newbie superhero and try to humor Gravity. Which is his big mistake. Yes, this is a contest he wants to win, but he's always shown a particular weakness of giving his opponent an edge so that he can still try and beat them, something that feeds his ego even more. This is basic Human Torch history.

Also you yourself have said that Gravity wouldn't pose much of a threat. I see no reason why Johnny wouldn't think the same way, which is his downfall.

Once again I will point out, Johnny will know nothing of gravity save for his name. He will not know how old he is, he will not know he's a superhero. Granted he'll not be looking to kill him, just take him out of the match as quickly as possible

And now Johnny is being portrayed as an idiot. He would most assuredly look up info on Gravity and come up with a few obscure articles about a kid that defeated the Rhino called Gravity and is supposedly a mutant.

(if you feel this is getting a bit heated let me know, I'm not trying to be offensive and wouldn't want it to be taken that way )

Don't worry, and I wouldn't want that either. I fear we may be going around in circles a bit though.

WINNER=GRAVITY

 

[Phaedrus45]

Ares vs. Ranark The Ravager:

First, onto the bios:

Ares:

Ares possesses all of the conventional superhuman physical attributes common to the Olympians....Ares is considerably stronger than the vast majority of his race. Among the Olympians, his strength is equaled only by his uncles, Poseidon and Hades, and is exceeded only by his father, Zeus, and his half-brother, Hercules. Ares' body generates almost no fatigue toxins during physical activity, granting him almost limitless superhuman stamina. He is also immortal; he doesn't age, is immune to all terrestrial diseases and poisons and while he can be wounded, most wounds he will receive will heal quickly. Olympian godhood also gives him other, more rarely used abilities; he can walk among humans unseen and possess any mortal, like he once possessed Erik Masterson.
He is, as fits his station as the Olympian God of War, an impressive fighter of tremendous skill and an expert in many (if not all) weapons. In his earlier appearances, he preferred ancient weapons like axes and spears, but his most recent appearance shows him favoring a mixture of ancient and modern weapons, like guns.

Ranark The Ravager:

Ranark has a variety of abilities which are mystical in nature.
Ranark, in his usual form, is very large (approximately 20 feet in height) and exceedingly strong (he has been seen to easily lift a bus). He is extremely resistant to physical damage, and can withstand blows from the Thing and Sasquatch. He can fly, if relatively slowly, and can "tunnel" through the earth as easily as flying.... Ranark also possesses a wide variety of shamanic powers. He has not been seen to use more than one of these other abilities simultaneously- unlike the above abilities, these apparently require some concentration or attention on Ranark's part.
Ranark can control the actions of individuals against their will. He can read a person's mind, seeing their memories through their own eyes. He can inflict tremendous mental pain on an individual. However, Ranark has not been seen to use these mental abilities on more than one individual at a time.
Ranark can change his own size, can create a personal force field to protect himself, and claims he can "assume any size, shape, or substance" that he desires. He has been seen to change into a living whirlwind.
Ranark claims he can "bend the earth, the wind, and the fire to my very will!" He can controls plants and plant growth to create enormous vines. He can cause earthquakes by touching the ground. He can create giant earthen hands, capable of grabbing and holding people. He can conjure storms and control the weather. He can absorb (and return) electro-magnetic bolts. Ranark can also fire blasts of physical energy from his hands.


Ranark won't be able to increase his size or tunnel under the earth in Castle Doom. That alone is already a big detriment.

I want to point out that while he's a very good shaman, Ranark can only do one power at a time, and it does take concentration, and while fighting Ares, concentration is something that many people simply don't have. After all, Ares have taken out entire armies by himself.

While Ranark is resistant to physical damage, Ares is much more powerful than Thing or Sasquatch. As mentioned, the only Olympians more powerful than Ares is Zeus and Hercules. (But, even they had to rely on Ares, because of his "crude" and "dishonorable" nature.)

With both character's abilities to take over the minds of others, I would guess that these powers would negate each other's ability to do so.

Many of Ranark's Shaman abilities are the same types of abilities that Ares has fought before, and he'd know how to handle them. Plus, being in Castle Doom really limits Ranark.

