Phaedrus45
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Thanks. I always end up cut and pasting my "results so far" and I forgot to switch the names around on that one.
Contest of Marvels II Thread 2
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Phaedrus45
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LOCATION: THE RAFT
The Raft is a fictional prison facility for super-human criminals (predominantly supervillians) in the Marvel Universe. It first appeared in Alias #26 as the "Maximum-Maximum Security" facility of the Ryker's Island Maximum Security Penitentiary, a fictionalised version of New York's Riker's Island.
As revealed in New Avengers #1, The Raft is on an island separate from Ryker's Island. The Raft has eight underwater levels of cells. Each cell is surrounded by thick steel and lined with adamantium. The cells have no windows, instead each cell door has a video camera monitoring the inmate it houses. The video surveillance is two-way, allowing for the inmates to see who is looking at them. The inmates' powers are neutralized and they are allowed no human contact.
(The Raft will be empty, except for the two combatants. Anything that would otherwise be inside of The Raft, except for individuals, will be there. That would include such things as whatever weapons or devices that are normally present to keep the inmates in order.)
The Raft is a fictional prison facility for super-human criminals (predominantly supervillians) in the Marvel Universe. It first appeared in Alias #26 as the "Maximum-Maximum Security" facility of the Ryker's Island Maximum Security Penitentiary, a fictionalised version of New York's Riker's Island.
As revealed in New Avengers #1, The Raft is on an island separate from Ryker's Island. The Raft has eight underwater levels of cells. Each cell is surrounded by thick steel and lined with adamantium. The cells have no windows, instead each cell door has a video camera monitoring the inmate it houses. The video surveillance is two-way, allowing for the inmates to see who is looking at them. The inmates' powers are neutralized and they are allowed no human contact.
(The Raft will be empty, except for the two combatants. Anything that would otherwise be inside of The Raft, except for individuals, will be there. That would include such things as whatever weapons or devices that are normally present to keep the inmates in order.)
Phaedrus45
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Nightcrawler vs. Gideon:
First, the bios:
Gideon:
Gideon has the ability to mimic any nearby skill, talent, or power possessed by a person or mechanical being (such as an android or a battle suit) and then reapply or redirect that ability back to the attacker.
Also:
Powers: Gideon had the mutant power to mimic other superhuman powers in his vicinity based on their genetic templates. He is known to have mastered the ability to absorb at least six powers at once and use all copied abilities simultaneously, often in ways the original owners had not yet considered. Gideon had access to genetic templates at his home and businesses, thus enabling him to mimic powers even when superpowered beings were not present. As an External, Gideon was virtually immortal, able to recover from nearly any injury.
Nightcrawler:
He is a line-of-sight teleporter and is also a master swordsman and acrobat (his boyhood - and adult - idol is Errol Flynn). His teleportation, which smells of brimstone and sulfur and makes his signature "BAMF!" noise, takes him through another dimension, although he only actually saw it once. Generally, though, his teleportation is instantaneous. The opening to the dimension travels with Kurt at all times, distorting light and leaving him in shadow when it's light out, and rendering him nearly invisible when he's in shadow. He also has an infallible spatial awareness, which is necessary for him to teleport, because if he does not judge distances accurately, he could end up teleporting into solid matter, which could cripple or kill him. As a result, Kurt generally only 'ports to places that he can see, or to those that he knows very well, like his room in the Mansion.
As you can tell, Gideon will have both his own abilities and Nightcrawlers. (After all, Nightcrawler, with his abilities, will have to get close enough to Gideon in order to use them.) Both characters will know pretty much everything about the other. They both resided in the same circles. The big difference is that Gideon has been known to take on an entire team of mutants or opponents, like with X-Force or New Warriors. I quote:
Until recently, Gideon kept his power a secret, preferring to work behind the scenes. However, the New Warriors, when investigating criminal links of the Taylor Foundation, caused Gideon to reveal his mutant powers and sadistic temperament. He soundly defeated them.
As he "soundly defeated" the entire New Warrior's team, tackling this one mutant whose abilities will be easily adapted won't be a problem.
Winner = Gideon
First, the bios:
Gideon:
Gideon has the ability to mimic any nearby skill, talent, or power possessed by a person or mechanical being (such as an android or a battle suit) and then reapply or redirect that ability back to the attacker.
