Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Now Cortez has access to information on most super-human prisons from his continual efforts in diplomatically securing the releases of mutants and aiding, funding and planning large scale prison breaks of “innocent” mutants. From this background he will have a level of knowledge on how they function, how they can be beaten and the methods used to contain the most powerful inmates. In addition he will use his prep time to study and research the particular prison that provides the location for this fight (one which he may well have visited and possibly even broken out other mutants from in the past). There is a strong chance that he would already have access to plans of the prison (in some form) through either his “friendly” diplomatic connections developed while negotiating the release of mutant prisoners or his networks and spies that will have assessed all potential weaknesses from the inside (this could come from, for example, mutant criminals who have served time at the prison or possibly even mutant warders). This information should already be on file somewhere waiting to be used.

I agreee that Cortez could very well have plans on the prision. However, there is a huge difference between a plan to break someone out of prison, and a plan to effectively use the prison to trap someone.

His plan will focus on trapping Scorpion using whatever containment facilities are available. If the place can hold the likes of Quasar and Thing it won’t have any problems holding Scorpion.

Like I just mentioned, operating the prison system and breaking someone out are completely different. You can dsiable security with a well placed explosive, but to activate the cells, you actually need to know working knowledge of the computer system as well as access codes or a key of some sort. While Cortez might have blueprints of the prison, I doubt he has the keys.

Also, Thing and Quasar weren't held captive there, they worked there. And while one of their cells could probably hold old Scorpion, the new one has the venom symbiote. This makes him MUCH harder to contain, and unless the prison has a cell that constantly shooting sonic beams at him, he will be able to escape, but this technically wouldn't mattter that much since I don't believe Cortez has the necessary tools to actually activate the cells.

The only question that voters need to consider is whether Fabian Cortez (the guy who outsmarted and deceived a whole legion of mutants during his reign including Magneto himself, and led the Acolytes) has the smarts and ability to trick or trap the Scorpion. To assist this decision, remember that while Cortez is a master military strategist, Gargan turned completely psychotic as a result of his transformation. His thought are now consumed with his vendettas against J J Jameson and Spider-man who outwits (rather than outpowers) him easily at every meeting.

I won't deny that Cortez is smarter and wittier than Scorpion, but just because he is a raging psychotic with a huge bloodlust for Spidey and Jameson doesn't mean he is a complete idiot. He knows he is in a prison, the chances of him just walking into a cell are pretty slim. And liek I have stated already, I doubt Cortez could even close the cells.

So what we're working with here is:
A) Is Scorpion actually stupid nough to just walk into an open cell for no apparent reason?
B) IF he does, does Cortez have the access codes/keys to actually operate the high-tech super prison and trap him.
C) Can this prison hold the Venom symbiote which Scorpion has (the only thing that has been known to completely immobilize it is sound waves, somethign I doubt every cell (if any) have at the prison.

Cosidering the fact that this is pretty much the only way Cortez could immobilze Scorpion, it looks like Cortez needs a lot of luck for things to go his way

In addition to the gulf in intelligence and strategic awareness, Cortez is well used to operating amongst and with authority over hugely super powered beings that are initially hostile (as in Magneto’s case). He is a master at manipulating large numbers of great minds simultaneously, so the simple mind of Mac Gargan should not prove too much trouble.

Whiel Cortez is a great manipulator, you have to remember that he manipulates intelligent people that listen in teh first place. Scorpion never listens. Many people consider him an idiot, but in fact it's his gigantic bloodlust that takes over and he then refuses to listen to any reasoning whatsoever. It's impossible to reason with a man that won't listen in the first place.

If events do not go to plan, Cortez will have thought of and planned for numerous contingencies (a result of his extensive background in military strategy at commander level). He also carries military weapons at all times to ensure a degree of security and can employ these to keep Scorpion at bay while he moves from one plan to the next. There will be countless opportunities for Cortez to trap Scorpion once he has studied the plans of the building and he only needs one to succeed.

The firearms won't really affect Scorpion especially now that he has the symbiote, and while I agree that Cortez will have a couple of backup plans, he won't have time to activate them. Scorpion has a rather large speed advantage, and is used to fighting at extremely high speeds because of Spider-Man. Couple that speed with the fact that Cortez's firearms won't really slow him down even, and Cortez is caught and dead before he can even get to Plan B. Hell, depending on how far apart they start when they fight begins, Cortez might not make it to Plan A even.

Finally, he possesses control over his own power's energy field, and can constrict this around a foe. Whether the offensive element of this ability is sufficient to disable Scorpion by itself or not, it will certainly serve as another means of keeping him from attacking while Cortez efficiently runs through his list of plans to trap the man until one succeeds. Cortez has training in all military techniques including stealth, accuracy with weapons, keeping opponents at distance, and is also a skilled martial artist. He will use these skills only to avoid confrontation until one of his tactics pays off.