Basically, the type of heroes Ranark has faced before don't have the "crude and dishonorable nature" of Ares. Ares won't hold back. He's ruthless, and simply put, he's faced much worse odds. He could easily hunt Ranark; and, with a variety of weapons he could choose to bring with him, he'd slaughter Ranark. Again, Ranark needs concentration to perform many of his abilities, and many of these abilities won't be very effective in a limited environment, like Castle Doom. Ranark might get a few good hits on Ares; but, Ares is very resilient to injury, and he'd just get right back up and finish off his opponent.

Winner = Ares

 

[hippy fascist]

Tha's cool.


And something that I'll get back to later: The Torch has never done so alone.

Whereas Gravity has never done so, period

It's both an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It leads to more surprising feats of power, and a tendency to lose control, both of which can serve as an advantage. It'd be a win by a fluke, but it would still be a win.

If anything this favours me. It simply means gravity would have to fluke it win this. How likely this is will come down to the voters

I'll concede that the Torch can more easily manouver through the castle than Gravity can.

Given the number of traps littered around the place this is going to be a major advantage for the torch.

Of course it was more powerful. Gravity didn't want to kill Black Death, just knock him out. That's up to intrepetation of the scene though. I think that if he pushed himself, Gravity can definitely attain that level of destruction.

But your assertation that torch wouldn't want to hurt gravity equally works the other way. Christ torch is probably one of gravity's role-models meaning he's going to have a major hard time with doing ANYTHING to hurt him.

Considering everything but that application of his powers he thought of himself, I'd say no. I still consider picking up the Rhino and throwing him away a pretty big thing for a 17-year old guy who's inexperienced in his powers.

Yes it's a good application of his powers but it has absolutely no bearing on this fight. That was a brawl, this will not be.

Johnny wouldn't be able to burn through everything, and Gravity would make sure not to destroy the walls around him, but those around Johnny, of course. He's no idiot, and would try and pull this off from a little distance.

This is where the experience factor comes in. Johnny will know what he can and can't destroy meaning he'll dodge anything he can't simply vapourise, this will also be helped by his speed.

Secondly the issue of gravity using targeted blasts, doubtfull. Once again the heat of combat and his lack of experience wil make it very difficult for him to be this accurate. When it comes to falling debris johnny will easily be able to get out of the way, whereas for gravity it will be much tougher.

I never said Johnny was stupid. I said he was reckless. Reckless mixed with arrogance means he's not going to take this seriously at all. Sure, he'll be looking to win, but as has been shown so many times before, his ego gets in the way, and he likes to toy with his opponent before.

Refering to your point about johnny having moral qualms about this fight. He will not be toying with a hero.. If gravity was a villain yes but against another he will view it assimply having a job to do and look to get it done ASAP

Also while recklessness isn't also a good thing, it can sometimes be the only way to get something. The guy that takes all the risks may be the person who screws up every now and then but they are also the people that pull off the victorys that a more cautious person wouldn't be capable of.

Something Reed wouldn't allow. Besides that, that would actually be an advantage to Gravity. Overestimating the Torch's capabilities means he'll try and get this over as quick as possible.

Fair point, scratch that point.

There's this fun little thing called downloading.

true but he only has a 24 hours and probably won't be able to use the university's computers since they tend to ban that kind of thing. As an impoverished student he probably only has a 56k connection to work from at best. (given when the book was written)

I still contest the "by the back of his hand" thing, since they've never fought in the entirety of the castle, and most of his time was spent in the castle would be spent in a jail cell.

Remember authoratative action.He lived there, he's going to have a good idea of the lay out. Hell first thing he did upon moving in was probably to fly round the halls checking things out. Also he has fought there MANY times in MANY different locations. The biggest advantage will be knowledge of the traps/defenses. Gravity will be going in blind by comparison

To borrow a page from your book: Johnny isn't stupid. He'll look up what he can find about this Gravity kid and find out he's a newbie superhero who is apparently a mutant (he's not). He's not going to think this guy is a villain or anything.

debatable, to borrow a page from your book, johnnyis arrogant. It will go something along the lines of "gravity? never heard of him and as a result don't care."