Also:
Powers: Gideon had the mutant power to mimic other superhuman powers in his vicinity based on their genetic templates. He is known to have mastered the ability to absorb at least six powers at once and use all copied abilities simultaneously, often in ways the original owners had not yet considered. Gideon had access to genetic templates at his home and businesses, thus enabling him to mimic powers even when superpowered beings were not present. As an External, Gideon was virtually immortal, able to recover from nearly any injury.
Nightcrawler:
He is a line-of-sight teleporter and is also a master swordsman and acrobat (his boyhood - and adult - idol is Errol Flynn). His teleportation, which smells of brimstone and sulfur and makes his signature "BAMF!" noise, takes him through another dimension, although he only actually saw it once. Generally, though, his teleportation is instantaneous. The opening to the dimension travels with Kurt at all times, distorting light and leaving him in shadow when it's light out, and rendering him nearly invisible when he's in shadow. He also has an infallible spatial awareness, which is necessary for him to teleport, because if he does not judge distances accurately, he could end up teleporting into solid matter, which could cripple or kill him. As a result, Kurt generally only 'ports to places that he can see, or to those that he knows very well, like his room in the Mansion.
As you can tell, Gideon will have both his own abilities and Nightcrawlers. (After all, Nightcrawler, with his abilities, will have to get close enough to Gideon in order to use them.) Both characters will know pretty much everything about the other. They both resided in the same circles. The big difference is that Gideon has been known to take on an entire team of mutants or opponents, like with X-Force or New Warriors. I quote:
Until recently, Gideon kept his power a secret, preferring to work behind the scenes. However, the New Warriors, when investigating criminal links of the Taylor Foundation, caused Gideon to reveal his mutant powers and sadistic temperament. He soundly defeated them.
As he "soundly defeated" the entire New Warrior's team, tackling this one mutant whose abilities will be easily adapted won't be a problem.
Winner = Gideon
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Alright, we got ourselves an interesting match here. On one hand we got Lord templar who, judging from his bio, seems somewhat impressive I will admit. But he is up against Hydro-man, who doesn't strike fear into everyone's heart at first, he definately has a MAJOR advantage in this fight.
First off powers:
Lord Templar seems to have superstrength, can shoot energy beams, and extra durability that comes with all superstrength characters. Also, he can summon the "avatars of templar" which are basically just versions of himself all with a specific power. Each avatar has one of the following powers:
1. superstrength
2. shoot energy blasts
3. ricochet off walls
4. drain power from others
5. can turn his hands into knives
Hydro-man is basically like living water. He can transorm himself entirely into water, or just a part of himself if he chooses too. Through this he can shoot streams of water at high speeds at people or even pass through doors by making himself entirely liquid. He has also had an upgrade to his powers, allowing himself to be able to control all water in his vicinity (even the water in somebody's body).
Okay, so first off, I'll go over the avatars' powers because most, wouldn't really affect Hydro-man.
1. Superstrength- not reall a big deal since physical acts don't really hurt hydro-man. He would just constantly reshape himself.
2. Ricochet off walls- what the hell is this power anyway? Flubber sucks as a super power. But just like the strength, this wouldn't be able to harm HM
3. knife hands- another crappy power. he can't do anything either.
The onyl ones that even have a shot at actually hurting HM are the energy blasts, and MAYBE the power drainer. Although, since it's pretty hard for Hydro-man to be touched and since he's not like a normal human, it could very well be impossible for the guy to drain his energy.
Even the energy blasts might not hurt him. It depends on what type of energy. If it's just concussive force (like Cyclops), then it won't do squat to him.
Okay, so now let's talk about the HUGE advantage Hydro-man has. The Raft. Here is a quote on our location:
Okay, now let's look at an except of Hydro-man's powers:
Hydro-man controls all water around him, and he's fighting in an arena submerged by millions of tons of water.
Hydro-man, will just simply attack the Raft itself. Not only will Lord Templar and his avatars be crushed by the force of the water coming in, but if they do somehow survive, they will be underwater. Lord Templar is a human (or mutant). He still needs to breathe, while Hydro-man couldn't be anymore comfortable.
And it's not like Lord Templar can hurt Hydro-man with all the water around. What's he gonna do, shoot all the water? Not a chance.
If Lord Templar isn't instantly crushed by the tons of water, then he will either drown after a couple of minutes, or he will decide to save his own skin and teleport away, which is a forfeit. Either way, Hydro-man wins because of the location advantage.