I am not sure if his forcefield would be strong enough to hold Scorpion, and I doubt it could hold the extra strength and Manueverability of the Symbiote. I'm not sure though, I'm going to guess that the voter's will decide if it's strong enough.


What all this boils down to is that Cortez might be able to make several plans of how to trap/beat Scorpion, but he doesn't have the means to actually make it happen. It seems to happen to Cortez often, but his aspiratins are greater than his abilities, which leads to his downfall. This match is no exception.


Winner- Scorpion

 

[Phaedrus45]

THe key point to your debate though is the fact that she can "convert all organic material to dust instantly". However she has in past been taken down by quicksilver and captain america on seperate occasions. I would like you to clarify exactly how this power works as I have never seen her use it against a human target and if she can why didn't she simply use it on cap pietro. I've only seen this reffered to on one biog and that was from the marvel database project, no other biog lists it so please clarify this point with a scan or something to that effect. I am not hugely familiar with the character and at this stage I would like the process of this technique explained/illustrated since it's the crux of your argument. If it is simply by looking at her target then it could be very effective but if it requires touch the fact that deathstrike can extend her claws to up to 24" (2 foot!) would leave famine pretty much screwed. I await some kind of proof to back this up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_(comics)

http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Famine_(Autumn_Rolfson))

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/f/famine.htm

Those are three different sites that all say the same thing...that she can turn organic material to dust. AND, I would also point out your opening argument said the same thing, as I quoted you in one of my rebuttals. You totally acknowledged it, and your own words can be used as further proof.

I would also like to add that while deathstrike is certainly distrubed this is usually due to the fact that wolverine tends to be portrayed in the vicinty. Her bloodlust usually stems from her mistaken belief that wolverine betrayed her father. She has no great issue with famine other than to advance to the next round. So your comments about her being a psycho don't really hold up.

Now, I'm not sure where this statement comes from. I cannot think of any instance where I said Lady Deathstrike was "psycho." I did say she was "over-confident" and that she "acts out of anger," both of which are true. She is not stealthy...but, in all the comics I have read, she'll come to her prey head on. She thinks she's going to win a match even before she's won it. (Remember, she still probably thinks she's better than Wolverine, even though he's beaten her.) This attitude is what leads me to victory. But, again, I never said "psycho."

 

[hippy fascist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_(comics)

http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Famine_(Autumn_Rolfson)

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/f/famine.htm

Those are three different sites that all say the same thing...that she can turn organic material to dust. AND, I would also point out your opening argument said the same thing, as I quoted you in one of my rebuttals. You totally acknowledged it, and your own words can be used as further proof.

And after reading them I got the impression it was done through touch. She wouldn't get close enough to deathstrike to touch hence she cannot win. It also states that opponents return to normal after eating food so what to stop deathstrike taking a tube of pringles along with her...

 

[Phaedrus45]

And after reading them I got the impression it was done through touch. She wouldn't get close enough to deathstrike to touch hence she cannot win. It also states that opponents return to normal after eating food so what to stop deathstrike taking a tube of pringles along with her...

First, it says "at will." It says nothing about touch. The touch is in regards to her ability to "cause an emaciated state through physical contact." That seems pretty specific to me. In fact, if you notice other versions of Famine, people effected have it happen without touch; they feel such an intense feeling of hunger, they are unable to do anything but focus on that hunger.

With regards to eating food, that is to counter the effects after it she has effected them, either after she's left or been defeated. You won't see a character munching away on snacks while fighting her. That's not what the reference refers to.

 

[Phaedrus45]

And after reading them I got the impression it was done through touch. She wouldn't get close enough to deathstrike to touch hence she cannot win. It also states that opponents return to normal after eating food so what to stop deathstrike taking a tube of pringles along with her...

Ok, I did the full research on the various statements...and, you're right. There are some inaccuracies in those articles. Simply put, she doesn't need to touch a damn thing for her powers to work.

From her first appearances with actual action involved: In X-Factor 24 and 25, she is constantly shown riding her mechanical flying warbeast, causing anyone she wished to succumb to her powers without touching a single person. She is a good distance away, and you can see her hands eminating her powers at vast distances from her prey. NO TOUCH INVOLVED.

Now, you do mention two characters who defeated her in the past: Quicksilver and Captain America. What you fail to mention is the actual circumstances of those appearances.

From Captain America #339: In this issue, we have Famine vs. FOUR SUPERHEROES, including Captain America, The Falcon AND REDWING, Nomad, and D-Man. AND, Captain America doesn't defeat her. While the other three have her occupied, he jumps her from behind, and Famine then has Apocalpyse teleport her away from the fight. SHE DOES NOT GET DEFEATED BY CAPTAIN AMERICA. And, think about it: 4 Against 1.

From X-Factor #84: In this issue, Quicksilver does knock out Famine. BUT, in this issue, it's 6 against 2. We have Caliban and Famine fighting all of X-Factor; and, after fighting the rest of X-Factor, Quicksilver comes up with superspeed behind Famine while she's battling them and knocks her out. Again, think about it: 6 against 2.