Use pieces of the castle to take the blow for him, or smash his way through a wall as to avoid them.

These are BIG feats to pull off. Accuracy will be minimal for gravity. He'll slip up at some point and something will get through. Also since this requires a HUGE effort at his current level he will be unshielded meaning only one has to slip through. Finally many of johnny's projectiles will simply burn through any piece of the castle he uses.

I know the attack you're talking about. And I've often seen Johnny trying to actually go in and land a hit. That's the kind of person he is.

Debatable

Gravity can ward them off much more easily. Heck, if he panics, he's probably even more likely to be capable of doing so.

Not really, most of the times I've seen gravity use his powers it has required serious concentration and a level head, panic will cause his powers to become unpredictable and therefore unvocussed/uncontrollable. This is a definate negative for gravity.

Such as weapons that use water...

First he has to find them, secondly doom probably booby traps all weaponry in the castle. A simple magical booby trap could be disarmed by doom in a split second, but not by gravity.

Again, I never imply arrogance leads to stupidity, but Johnny has been shown to be extremely reckless and give his opponent a "headstart" so to speak. Defeating his opponent then would be even more food for his ego.

He'd do this with a villain yes, but not a hero.

If you're referring to the issues after the Authorative Action arc, you'll note that Hydroman did douse Johnny's flame and could've knocked his ass out, but he was trying to flee.

And gravity is supposed to recreate this whilst shielding himself, flying etc. It's just to much for him to do.

But y'know, Iron Man wouldn't be capable of facing a guy like Kang or Ultron or Korvac on his own. If it takes an entire team to beat someone, it's only logical that one member of that team couldn't take that villain out on his own. There are few moments where Johnny has been able to take out a villain on his own. You'll also note that in most fights the Fantastic Four have, Johnny's the first one to go down.

Please tell me you're not comparing gravity to Korvac/ultron/kang. The point is even as part of a team Johnny has faced opponents ten times more powerful than gravity and lived to tell the tale. While he has sometimes been defeated by these opponents addmitedly, gravity is not in their league so these experiences will still put Johnny in a far better position.

He won't be getting any hotter than his average temperature, and I don't see how his manipulation of flame would be effective here.

There are many sources of flame aroudn castle doom, this means Johnny can be attacking from multiple angles simultaneously. Gravity may be able to defend what's coming from the front but not when he's getting attacked from behind at the same time.

Again I say, I never said that. Johnny has shown however that he'll often ignore his experience in favor of boosting his ego.

Experience build subconciouss defences like reflexes. He won't be able to ignore it, he will simply react.

Chances are big he'd be indignant about facing some newbie superhero and try to humor Gravity. Which is his big mistake. Yes, this is a contest he wants to win, but he's always shown a particular weakness of giving his opponent an edge so that he can still try and beat them, something that feeds his ego even more. This is basic Human Torch history.

Maybe early on in his career but Johnny has matured over the years to a certain extent.

Also you yourself have said that Gravity wouldn't pose much of a threat. I see no reason why Johnny wouldn't think the same way, which is his downfall.

Never said that. Just said that he wasn't in Johnny's league, anyone can pose a threat. johnny will want to win more than he'll want to showboat, yes he may look cool for five minutes but ultimately the prize is the ULTIMATE ego-boost.

And now Johnny is being portrayed as an idiot. He would most assuredly look up info on Gravity and come up with a few obscure articles about a kid that defeated the Rhino called Gravity and is supposedly a mutant.

I'll leave this up to the voters to decide

Don't worry, and I wouldn't want that either. I fear we may be going around in circles a bit though.

Agreed

WINNER: HUMAN TORCH!

I probably won't have time to reply tomorrow so I wish you luck and thank you for an enjoyable and thought provoking debate

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch

Some quick last thoughts that don't just repeat what I've been saying. I also want to thank you for a good match, Hippy. I doubt I'll be to get anything in after this before voting.

If anything this favours me. It simply means gravity would have to fluke it win this. How likely this is will come down to the voters

No, the fluke thing simply adds onto his chances of winning.