Winner- Hydro-man
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OPENING COMMENTS: Nightcrawler vs Gideon
Ah, my second match against Phaedrus this week. Gideon is a pretty powerful and versatile character, that I'm afraid is going to have to lose against the simplicity of Nightcrawler's array of abilities. A location like the Raft is ideally suited to a guy like Kurt. Not only does he have shadows to hide in, it's large and gives a splendid element of surprise. The fact that the Raft didn't exist in Gideon's time makes it all the better, since Nightcrawler will have a definitive knowledge advantage in that area.
A simple breakdown of the powers of both:
Gideon would seemingly have the advantage here, being able to copy Nightcrawler's powers. Thing is, Nightcrawler will know of this ability thanks to the X-Men and XSE files he has access too. Gideon will also be able to find information on Nightcrawler, but it will be severely outdated. Nightcrawler will know that the element of surprise is essential in defeating Gideon.
Nightcrawler has a few advantages that will allow him to do this:
- Teleportation.
- Blending into shadows.
- Wall crawling.
- His natural agility.
Now, there is a number of ways Nightcrawler can take out Gideon:
- Multi-teleportation to disorient and hurt Gideon. Naturally, one would assume that Gideon would become immune to this once he adapts Nightcrawler's powers, but this is not the natural result of his powers, but of Nightcrawler's training.
- Rapidfire punches via teleportation (which is said to pack about the same punch as a Ms. Marvel powers Rogue).
- Any number of tactics involving his impressive hand-to-hand abilities and his teleportation, like throwing Gideon around the room until he's knocked out.
The most unconventional strategy however, is also the most simple:
Using the schematics to the Raft that Nightcrawler has access to as a licensed XSE officer, he will be able to make his way to the control room in a matter of seconds. Activation of security shouldn't be hard, and 24 hours of prep-time should aid him either way. While the security measures in the prison will detect Gideon as a hostile presence, Nightcrawler will be safe, because of his essentially being a government action. The security precautions in the Raft allow for drugging and power dampening. It's held characters like Graviton, so it should be able to hold Gideon.
The element of surprise is Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler has an experience and knowledge edge (especially concerning his own powers, which Gideon will undoubtedly duplicate at one point during the match). Nightcrawler can take this by careful planning and not letting up a second. Both are things he's known for when he puts his mind to it.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
Ah, my second match against Phaedrus this week. Gideon is a pretty powerful and versatile character, that I'm afraid is going to have to lose against the simplicity of Nightcrawler's array of abilities. A location like the Raft is ideally suited to a guy like Kurt. Not only does he have shadows to hide in, it's large and gives a splendid element of surprise. The fact that the Raft didn't exist in Gideon's time makes it all the better, since Nightcrawler will have a definitive knowledge advantage in that area.
A simple breakdown of the powers of both:
Gideon said:
Nightcrawler said:
Gideon would seemingly have the advantage here, being able to copy Nightcrawler's powers. Thing is, Nightcrawler will know of this ability thanks to the X-Men and XSE files he has access too. Gideon will also be able to find information on Nightcrawler, but it will be severely outdated. Nightcrawler will know that the element of surprise is essential in defeating Gideon.
Nightcrawler has a few advantages that will allow him to do this:
- Teleportation.
- Blending into shadows.
- Wall crawling.
- His natural agility.
Now, there is a number of ways Nightcrawler can take out Gideon:
- Multi-teleportation to disorient and hurt Gideon. Naturally, one would assume that Gideon would become immune to this once he adapts Nightcrawler's powers, but this is not the natural result of his powers, but of Nightcrawler's training.
- Rapidfire punches via teleportation (which is said to pack about the same punch as a Ms. Marvel powers Rogue).
- Any number of tactics involving his impressive hand-to-hand abilities and his teleportation, like throwing Gideon around the room until he's knocked out.
The most unconventional strategy however, is also the most simple:
Using the schematics to the Raft that Nightcrawler has access to as a licensed XSE officer, he will be able to make his way to the control room in a matter of seconds. Activation of security shouldn't be hard, and 24 hours of prep-time should aid him either way. While the security measures in the prison will detect Gideon as a hostile presence, Nightcrawler will be safe, because of his essentially being a government action. The security precautions in the Raft allow for drugging and power dampening. It's held characters like Graviton, so it should be able to hold Gideon.