So, in conclusion:

*Both mentions of Famine's defeat have been when she's hopelessly out numbered, whether is was 4 to 1 or 6 to 2.

*Actual proof that Famine does not have to touch her victim has been shown. Anyone can pick up X-Factor (vol. 1), issues 24 and 25 for proof.

So, again I have shown the facts and given proof as to my plans superiority over Lady Deathstrike's over-confidence. I am confident with all the information I've given, with all the proof behind my statements, that there is really only one outcome that the voters can come to:

Clear Winner = Famine

 

[hippy fascist]

Ok, I did the full research on the various statements...and, you're right. There are some inaccuracies in those articles. Simply put, she doesn't need to touch a damn thing for her powers to work.

From her first appearances with actual action involved: In X-Factor 24 and 25, she is constantly shown riding her mechanical flying warbeast, causing anyone she wished to succumb to her powers without touching a single person. She is a good distance away, and you can see her hands eminating her powers at vast distances from her prey. NO TOUCH INVOLVED.

Now, you do mention two characters who defeated her in the past: Quicksilver and Captain America. What you fail to mention is the actual circumstances of those appearances.

From Captain America #339: In this issue, we have Famine vs. FOUR SUPERHEROES, including Captain America, The Falcon AND REDWING, Nomad, and D-Man. AND, Captain America doesn't defeat her. While the other three have her occupied, he jumps her from behind, and Famine then has Apocalpyse teleport her away from the fight. SHE DOES NOT GET DEFEATED BY CAPTAIN AMERICA. And, think about it: 4 Against 1.

From X-Factor #84: In this issue, Quicksilver does knock out Famine. BUT, in this issue, it's 6 against 2. We have Caliban and Famine fighting all of X-Factor; and, after fighting the rest of X-Factor, Quicksilver comes up with superspeed behind Famine while she's battling them and knocks her out. Again, think about it: 6 against 2.

So, in conclusion:

*Both mentions of Famine's defeat have been when she's hopelessly out numbered, whether is was 4 to 1 or 6 to 2.

*Actual proof that Famine does not have to touch her victim has been shown. Anyone can pick up X-Factor (vol. 1), issues 24 and 25 for proof.

So, again I have shown the facts and given proof as to my plans superiority over Lady Deathstrike's over-confidence. I am confident with all the information I've given, with all the proof behind my statements, that there is really only one outcome that the voters can come to:

Clear Winner = Famine

Sorry, still not buying it. There has to be some catch involved. If someone has the power to turn multiple opponents to dust in an instant you can't distract them, all of your distractions are dead before you can even get into position. If she really was this powerful she would NEVER have been defeated. It either requires extreme concentration or takes a little while to get the mojo working. Either of these would give a major opportunity for deathstrike to come in and finish the job. Either she can set off various LOUD noisemakers to throw off famine's concentration or she simply runs at her (she does have superspeed/agility. Not as fast as quicksilver but I'd bet she does the hundred metres in sub 6 seconds.) Famine is a tough opponent but all deathstrike needs is one second in the right position and she'd slice through famine in a heartbeat.

Also this has all been shown in terms of organic opponents, i could see this passing like a virus through the air but even a virus has to contact with flesh in order to get a decent foothold.Otherwise it just sits there waiting for another organic contact. All this would do is sit on the outside of her INORGANIC BODY! Assuming famine is going after deathstrikes brain she has to get through an adamantium skull. Any fleshy bits left on the outside deathstrike can deal with. But if that brain keeps ticking famine is going down.

This is just another example of when vague descriptions of powers meet a bit of imagination. Deathstrike an and will win this.

DEATHSTRIKE FTW!

 

[Phaedrus45]

Sorry, still not buying it. There has to be some catch involved. If someone has the power to turn multiple opponents to dust in an instant you can't distract them, all of your distractions are dead before you can even get into position. If she really was this powerful she would NEVER have been defeated. It either requires extreme concentration or takes a little while to get the mojo working. Either of these would give a major opportunity for deathstrike to come in and finish the job. Either she can set off various LOUD noisemakers to throw off famine's concentration or she simply runs at her (she does have superspeed/agility. Not as fast as quicksilver but I'd bet she does the hundred metres in sub 6 seconds.) Famine is a tough opponent but all deathstrike needs is one second in the right position and she'd slice through famine in a heartbeat.

This reminds me of the people who continue to say the Holocaust never happened and that any records that say it did are false. They didn't see it; so, it never happened. Let's look at what's transpired though.

First, you say:

"first of all that against any other opponent famine would be formidable opponent. She has the ability to disintigrate organic material. That means living tissue, food, plant life..."

Those are your own words. But, then, you discover that I've actually come up with a very good plan to defeat your character, and you continually try to take it back.

After this, you say:

"If it is simply by looking at her target then it could be very effective but if it requires touch the fact that deathstrike can extend her claws to up to 24" (2 foot!) would leave famine pretty much screwed. I await some kind of proof to back this up."