But your assertation that torch wouldn't want to hurt gravity equally works the other way. Christ torch is probably one of gravity's role-models meaning he's going to have a major hard time with doing ANYTHING to hurt him.

It's a good point, but it could also lead into Gravity wanting to have to get this over as fast as possible. Another advantage.

When it comes to falling debris johnny will easily be able to get out of the way, whereas for gravity it will be much tougher.

This I can conceed too.

Refering to your point about johnny having moral qualms about this fight. He will not be toying with a hero.. If gravity was a villain yes but against another he will view it assimply having a job to do and look to get it done ASAP

Except his competitive nature has shown otherwise. When faced with somebody such as Spidey, he shows his arrogance in giving the webhead a head start.

true but he only has a 24 hours and probably won't be able to use the university's computers since they tend to ban that kind of thing. As an impoverished student he probably only has a 56k connection to work from at best. (given when the book was written)

Meh, you'd be surprised at the resources we can pull from our asses these days (although I'm less impoverished than Gravity).

Hell first thing he did upon moving in was probably to fly round the halls checking things out.

Something I severely doubt. He was more busy with questioning Reed and following him everywhere than to go about and explore the place, which I wouldn't see him doing anyway.

Gravity will be going in blind by comparison

True, but there's also the idea that Doom would have changed his castle's layout by now.

debatable, to borrow a page from your book, johnnyis arrogant. It will go something along the lines of "gravity? never heard of him and as a result don't care."

Which would just make Johnny stupid, and I know you don't want to portray him as such. He's matured enough to take the time to look up info. He's got 24 hours for christ' sake.

These are BIG feats to pull off. Accuracy will be minimal for gravity. He'll slip up at some point and something will get through. Also since this requires a HUGE effort at his current level he will be unshielded meaning only one has to slip through. Finally many of johnny's projectiles will simply burn through any piece of the castle he uses.

Which is exactly why he'll try and knock out Johnny out as fast as possible, and he will.

Please tell me you're not comparing gravity to Korvac/ultron/kang.

I'm not.

The point is even as part of a team Johnny has faced opponents ten times more powerful than gravity and lived to tell the tale. While he has sometimes been defeated by these opponents addmitedly, gravity is not in their league so these experiences will still put Johnny in a far better position.

Sometimes? Who is usually the first one of the FF to get his ass kicked? Johnny. It gives him more experience against more powerful opponents, but he only ever did that with a team anyway.

Maybe early on in his career but Johnny has matured over the years to a certain extent.

Which is what you're contradicting yourself on.

Never said that. Just said that he wasn't in Johnny's league, anyone can pose a threat. johnny will want to win more than he'll want to showboat, yes he may look cool for five minutes but ultimately the prize is the ULTIMATE ego-boost.

I say he'll want to showboat first. Heck, there's quite a bit of proof of that.

WINNER=GRAVITY

 

[hippy fascist]

Some quick last thoughts that don't just repeat what I've been saying. I also want to thank you for a good match, Hippy. I doubt I'll be to get anything in after this before voting.

I'm bored and I've got five minutes so might as well get the last word!

No, the fluke thing simply adds onto his chances of winning.

Not really since the probability of said fluke occuring is minimal, if he needs the fluke to win that means he has a low probability of winning in the first place, further reinforcing my point that his lack of experience will be his undoing.

It's a good point, but it could also lead into Gravity wanting to have to get this over as fast as possible. Another advantage.

Not really, mixed feelings about the match from the get go will cause gravity problems. Gravity is young and new to te heroing game, this can only be a negative for gravity as while punishing evil is easy, attacking someone you admire is always hard.

This I can conceed too.

Thank you (HUGSIES!)

Except his competitive nature has shown otherwise. When faced with somebody such as Spidey, he shows his arrogance in giving the webhead a head start.

Yes but being beaten by spidey would not be something Johnny would be excessively ashamed of, he's a tough opponent and at that point a seasoned veteran. If johnny lost it would be acceptable. To lose to an unknown would be completely unacceptable for Johnny. His fear of the shame of such a loss will far outweigh the ego boost of giving him a head start. The more I think about it, the more I think Johnny will do everything in his power to win this.