The element of surprise is Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler has an experience and knowledge edge (especially concerning his own powers, which Gideon will undoubtedly duplicate at one point during the match). Nightcrawler can take this by careful planning and not letting up a second. Both are things he's known for when he puts his mind to it.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
Harlekin
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REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon
- Knowledge of Gideon and his powers.
- Simplicity in powers. Gideon faced a team, giving him an incredible array of powers for him to use.
- Working alone means you're not getting in the way of your team.
Besides that, Gideon would have to learn the teleportation abilities for himself, but by the time he can actually be effective with them, Nightcrawler will have taken them out. There's also the possibility of Kurt not even getting near him and letting the Raft do the dirty work for him.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
Abilities he will have to learn. Yes, although Gideon has used the powers of other mutants in ways they had not previously thought of, Gideon has nowhere near the experience with Kurt's powers than Kurt has himself. Since Nightcrawler won't be letting up for a second, there's no actual advantage for Gideon in that.
Not necessarily true. Besides the fact that Nightcrawler will have info on Gideon since the X-Teams regularly gave one another info, and he has access to XSE files, any info Gideon could scrounge up would be outdated. Gideon has never even met the X-Men, and at that time, Nightcrawler was in Europe with Excalibur, and in alternate realities for half of that time. I originally postulated that Gideon would be able to get info on Nightcrawler, but I've come to severely doubt that. During that time, X-Force was not on good foot with the X-Men, and they met Excalibur maybe once. There's nothing that suggests Gideon will be able to find info on Kurt.
Nightcrawler has numerous advantages over the New Warriors team:
- Knowledge of Gideon and his powers.
- Simplicity in powers. Gideon faced a team, giving him an incredible array of powers for him to use.
- Working alone means you're not getting in the way of your team.
Besides that, Gideon would have to learn the teleportation abilities for himself, but by the time he can actually be effective with them, Nightcrawler will have taken them out. There's also the possibility of Kurt not even getting near him and letting the Raft do the dirty work for him.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
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Lord Templar vs. Hydro-Man - Opening remarks
Lord Templars origin and history is complicated, so I will not get into that, I will just list his powers.
Lord Templar can do several things at a high level, he can fire energy blasts, can teleport, can fly at high speeds, has telekinetic powers and can summon 'avatars' each having a specific power ranging from super strength to intangibility. He also has an incredibly high degree of durability taking direct attacks from foes such as Photon, Jack of Hearts, Vision, Firestar, Justice, Scarlet Witch, and Thor with little to no affect. His telekinetic powers are strong enough to thrust back Firestar and even Thor. Also of note that Lord Templar can call upon his avatars at will, and call them back just as easily. He also can call upon as many of a certain type as he wants, ie he can call five super strength guys, or five intangible guys.
Hydro-Man can turn his body into water using this water to attack his foes, and he can also control the water around him including adding it to his mass.
I really don't think either of these characters know anything about eachother, so that will not be a factor.
The arena of battle will favor Hydro-Man as it is surrounded by water, and includes levels with large amounts of water.
The main weakness of Hydro-Man exploitable by Lord Templar is that he is very susceptable to electric attacks and basic energy attacks, as demonstrated by Black Panther version 2 in issue #14. Black Panther was able to charge his suit with static electricity which was discharged when he was engulfed in Hydro-Man, which made him disperse quickly. Black Panther also had an energy blade type weapon which also dispelled Hydro-Man on contact.
That established, I see the battle taking place with Lord Templar surveying the scene from above and then directly attacking Hydro-Man when sighted. Lord Templar has immense energy attacks which could affect Hydro-Man, and this alone could disperse him enough to weaken him and end the battle.
Lord Templar would not be affected by Hydro-Man's attacks as they are weak when compared to those he has faced before, and if surrounded by Hydro-Man and trapped, he could just teleport to safety.
While most of his avatars would be useless, the one that could take on Hydro-Man and be successful would be the one with the power of intangibility, as his powers are also electrical in nature, and while phasing through The Vision those electrical impulses downed The Vision. Look here:
Lord Templar could send a slew of his intangible avatars at Hydro-Man, and their ability to phase and discharge electrical impulses when doing so would sent Hydro-Man reeling dispersing him at every turn and eventually weakening him enough to win the battle.
Winner: Lord Templar
Lord Templars origin and history is complicated, so I will not get into that, I will just list his powers.