I did what you asked. I went to the source and showed that her power has NEVER required touch. I gave you the proof you asked for. Yet, now you say, "Sorry, still not buying it. There has to be some catch involved." There is no catch. Simpy put, she looks at her target, and with a wave of her hand her powers take effect. I even showed you where her defeat is at the hands of numerous opponents.

Now, you say "either requires extreme concentration or takes a little while to get the mojo working." Both are completely wrong. There is no "extreme concentration" and her powers don't "take a little while" to work. You told me I had to provide you proof, and I backed up everything I said. Yet, you're giving false assumptions about my character without doing the research yourself. You are making bold statements with absolutely no information to back it up.

Also this has all been shown in terms of organic opponents, i could see this passing like a virus through the air but even a virus has to contact with flesh in order to get a decent foothold.Otherwise it just sits there waiting for another organic contact. All this would do is sit on the outside of her INORGANIC BODY! Assuming famine is going after deathstrikes brain she has to get through an adamantium skull. Any fleshy bits left on the outside deathstrike can deal with. But if that brain keeps ticking famine is going down.

This is just another example of when vague descriptions of powers meet a bit of imagination.

No...if you look at Famine's previous appearances in comics, like X-Factor 24 & 25, this is not a virus that passes through the air. This is her power. It eminates from her hands and can either be done as encompassing a wide arc around her, or she can simply shoot it from her hands at her opponent.

Also, Famine doesn't go for just Lady D's brain....as my original write up states, she is going for all of her organic parts. (In fact, look at all the pictures of Lady D's chest. It's flesh. Famine can turn so many parts into dust, including Lady D's very important eyes.

Finally, you continue to state that Famine has vague descriptions of her powers. That is also inaccurate. I've given you the proof you've asked for. I've shown three websites AND I've given the comics I read that showed 1) she didn't need to touch anyone for any of her powers to work and 2) the moments of her defeat you mentioned was when she was hopelessly outnumbered either 4 to 1 or 6 to 2.

Winner = Famine

 

[hippy fascist]

This reminds me of the people who continue to say the Holocaust never happened and that any records that say it did are false. They didn't see it; so, it never happened. Let's look at what's transpired though.

First, you say:

"first of all that against any other opponent famine would be formidable opponent. She has the ability to disintigrate organic material. That means living tissue, food, plant life..."

Those are your own words. But, then, you discover that I've actually come up with a very good plan to defeat your character, and you continually try to take it back.

After this, you say:

"If it is simply by looking at her target then it could be very effective but if it requires touch the fact that deathstrike can extend her claws to up to 24" (2 foot!) would leave famine pretty much screwed. I await some kind of proof to back this up."

I did what you asked. I went to the source and showed that her power has NEVER required touch. I gave you the proof you asked for. Yet, now you say, "Sorry, still not buying it. There has to be some catch involved." There is no catch. Simpy put, she looks at her target, and with a wave of her hand her powers take effect. I even showed you where her defeat is at the hands of numerous opponents.

Now, you say "either requires extreme concentration or takes a little while to get the mojo working." Both are completely wrong. There is no "extreme concentration" and her powers don't "take a little while" to work. You told me I had to provide you proof, and I backed up everything I said. Yet, you're giving false assumptions about my character without doing the research yourself. You are making bold statements with absolutely no information to back it up.




No...if you look at Famine's previous appearances in comics, like X-Factor 24 & 25, this is not a virus that passes through the air. This is her power. It eminates from her hands and can either be done as encompassing a wide arc around her, or she can simply shoot it from her hands at her opponent.

Also, Famine doesn't go for just Lady D's brain....as my original write up states, she is going for all of her organic parts. (In fact, look at all the pictures of Lady D's chest. It's flesh. Famine can turn so many parts into dust, including Lady D's very important eyes.

Finally, you continue to state that Famine has vague descriptions of her powers. That is also inaccurate. I've given you the proof you've asked for. I've shown three websites AND I've given the comics I read that showed 1) she didn't need to touch anyone for any of her powers to work and 2) the moments of her defeat you mentioned was when she was hopelessly outnumbered either 4 to 1 or 6 to 2.

Winner = Famine

I don't agree with her power levels as they are just pointlessly high if wht you say is true. It's obvious that we aren't going to agree on this so how about we just suspend any further debate on this match and let the voters decide based on what has been written so far. Good debate but when you reach an impasse like this it's time to put the debates away and hope for the best.

Ceasefire?

WINNER: YOU DECIDE!

 

[Phaedrus45]

Cool with me. It goes to the voters, and tomorrow we can just sit back and let the others continue debating....And, I thought you'd like that we have another battle against each other next week. If I remember right, it's my character, Pestilence, against your character, Domino....but, I might be wrong.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Just for clarification on the Fabian Cortez vs. Scorpion match: This is classic Scorpion. Venom isn't involved, as he's already in this tournament. Please excuse me that I didn't bring it up sooner.