Meh, you'd be surprised at the resources we can pull from our asses these days (although I'm less impoverished than Gravity).

Exactly, these days. The gravity mini was a couple of years ago and technology has moved along quite radiply during that time. Torrent sites( I assume that's what you're reffering to) were barely at the beta stages during this period meaning limited torrents to download, if he is even aware of the service and has the hardware to download it at all. Johnny has all the resources of the fantastic four. Another major plus point for Johnny

Something I severely doubt. He was more busy with questioning Reed and following him everywhere than to go about and explore the place, which I wouldn't see him doing anyway.

There are many scenes in that arc where reed was alone or Johnny simply wasn't in "shot" (if you can call it that) he had to be doing something during that time. While he's no genius he is naturally curious and also it wouldn't surprise me if johnny (being the kind of guy that he is) went round defacing various bits and pieces of doom's property. If you suddenly found yourself in control of the lair of your arch nemesis, wouln't you take a look around. If nothing else it is just for te purpose of boosting his ego through the "ha ha, now all your stuff is mine so lets see what you've got" principle.

True, but there's also the idea that Doom would have changed his castle's layout by now.

To a certain extent but that would be limited since changing the fundamental structure of the building would be tricky and would have been mentioned at some point due to the sheer scale of the construction project required. Also the main bonus for Johnny is being familiar with, if not the exact nature of them, the kind of traps to expectand how theytend to be triggered. Gravity will have no such information. This presents a MASSIVE advantage to Johnny. Traps designed to take care of sue rule out gravity's forcefields, traps designed to cage the thing rule out his strength, traps designed to take out johnny will impede gravity's flight. Johnny can be affected by one set out of four whereas gravity will suffer thanks to 3 kinds. Johnny will be aware of and able to evade those destined for him. Gravity on the other hand won't know what hit him.

Which would just make Johnny stupid, and I know you don't want to portray him as such. He's matured enough to take the time to look up info. He's got 24 hours for christ' sake.

I'll concede this point and use it instead to bolster my point that Johnny has matured through 40 years of fantastic four issues to the point where he is still reckless but knowhere near as much as he used to be.

Which is exactly why he'll try and knock out Johnny out as fast as possible, and he will.

Again, I think Johhny's just to fast and maneuverable for gravity to get this kind of opportunity, if you can provide any scans of gravity using his super strength in mid flight I'd love to see them as Johnny will not be setting one foot on the ground. That is not what the previously mentioned forty years worth of issues would suggest

I'm not.

Fair enough

Sometimes? Who is usually the first one of the FF to get his ass kicked? Johnny. It gives him more experience against more powerful opponents, but he only ever did that with a team anyway.

This is where sheer weight of encounters comes in, if gravity had been around for as long as Johnny he'd have lost a fair few times too. With only five issues to go off of course he's barely lost any fights, origin stories are usually used to build a characters profile up before realeasing them into the marvel U. If you count the number of screw ups vs rousing victories I'm pretty sure Johnny's victory column far outweighs his defeats.

Which is what you're contradicting yourself on.

Fair enough, I'll admit he's become more experinenced and mature over the years and drop that point

I say he'll want to showboat first. Heck, there's quite a bit of proof of that.

See my earlier point in this post about the bitte taste of defeat at the hands of an unknown

Johnny has

• More experience
• More control over his powers
• MUCH more knowledge of the location
• MUCH more knowledge of the traps/defences.

Much more of everything really

I love the character and gravity won't be an easy opponent but I think Johnny has the skills to win this, heck I don't think he'd be able to live with himself if he didn't

WINNER: HUMAN TORCH!

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch

I'm bored and I've got five minutes so might as well get the last word!

In before voting starts!

Not really since the probability of said fluke occuring is minimal, if he needs the fluke to win that means he has a low probability of winning in the first place, further reinforcing my point that his lack of experience will be his undoing.

Let's break this down:
-The chance of a fluke: A good one, because he's inexperienced.
-The chance of winning: A good one, since he's got some awesome power.
-Combination of the two: Winnage.