Lord Templar can do several things at a high level, he can fire energy blasts, can teleport, can fly at high speeds, has telekinetic powers and can summon 'avatars' each having a specific power ranging from super strength to intangibility. He also has an incredibly high degree of durability taking direct attacks from foes such as Photon, Jack of Hearts, Vision, Firestar, Justice, Scarlet Witch, and Thor with little to no affect. His telekinetic powers are strong enough to thrust back Firestar and even Thor. Also of note that Lord Templar can call upon his avatars at will, and call them back just as easily. He also can call upon as many of a certain type as he wants, ie he can call five super strength guys, or five intangible guys.
Hydro-Man can turn his body into water using this water to attack his foes, and he can also control the water around him including adding it to his mass.
I really don't think either of these characters know anything about eachother, so that will not be a factor.
The arena of battle will favor Hydro-Man as it is surrounded by water, and includes levels with large amounts of water.
The main weakness of Hydro-Man exploitable by Lord Templar is that he is very susceptable to electric attacks and basic energy attacks, as demonstrated by Black Panther version 2 in issue #14. Black Panther was able to charge his suit with static electricity which was discharged when he was engulfed in Hydro-Man, which made him disperse quickly. Black Panther also had an energy blade type weapon which also dispelled Hydro-Man on contact.
That established, I see the battle taking place with Lord Templar surveying the scene from above and then directly attacking Hydro-Man when sighted. Lord Templar has immense energy attacks which could affect Hydro-Man, and this alone could disperse him enough to weaken him and end the battle.
Lord Templar would not be affected by Hydro-Man's attacks as they are weak when compared to those he has faced before, and if surrounded by Hydro-Man and trapped, he could just teleport to safety.
While most of his avatars would be useless, the one that could take on Hydro-Man and be successful would be the one with the power of intangibility, as his powers are also electrical in nature, and while phasing through The Vision those electrical impulses downed The Vision. Look here:
Lord Templar could send a slew of his intangible avatars at Hydro-Man, and their ability to phase and discharge electrical impulses when doing so would sent Hydro-Man reeling dispersing him at every turn and eventually weakening him enough to win the battle.
Winner: Lord Templar
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You forgot to mention telekinesis and teleportation. Also of note is he can call any or all of his avatars, including the ability to call multiples of one type.
Black Panther's energy blade was able to hurt and disperse Hydro-Man, giving Lord Templars a good chance of affecting him too.
The intangible avatar also discharges electric impulses when he phases through things, as he did against the Vision knocking him out, this alone would send Hydro-Man reeling.
Lord Templar has taken blasts from the mightiest of Avengers, including a blindsided hit from Mjolner, water will not hurt him. While stating stating that a character that withstood attacks from the best of Avengers would just 'drown', he can also teleport away from the water if needed.
Again, if Lord Templars energy attacks won't hurt Hydro-Man, which they very well could, his intangible avatar could.
Lord Templar is just too versitile and powerful for Hydro-Man, and would have no problem with killing if needed.
Winner: Lord Templar
Rebuttal
I'll also point out that while Hydro-man is in no way a genius, many have tried to play him as a complete idiot, which he is not. He knows his weaknesses, and if it is obvious his opponnent is shooting energy or eectrictally charged (which it is with the avatars) he will stay away from them.
Winner- Hydro-man
thank god I'm not the only one who thinks his past is complicated
yep...pretty much agree with it all so far.
Agree. I also don't think either would have much knowledge of The Raft. They might know it's a prison, but that would probably be it.
True, these are weaknesses. I will however point out that it depends on teh type of energy attack. A concussive force energy attack like Cyclops wouldn't really affect him at all. Something like a super-heated attack could.
I'll also point out that while Hydro-man is in no way a genius, many have tried to play him as a complete idiot, which he is not. He knows his weaknesses, and if it is obvious his opponnent is shooting energy or eectrictally charged (which it is with the avatars) he will stay away from them.
How would he see him form above? The entire prison is just a bunch of underwater hallways and closed off cells. Plus you can't actually leave the raft or it's a ring out. There really isn't any way for Templar to do a good survey to find Hydro-man because of the location.
I agree that Hydro-man's water jets wouldn't hurt him really. But Hydro-man flooding the entire place would.
I now agree that he could hurt Hydro-man (before I thought he only messed up electrical devices like other phasers). BUT this is a double edged sword of sorts for Templar. Most electrical beings (like electro for example) might work against water, but water is also their weakness too. Hydro-man will at the very start of this battle start bringing the entire Raft to it's knees by flooding it. If these electrical avatars get hit by waters, they are screwed, and there will be a LOT of water in a very short amount of time. They won't have time to find Hydro-man an dattack him before the water royally messes them up.