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: FABIAN CORTEZ Vs SCORPION

First off, sorry Iceman/Psylocke for not getting my debate up sooner. I've had a ridiculously hectic week, and it is only going to get worse, but I'll hop in enough to debate my matches.

No probs. I’m in a very similar position myelf

First off, I will acknowledge that Scorpion will probably not get any info on Cortez before this match, and it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter if he is fighting a superhero or a 6-year old, he will always be completely ruthless and go all out to endure victory. He might be able to from Norman Osborn, but I doubt he would even ask. Lucky for him, he doesn't need it seeing as how Cortez's mutant ability won't affect him in any way.

Gargan’s impatience and ignorance of strategy will be his downfall. Cortez is relying on him to rush in without assessing the situation and fall straight into the first trap that he sets.

Now, Cortez might not be able to get much info on him either, which really hurts him. Cortez could easily get info on most mutants in the world, but when it comes to an ordinary villain like Scorpion, I doubt he could get much. The only thing he might be able to get is some news reports on him, which is actually worse than any info at all, and heres why: with the limited amount of info, Cortez will be expecting to see the normal Scorpion, he won't know about his new transformation into Venom, making any planning he had fly right out the window.

As Magneto’s No. 2 and leader of the world’s largest organisation for mutants Cortez would have access to comprehensive data comparable (if inferior) to the likes of Xavier and Nick Fury. Also Cortez didn’t only face threats from mutants during his time leading Magneto’s forces. The battle between mankind and mutants was actually far more of an issue. Non mutant super-humans represented a particular threat. The only reason that Cortez would have no records on Scorpion would be if he was considered not powerful enough to matter (which I doubt you would argue to be the case).

Until a superhero/villain ‘comes out’ as being a mutant, nobody knows for sure whether or not they are a mutant. For this reason, his forces would keep records on all superheroes and villains to monitor any threat they might pose, potential for alliance and to pull them in to the cause if they turn out to be a mutant.

Also as now confirmed, we are dealing with classic Scorpion so any reference to the symbiote is not relevant here.

There's really not much else COrtez can do here. He is known as being great at manipulating an enemy (he did it against Magneto) but that doesn't matter when you have someone as completely psychotic as Scorpion. All of the people Cortez reasoned with were highly intelligent and could see both sides of the playing field. Scorpion isn't intelligent enough to do that. Scorpion only sees his side, the side that will kill Cortez.

Psychotics are often super-intelligent. Scorpion completely lacks intelligence and strategic awareness but not due to his psychosis. Hannibal Lecter doesn’t rush in without thought. If he did he would be far easier to contain. He is an old man, far from superhuman, but would probably stand a better chance of escape. Brains far more than brawn are important to beat the prison.

Edit: Please also see next post for Spider-man / J J Jameson example of how Cortez could manipulate Scorpion.

Cortez is simply overmatched here, Scorpion/Venom is stronger, faster, more durable, and overall much more of a threat than Cortez is to him. Cortez's firearms won't help him against the symbiote.

As above Venom’s symbiote is not relevant.

Strategically, Cortez is the better man, but all good strategy does is allow the person to use their other advantages in a fight to maximum effect, and unfortunately for Cortez, he has no other advantages

A prison guard may not be superior in a fight with a super being but they will have the necessary advantages in terms of weapons and facilities available to deal with a super-human crisis when it arises. There will be more than enough super-weapons and fail safes present in the prison that Cortez will be aware of through his access to the plans to deal with a Scorpion level threat.

WINNER = FABIAN CORTEZ

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: FABIAN CORTEZ Vs SCORPION

I agreee that Cortez could very well have plans on the prision. However, there is a huge difference between a plan to break someone out of prison, and a plan to effectively use the prison to trap someone.

Not when you consider that to break someone out of a prison you need to know comprehensively how the prison works ie all standard security procedures and any measures available to warders in the event of an escape attempt.

Like I just mentioned, operating the prison system and breaking someone out are completely different. You can dsiable security with a well placed explosive, but to activate the cells, you actually need to know working knowledge of the computer system as well as access codes or a key of some sort. While Cortez might have blueprints of the prison, I doubt he has the keys.

Also, Thing and Quasar weren't held captive there, they worked there. And while one of their cells could probably hold old Scorpion, the new one has the venom symbiote. This makes him MUCH harder to contain, and unless the prison has a cell that constantly shooting sonic beams at him, he will be able to escape, but this technically wouldn't mattter that much since I don't believe Cortez has the necessary tools to actually activate the cells.

It wouldn’t really make sense that the plans to the prison outline all security procedures but forget to mention the location of the keys/access codes (if these are even a part of the security measures used) in various situations. Cortez will have read these plans in such depth in his day of prep time that he will know the workings of the prison from back to front, possibly in more detail than the average warder. Obviously we aren’t dealing with the symbiote here, but even if we were, the prison is designed for super powered beings and should be able to hold it.