Not really, mixed feelings about the match from the get go will cause gravity problems. Gravity is young and new to te heroing game, this can only be a negative for gravity as while punishing evil is easy, attacking someone you admire is always hard.

Although I'd concede Gravity having mixed feelings about this match, I think he has enough of a focus to try and get this match over as soon as possible.

Yes but being beaten by spidey would not be something Johnny would be excessively ashamed of, he's a tough opponent and at that point a seasoned veteran.

Johnny wouldn't be able to live it down if he lost to Spidey.

If johnny lost it would be acceptable. To lose to an unknown would be completely unacceptable for Johnny. His fear of the shame of such a loss will far outweigh the ego boost of giving him a head start. The more I think about it, the more I think Johnny will do everything in his power to win this.

This is really about what people think of Johnny's character. I myself believe that he'd sooner give a headstart than not. That's totally up to the voters though.

Exactly, these days. The gravity mini was a couple of years ago and technology has moved along quite radiply during that time. Torrent sites( I assume that's what you're reffering to) were barely at the beta stages during this period meaning limited torrents to download, if he is even aware of the service and has the hardware to download it at all. Johnny has all the resources of the fantastic four. Another major plus point for Johnny

Gravity came out in 2005. Torrents were not in the beta stage at that point. Johnny has the resources, but if I believe you, he wouldn't use them anyway. I say, he would, but he wouldn't get more than a single article over Gravity's first exploit as a hero.

There are many scenes in that arc where reed was alone or Johnny simply wasn't in "shot" (if you can call it that) he had to be doing something during that time. [...] If nothing else it is just for te purpose of boosting his ego through the "ha ha, now all your stuff is mine so lets see what you've got" principle.

But I doubt he had any strategic tactic in mind and would keep it all stored in his memory. It isn't like Johnny has photographic memory anyway.

To a certain extent but that would be limited since changing the fundamental structure of the building would be tricky and would have been mentioned at some point due to the sheer scale of the construction project required.

We've seen Doom only sparingly since he came back. And he could quite easily do so with his science and magic powers.

Johnny can be affected by one set out of four whereas gravity will suffer thanks to 3 kinds. Johnny will be aware of and able to evade those destined for him. Gravity on the other hand won't know what hit him.

Then again, if we include traps, we also include Doombots. Yes, by rules they do not attack, but I would assume that once provoked they would, and they'd sure as hell focus on Johnny. I didn't want to mention this before, but it's something that gives Gravity a definitive advantage. Johnny only needs to hit one Doombot by accident, and they're going to focus on taking him down. That makes Gravity's chances of winning around 100%.

Again, I think Johhny's just to fast and maneuverable for gravity to get this kind of opportunity, if you can provide any scans of gravity using his super strength in mid flight I'd love to see them as Johnny will not be setting one foot on the ground. That is not what the previously mentioned forty years worth of issues would suggest

He doesn't need to be on the ground to engage in combat. Johnny has always had the tendency to get in close, yes, while flying, but getting in close anyway. I sadly have no scans to provide because I can't scan my Gravity trade without messing it up, and the contest isn't worth that. He seems to be off the ground though when knocking out Black Death.

If you count the number of screw ups vs rousing victories I'm pretty sure Johnny's victory column far outweighs his defeats.

Inevitably, since the Fantastic Four and most heroes suffer from Rocky syndrome. Individual battles by the Torch though, I'm not so sure.

Great match again.

WINNER=GRAVITY

 

[hippy fascist]

Then again, if we include traps, we also include Doombots. Yes, by rules they do not attack, but I would assume that once provoked they would, and they'd sure as hell focus on Johnny. I didn't want to mention this before, but it's something that gives Gravity a definitive advantage. Johnny only needs to hit one Doombot by accident, and they're going to focus on taking him down. That makes Gravity's chances of winning around 100%.

The only point I feel I need to rebutt.

Since johnny's in the air the chance of him hitting one is minimal, also they'd be powered down at this point and would need to be activated. Neither has the skills or desire to do this so they're really a non factor.