Besides what i just wrote above, I'll also note that once the water surrounds everyone, they only have a couple of minutes to fight Hydro-man before they themselves die. And at that point, it is impossible to really hurt Hydro-man since everything around them is water.
Winner- Hydro-man
fair enough. My bad. i will point out that his telekinesis can't really hurt Hydro-man, and his teleportation is limited quite a bit by the location.
true, but Templar shoots energy, and it's fairly obvious that he does. Hydro-man knows energy can hurt him, and he wouldn't just go charging in randomly when he can see that he wields energy that could hurt him. He's not THAT dumb.
Plus, once the Raft is filled with water, his energy won't be able to really hurt Hydro-man much at all, if Templar can even find him in the water.
Yeah, but water would also send the electrical avatar(s) reeling too, as is the case with most electrical types. And there will be much more water around to mess with them than they ever imagined. They would have to find Hydro-man befoer he flooded the Rft which wouldn't take very long. They simply don't have enough time to hurt him.
Oh, Templar can takea hit, I never said he couldn't. But there is a major difference between taking a hit (even from Thor) and being surrounded by tons of water and pressure and having it all "attack" every single inch of you. Remeber, Hydro-man controls this water, he will use it to hit as hard and as fast as he can.
But even then, I admit it might ot knock Templar out or anything, but he is still in water and drowning.
And where exactly could he teleport to to get him out of this? The entire place is underwater. He can teleport somewhere, but that new place would be jsut as underwater as the last place. The only place he can teleport to that isn't underwater would be a ring out.
right, and Hydro-man's water would also destroy his electrical avatar too.
I agree that Templar is indeed powerful and versatile. In most cases he would beat Hydro-man. But the Raft is a MAJOR advantage for Hydro-man and large enough so that Hydro-man can beat Templar.
Winner- Hydro-man
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Lord Templar vs. Hydro-Man - Rebuttals
Definately not a concussive attack, as his energy blasts seems to burn at the character he attacks.
Then he'd have no way of attacking him if he 'stayed away', he will have to engage to win this battle.
Templar is a calculating dude, while Hydro-Man is more bent on agression and will confront Templar when he has the chance. This is kind of pointless too, as they will have to fight eventually, so hide and seek won't be a factor.
Also, flooding the entire place would not work against Lord Templar, with his ability to teleport, fire blasts of energy, phase and his closed systems(meaning he can't be drowned, Photon tried her trick of flying through somebody, she couldn't, he is protected by some kind of force field) there is no reason he would be 'trapped', he has many ways of getting away.
These electrical avatars are also the intangible ones, so they'll just pass through the water unharmed.
Between Lord Templars ability to teleport, phase, fire massive energy blasts, his closed system and his intangible eletrical impulse emitting avatars he has plenty of ways of hurting Hydro-Man, and plenty of ways of getting free if surrounded by water. You are really overstating their abilities to get trapped and simply drown.
Winner: Lord Templar
Definately not a concussive attack, as his energy blasts seems to burn at the character he attacks.
Then he'd have no way of attacking him if he 'stayed away', he will have to engage to win this battle.
Templar is a calculating dude, while Hydro-Man is more bent on agression and will confront Templar when he has the chance. This is kind of pointless too, as they will have to fight eventually, so hide and seek won't be a factor.
Also, flooding the entire place would not work against Lord Templar, with his ability to teleport, fire blasts of energy, phase and his closed systems(meaning he can't be drowned, Photon tried her trick of flying through somebody, she couldn't, he is protected by some kind of force field) there is no reason he would be 'trapped', he has many ways of getting away.
These electrical avatars are also the intangible ones, so they'll just pass through the water unharmed.
Between Lord Templars ability to teleport, phase, fire massive energy blasts, his closed system and his intangible eletrical impulse emitting avatars he has plenty of ways of hurting Hydro-Man, and plenty of ways of getting free if surrounded by water. You are really overstating their abilities to get trapped and simply drown.
Winner: Lord Templar
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Lord Templar vs. Hydro-Man - Rebuttals
How would his teleportation 'trick' be limited by the location, he has shown the ability to teleport on-spot, at will, coming from nowhere to right where he wanted to go. He is also intangible and can pass through solid matter.
Also, his telekinesis can hurt Hyrdo-Man in the sense that he can break him up by repelling him, limiting the strength of his attacks.