I won't deny that Cortez is smarter and wittier than Scorpion, but just because he is a raging psychotic with a huge bloodlust for Spidey and Jameson doesn't mean he is a complete idiot. He knows he is in a prison, the chances of him just walking into a cell are pretty slim. And liek I have stated already, I doubt Cortez could even close the cells.

So what we're working with here is:
A) Is Scorpion actually stupid nough to just walk into an open cell for no apparent reason?

B) IF he does, does Cortez have the access codes/keys to actually operate the high-tech super prison and trap him.
C) Can this prison hold the Venom symbiote which Scorpion has (the only thing that has been known to completely immobilize it is sound waves, somethign I doubt every cell (if any) have at the prison.

Cosidering the fact that this is pretty much the only way Cortez could immobilze Scorpion, it looks like Cortez needs a lot of luck for things to go his way

A) The anti escape procedures will be slightly more complex than waiting for someone to walk into a cell and slamming the door shut. Most of the inmates that may have tried to break free in the past will have had much higher intelligence than Scorpion and the measures to contain them would therefore need to be complex enough to stop them.

B) The plans to the prison will contain information on the location of any keys and access codes required.

C) Classic Scorpion is not in Venom’s league.

Whiel Cortez is a great manipulator, you have to remember that he manipulates intelligent people that listen in teh first place. Scorpion never listens. Many people consider him an idiot, but in fact it's his gigantic bloodlust that takes over and he then refuses to listen to any reasoning whatsoever. It's impossible to reason with a man that won't listen in the first place.

Cortez has handled far more brainless, feral mutants than hyper intelligent megalomanicas in his time. He didn’t start his career at the top and has always relied on his wiles.

Potential example: Scorpion has a serious and well documented weakness for anything Spider-man or J J Jameson related. If cornered, Cortez could easily manipulate the guy by convincing him that he can get his hands on either (this wouldn’t even be a lie with the resources at his disposal in the outside world) and Scorpion is willing to concede here if he believes that his true enemies can be defeated. The very mention of their names will cause Scorpion to slow down, listen and be less mindful of the fight at hand.

The firearms won't really affect Scorpion especially now that he has the symbiote, and while I agree that Cortez will have a couple of backup plans, he won't have time to activate them. Scorpion has a rather large speed advantage, and is used to fighting at extremely high speeds because of Spider-Man. Couple that speed with the fact that Cortez's firearms won't really slow him down even, and Cortez is caught and dead before he can even get to Plan B. Hell, depending on how far apart they start when they fight begins, Cortez might not make it to Plan A even.

A prison for the super powered should have the facilities to handle those attempting to escape who have genuine super speed such as Quicksilver. Scorpion is relatively average in the super-human speed stakes and should not pose too much of a problem. In addition, the firearms and other weapons present in the prison will be of a specification that can affect Scorpion as they are designed to tranquilise far more powerful villains.

I am not sure if his forcefield would be strong enough to hold Scorpion, and I doubt it could hold the extra strength and Manueverability of the Symbiote. I'm not sure though, I'm going to guess that the voter's will decide if it's strong enough.

What all this boils down to is that Cortez might be able to make several plans of how to trap/beat Scorpion, but he doesn't have the means to actually make it happen. It seems to happen to Cortez often, but his aspiratins are greater than his abilities, which leads to his downfall. This match is no exception.

Having accepted that Cortez will have the plans to the prison and combining this with his advanced strategic thinking and a day’s prep time, he has everything at his disposal that a prison warder would have to deal with any super powered inmates trying to escape and should therefore be able to disable Scorpion quickly.


WINNER = FABIAN CORTEZ

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Not when you consider that to break someone out of a prison you need to know comprehensively how the prison works ie all standard security procedures and any measures available to warders in the event of an escape attempt.

It wouldn’t really make sense that the plans to the prison outline all security procedures but forget to mention the location of the keys/access codes (if these are even a part of the security measures used) in various situations. Cortez will have read these plans in such depth in his day of prep time that he will know the workings of the prison from back to front, possibly in more detail than the average warder. Obviously we aren’t dealing with the symbiote here, but even if we were, the prison is designed for super powered beings and should be able to hold it.

While I agree that Cortez could have plans to the prison, I still don't think he could work the security system. He doesn't need codes and keys to break someone out of prison. Yes, he will know where the main controls/power grid is, but he won't know the codes, because he didn't need that info. Why shut down the cells defenses by inputting the codes when you can just blow it up, and cause more chaos? Remeber, this is a prison break, not a jewel heist, there is no need for stealth. And being the tactician that he is, Cortez would enjoy blowing out all the power to all the cells since it would create a diversion. Disabling something is much easier than enabling.

A) The anti escape procedures will be slightly more complex than waiting for someone to walk into a cell and slamming the door shut. Most of the inmates that may have tried to break free in the past will have had much higher intelligence than Scorpion and the measures to contain them would therefore need to be complex enough to stop them.

B) The plans to the prison will contain information on the location of any keys and access codes required.

C) Classic Scorpion is not in Venom’s league.