Finally johnny has way too much control over his abilities to allow that to happen, if anyone's likely to his them it's gravity and I'd imagine they'd be programmed to attack whoever attacked them.

WINNER: JOHNNY STORM!

 

[hippy fascist]

summation (forgot to add this to my last post)

Johnny has better control over his powers
He knows the location and the pitfalls associated with it
At this stage at least, he's more powerful
He's faster and more agile
And has a lifetime's worth of combat experience compared to gravity's couple of weeks


WINNER: JOHNNY STORM!

 

[Harlekin]

I'm not going to repeat myself.

WINNER=GRAVITY

Well, beyond this one anyway.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

(Remember, you must read through all of this weeks debates before voting. The debates should be the largest percentage of reason for the way you vote; but, they do not have to be the sole reason for your decision.)

 

[hippy fascist]

Joseph( Overpowered, this is magneto x 10)
Harvest( The guy can bascially jack into computers with his mind meaning he'd be able to spot the failsafes)
Aries(you debate you win)
Human Torch( Close but I think he had the better debate )

 

[kytrigger]

Ares
Joseph
Kid Omega (I don't think Harvest is good enough to hack into all of Doom's computers without some sort of bad effects)
Human Torch (really close, and I actually think that the location hurts Johnny more than helps him, but Gravity's inexperience lets Johnny take this one.)

 

[wiegeabo]

Ares (should be a good match though)
Joseph (if hecan keep his distance)
Kid Omega
Gravity

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Ares

*Kid Omega

*Human Torch - (Great debate! I almost went with Gravity. Anyway, I just want to say: a) I never said Johnny would know Castle Doom like the "back of his hand." I just said he'd be very familiar with it. Just want to clarify. b) I think Gravity would be star-struck. c) In the event I can go either way, I usually give it to experience....but, I almost voted for Gravity. Too bad he couldn't fight a less experienced fighter.)

*Fu Manchu - (I do remember reading the old Shang-Chi comics, and prep-time totally works to Fu's advantage. This is really one tough cookie to beat. Plus, he could use quite a few items in Castle Doom, as his old abodes are very similiar.)

 

[hippy fascist]

Results so far:

Human torch is beating Gravity 3-1
Joseph is beating Fu Manchu 3-1
Kid Omega is beating Harvest 3-1
Ares is beating Ranark the ravager 4-0

 

[DarkHellRider]

Joseph
Harvest
Aries
Human Torch

 

[Harlekin]

Ares
Kid Omega - I also doubt Harvest would be able to so easily hack into Doom's computers.
Gravity
Fu Manchu - I think the hypnotise thing just works too much in his favor.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Ares - eventhough both Neptune and Pluto are more powerful then him
Harvest - his array of powers would be too much I think
Torch - great debate and I think he would be willing to use the nova flame which he did against the Hulk
Fu Manchu - well I just think as Jospeh woul not go for mass destruction he would be vulnerable to a guy that just needs to look him in the eye to win

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Gravity
Joseph
Omega
Ares

 

[Darren Daring]

Human
Joseph
Kid Omega
Ares

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results so far:

Human torch is currently beating Gravity 6-3
Joseph is currently beating Fu Manchu 6-3
Kid Omega is currently beating Harvest 6-3
Ares is currently beating Ranark The Ravager 9-0

 

[Hellstormer]

Gravity
Joseph
Kid Omega
Ares

 

[Iceman]

Human Torch - I don't actually think this would be as close as most seem to think. Torch is arrogant but he's so much more experienced and his powers are on a different level. Add to that his knowledge of the location and I can't see how he could lose.
Fu Manchu - despite Joseph's huge power levels, he wouldn't know of Fu Manchu's hypnotic powers and this could be his downfall.
Harvest - it comes down to whether Harvest can influence Doom's computers and I think he has a chance.
Ares - titanic battle but Ares is the God of War for a very good reason.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Human torch
Joseph
Harvest
Ares

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Human torch beat Gravity 8-4
Joseph beat Fu Manchu 8-4
Kid Omega beat Harvest 7-5
Ares beat Ranark The Ravager 12-0