He still has to eventually attack, or respond to attack, so this knowledge is pointless.
Again, those same avatars are intangible, they would pass through the water without fail.
Again, teleportation, intangibility, immense energy blasts, he has many ways of getting out of a mass of water.
How about 'outside', there is an outside on the island, just to let you know.
Winner: Lord Templar
How would his teleportation 'trick' be limited by the location, he has shown the ability to teleport on-spot, at will, coming from nowhere to right where he wanted to go. He is also intangible and can pass through solid matter.
Also, his telekinesis can hurt Hyrdo-Man in the sense that he can break him up by repelling him, limiting the strength of his attacks.
He still has to eventually attack, or respond to attack, so this knowledge is pointless.
Again, those same avatars are intangible, they would pass through the water without fail.
Again, teleportation, intangibility, immense energy blasts, he has many ways of getting out of a mass of water.
How about 'outside', there is an outside on the island, just to let you know.
Winner: Lord Templar
wiegeabo
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Carrion vs Colossus
Prep-time is iffy for both characters. It's likely they could get basic information on each other from public sources like newspapers. Colossus may even be able to get more if Carrion is in the X-Men databases, even though he's not a mutant.
Carrion's most effective power, destroying organic matter with a touch, seems useless here since Colossus' skin can be covered by steel. But that's not as big a problem as you might think.
First, if Carrion does touch Piotr while his armor is down, it's an easy win. He'll kill him.
Secondly, Carrion can levitate, making it harder for Piotr to attack him.
Third, if Piotr does attack him directly, or by throwing things, Carrion can control his density, making the attacks less effective.
Top those off with telepathy and super strength, Carrion can not only know what Colossus is going to do, but if powerful enough, he can control or manipulate Colossus. As well as land his own powerful attacks on Piotr.
But the most important thing is Colossus steel skin protecting him from most attacks. And Carrion can only destroy organic matter. The thing is, Colossus covers himself with ORGANIC STEEL. This means that Piotr's armor will do nothing to keep him safe. Colossus just landing the punch gives Carrion the chance to disintegrate his armor and hand, if not kill him outright. And if Colossus doesn't know about Carrion's ability, he's doomed because he'll likely go with a direct attack first, confident his armor will keep him safe like it usually does.
This is going to be one of the few times that Colossus' organic steel is going to let him down.
Carrion wins
Prep-time is iffy for both characters. It's likely they could get basic information on each other from public sources like newspapers. Colossus may even be able to get more if Carrion is in the X-Men databases, even though he's not a mutant.
Carrion's most effective power, destroying organic matter with a touch, seems useless here since Colossus' skin can be covered by steel. But that's not as big a problem as you might think.
First, if Carrion does touch Piotr while his armor is down, it's an easy win. He'll kill him.
Secondly, Carrion can levitate, making it harder for Piotr to attack him.
Third, if Piotr does attack him directly, or by throwing things, Carrion can control his density, making the attacks less effective.
Top those off with telepathy and super strength, Carrion can not only know what Colossus is going to do, but if powerful enough, he can control or manipulate Colossus. As well as land his own powerful attacks on Piotr.
But the most important thing is Colossus steel skin protecting him from most attacks. And Carrion can only destroy organic matter. The thing is, Colossus covers himself with ORGANIC STEEL. This means that Piotr's armor will do nothing to keep him safe. Colossus just landing the punch gives Carrion the chance to disintegrate his armor and hand, if not kill him outright. And if Colossus doesn't know about Carrion's ability, he's doomed because he'll likely go with a direct attack first, confident his armor will keep him safe like it usually does.
This is going to be one of the few times that Colossus' organic steel is going to let him down.
Carrion wins
JewishHobbit
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Colossus Vs Carrion
Okay, so this match could be interesting to watch. Now when it comes to Preptime, I think the advantage is for Colossus. While it would be easy to get info on Colossus, Carrion doesn't come accross as the type of character that would go through a ton of research to learn a foe. However, if he sees Colossus he'll pretty much have whatever idea he needs for the match. Colossus will luck out in that Carrion was a major contributor of death during Maximum Carnage. Carrion will be widely known because of it as much as Carnage, Shriek, and the others are. All Colossus has to do is look up that situation and he'll figure out Carrion's touch power. Both will know going in what they're facing, but the advantage is Colossus' because he'd have more to lose if he went in blind. So now they're going in on more level ground. Colossus will know going in not to let Carrion touch him, though it's obvious through all the times Spidey's hit him that Colossus hitting Carrion won't effect Colossus. All he has to do is get a hit in without Carrion's touching him.