A) Once again I disagree. I don't think we'll change each other's mind on this, it's up to the voters to decide.

B) Same as above

C) Yeah, I read Phaed's message about 5 minutes ago. While it felt like a swift kick in the nuts, the part about Cortez's weapons still stand. A gun doesn't have much affect on Scorpion.

Cortez has handled far more brainless, feral mutants than hyper intelligent megalomanicas in his time. He didn’t start his career at the top and has always relied on his wiles.

Potential example: Scorpion has a serious and well documented weakness for anything Spider-man or J J Jameson related. If cornered, Cortez could easily manipulate the guy by convincing him that he can get his hands on either (this wouldn’t even be a lie with the resources at his disposal in the outside world) and Scorpion is willing to concede here if he believes that his true enemies can be defeated. The very mention of their names will cause Scorpion to slow down, listen and be less mindful of the fight at hand.

You're not giving enough credit to his bloodlust for the 2. If we take your situation, you have to count on two things.

1) That Scorpion even knows who the hell Fabian Cortez is. I doubt he does. So while we know him as an important player with some political pull, Scorpion probably doesn't. So it's just some random dude telling him that he can get him JJJ and Spidey. He won't listen to him.

2) Fabian Cortez has been shooting at the guy for a while now until Scorpion catches up to him (might not be that long since Scorpion is faster). Mentioning the names of JJ and Spidey aren't going to make him calm down, they're going to piss him off even more. You know what you get when you have an already pumped up Scorpion and you piss him off? A dead Cortez. He won't listen to Cortez, which makes it impossible for him to be swayed.

A prison for the super powered should have the facilities to handle those attempting to escape who have genuine super speed such as Quicksilver. Scorpion is relatively average in the super-human speed stakes and should not pose too much of a problem. In addition, the firearms and other weapons present in the prison will be of a specification that can affect Scorpion as they are designed to tranquilise far more powerful villains.

The question just isn't about Scorpion's speed, but about Cortez's as well. Cortez's entire plan rely on getting to the control room of the prison before Scorpion gets to him. IF they are transported to the prison at the beginning of the match and are anywhere near each other, Fabian has already lost. There is no way he can outrun Scorpion long enough to even get there.

As for the weapons in the prison, those won't be just lying around on the tables, those will be in a secure lock-up that (once again) I don't think Cortez will have teh codes to open. (Yet another thing that the voter's will have to decide if he has the ability or not).


Also, since Phaedrus cleraed it up that this is classic Scorpion and not the new one with the venom symbiote, I'd like to point out that while in my previous posts some things aren't as true anymore (mainly his ability to escape) most things still stand. He might not be as powerful or quick as he is as venom, but he is still stronger and faster than Cortez. Also, that means he has his tail-gun back which would come to good use. If Cortez actually tried to get in a firefight with him, Cortez would be screwed, bullets don't hurt Scorpion, and while Cortez is a trained military man, Scorpion is used to fast moving targets like Spider-man, compared to that, Cortez might as well just crawl around. Even without the Symbiote, Scorpion is powerful enough to take down Cortez.


Winner- Scorpion

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: Fabian Cortez Vs Scorpion

While I agree that Cortez could have plans to the prison, I still don't think he could work the security system. He doesn't need codes and keys to break someone out of prison. Yes, he will know where the main controls/power grid is, but he won't know the codes, because he didn't need that info. Why shut down the cells defenses by inputting the codes when you can just blow it up, and cause more chaos? Remeber, this is a prison break, not a jewel heist, there is no need for stealth. And being the tactician that he is, Cortez would enjoy blowing out all the power to all the cells since it would create a diversion. Disabling something is much easier than enabling.

Cortez may not have needed to know certain things during previous attempted prison breaks but that doesn't stop him reading up on them this time. Also, the plans would be useless if they didn't contain important information such as access codes.

A) Once again I disagree. I don't think we'll change each other's mind on this, it's up to the voters to decide.

B) Same as above

C) Yeah, I read Phaed's message about 5 minutes ago. While it felt like a swift kick in the nuts, the part about Cortez's weapons still stand. A gun doesn't have much affect on Scorpion.

A & B)) OK

C) I feel a little guilty about that as I did ask the question for clarification






Not too much though t:

You're not giving enough credit to his bloodlust for the 2. If we take your situation, you have to count on two things.

1) That Scorpion even knows who the hell Fabian Cortez is. I doubt he does. So while we know him as an important player with some political pull, Scorpion probably doesn't. So it's just some random dude telling him that he can get him JJJ and Spidey. He won't listen to him.

2) Fabian Cortez has been shooting at the guy for a while now until Scorpion catches up to him (might not be that long since Scorpion is faster). Mentioning the names of JJ and Spidey aren't going to make him calm down, they're going to piss him off even more. You know what you get when you have an already pumped up Scorpion and you piss him off? A dead Cortez. He won't listen to Cortez, which makes it impossible for him to be swayed.

The JJJ/Spidey ploy by Cortez may or may not work and it won't be decisive either way by itself, so again this can go to the voters.

The question just isn't about Scorpion's speed, but about Cortez's as well. Cortez's entire plan rely on getting to the control room of the prison before Scorpion gets to him. IF they are transported to the prison at the beginning of the match and are anywhere near each other, Fabian has already lost. There is no way he can outrun Scorpion long enough to even get there.

It wouldn't be consistent with other matches if the two appeared right next to each other as the location of any fight becomes a little irrelevant if it starts at that range. As you say, Scorpion is undoubtedly faster, but Cortez knows exactly where he needs to go and what he needs to do with military precision following his prep time planning (unlike Scorpion).

As for the weapons in the prison, those won't be just lying around on the tables, those will be in a secure lock-up that (once again) I don't think Cortez will have teh codes to open. (Yet another thing that the voter's will have to decide if he has the ability or not).

Agreed that they'll be locked up, and OK, voters can decide on Cortez's access levels.

Also, since Phaedrus cleraed it up that this is classic Scorpion and not the new one with the venom symbiote, I'd like to point out that while in my previous posts some things aren't as true anymore (mainly his ability to escape) most things still stand. He might not be as powerful or quick as he is as venom, but he is still stronger and faster than Cortez. Also, that means he has his tail-gun back which would come to good use. If Cortez actually tried to get in a firefight with him, Cortez would be screwed, bullets don't hurt Scorpion, and while Cortez is a trained military man, Scorpion is used to fast moving targets like Spider-man, compared to that, Cortez might as well just crawl around.

Cortez will avoid getting embroiled in a straight firefight if he follows the original plans, but is also used to fast moving targets from a career of military campaigns against mutants/superhumans, some of which are faster than Spider-man.

Even without the Symbiote, Scorpion is powerful enough to take down Cortez.

Yeah, most of your arguments weren't based on the symbiote so they generally still apply. I don't disagreee with the majority of your points so this fight could admittedly go either way.

Winner = Fabian Cortez

 

[kytrigger]

A & B)) OK

C) I feel a little guilty about that as I did ask the question for clarification






Not too much though t:

HAHA, don't be. I should have actually and I was planning to, but I was so busy this past week that I was afraid I wouldn't have time to even put up a debate if I waited to get an answer, so I just put the debate up.

The JJJ/Spidey ploy by Cortez may or may not work and it won't be decisive either way by itself, so again this can go to the voters.

I agree. Alot seems to be up to them (go figure on election day)

It wouldn't be consistent with other matches if the two appeared right next to each other as the location of any fight becomes a little irrelevant if it starts at that range. As you say, Scorpion is undoubtedly faster, but Cortez knows exactly where he needs to go and what he needs to do with military precision following his prep time planning (unlike Scorpion).

Not necessarily. Most matches have said that the combatants just start fighting. While some have stated that they appear at random and it takes time to find the opponents (last week had that a few times) there really isn't any set rule about how far apart they appear. I always assumed that it was completely random. While I know they wouldn't appear inches from each other, I could easily see them appearing at the ends of a larger room (like a cafeteria or something.)

Cortez will avoid getting embroiled in a straight firefight if he follows the original plans, but is also used to fast moving targets from a career of military campaigns against mutants/superhumans, some of which are faster than Spider-man.

I agree that he won't want to get in a firefight, but he will if he has to. I don't know many mutants/superhumans that he has faced that are faster than Spider-Man. He has created strategies for others to fight them, but he himself hasn't had to actually fight, which is far different

Yeah, most of your arguments weren't based on the symbiote so they generally still apply. I don't disagreee with the majority of your points so this fight could admittedly go either way.

I could also see this fight going either way and it's definately interesting to see a match-up of brain vs. brawn to such an extreme as this.


Winner- Scorpion

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Harlekin]

Damn, you guys keep making this tough. At least one of these matches involved the flipping of a coin.

Klaw
Lady Deathstrike
Scorpion
Alex Power

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Klaw

*Famine

*Scorpion

*Namora-Exiles

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Klaw
Deathstrike
Scorpion
Namora

 

[kytrigger]

it seems everyone is finished warming up and we are starting to have some really good debates now.

Famine
Klaw
Scorpion
Alex Power

 

[hippy fascist]

Klaw ( Again not a character I'm familiar with [except for secret wars] but the debate swayed me)
Deathstrike (YAAY ME!)
Scorpion (I didn't know this was mac with venom...)
Alex Power (Good debate W25th but Harlekin took it in the end)

 

[Darthphere]

Klaw
Deathstrike
Scorpion
Alex Power

 

[Hellstormer]

Klaw

Famine

Fabian

Namora

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results So Far:

Klaw currently beating Avalanche 7-0
Lady Deathstrike currently beating Famine 4-3
Scorpion currently beating Fabian Cortez 6-1
Alex Powers currently beating Namora-Exiles 4-3

 

[Zoken]

Klaw
Famine
Scorpion
Namora