Now, when it comes to powers, Colossus' powers are pretty much obvious, so that's all fine. Now let's have a look at Carrion's powers and see how they'll effect this match. According to the bio....
Death Touch: Carrion's touch kills anything organic, and this could cause a problem in that Colossus in his metal form is still organic. The advantage for Colossus however is that while Carrion's touch kills normal people quickly, when he's used it on Spidey, it's typically quick but Spidey survives (such as in the Shrieking storyline just prior to the Clone Saga). He grabbed Spidey by the head (solid hold) and he started to drain Spidey, but Shriek made him let go. He had the touch going and while it took a lot out of Spidey, he survived and regained his barings shortly after. Thus, I think we can assume that if Carrion touches Colossus, it won't kill him instantly and Colossus should be able to turn and knock Carrion off of him. It'll weaken him, but he can survive. However, Carrion doesn't seem to have enhanced durability, so a good hit by Colossus should take him out quickly.
Super Strength: While he has super strength, he's nowhere Colossus level. I'm not worried about it. Also, do not confuse super strength with enhanced durability. He can dish a hit, but he can't take it like many. One Colossus punch should do the trick and take him out.
Telepathy: This doesn't bother me in the slightest. Why? Because though he had it at first, he doesn't now. The bio says that he started with it but then he says he no longer has it, and he hasn't since. This is the most recent version of Carrion, so since he only had it at first, he doesn't have it now. It's not a factor.
Levitation: He can float and fly and such... but not only has Colossus fought flyers many times before, it's an enclosed playing field, so flying only goes so far. And also, everything I've read with Carrion has him hovering above the ground, not full out flying through the air and such. It shouldn't be hard for Colossus to get him into reach. Heck, his only attack is a physical attack, so he'll have to get close eventually anyhow.
Density: Can't recall anything that shows this, save for maybe making himself lighter to levitate, but it doesn't seem to be something that will help much against Colossus. He can make himself light, but he can't phase or anything, nothing big there. He can increase his density (I'd assume) and become heavier, but it doesn't make him Colossus level strong, or more resistant to harm. I don't see this as a factor really for this match.
So in general the only thing that may help Carrion win the match is his death touch, and since it takes obviously more than a few seconds for it to kill Superhumans, I think that's enough time to allow Colossus to turn and knock Carrion out. That's worse case scenario though. Remember that Colossus is quick for a large man, and having studied Carrion from his Max. Carnage days, he'll know not to get touched by Carrion. So he'll be watching for Carrion and wont' allow him to touch him. He is far more experienced than Carrion in battle and trained far more than Carrion. Where Carrion's idea of battle is grab and go, Colossus has actually been trained to fight calculatingly and such. I honestly don't see Carrion getting a finger in before Colossus deals the winning blow.
Winner - Colossus
Okay, so this match could be interesting to watch. Now when it comes to Preptime, I think the advantage is for Colossus. While it would be easy to get info on Colossus, Carrion doesn't come accross as the type of character that would go through a ton of research to learn a foe. However, if he sees Colossus he'll pretty much have whatever idea he needs for the match. Colossus will luck out in that Carrion was a major contributor of death during Maximum Carnage. Carrion will be widely known because of it as much as Carnage, Shriek, and the others are. All Colossus has to do is look up that situation and he'll figure out Carrion's touch power. Both will know going in what they're facing, but the advantage is Colossus' because he'd have more to lose if he went in blind. So now they're going in on more level ground. Colossus will know going in not to let Carrion touch him, though it's obvious through all the times Spidey's hit him that Colossus hitting Carrion won't effect Colossus. All he has to do is get a hit in without Carrion's touching him.
Now, when it comes to powers, Colossus' powers are pretty much obvious, so that's all fine. Now let's have a look at Carrion's powers and see how they'll effect this match. According to the bio....
Death Touch: Carrion's touch kills anything organic, and this could cause a problem in that Colossus in his metal form is still organic. The advantage for Colossus however is that while Carrion's touch kills normal people quickly, when he's used it on Spidey, it's typically quick but Spidey survives (such as in the Shrieking storyline just prior to the Clone Saga). He grabbed Spidey by the head (solid hold) and he started to drain Spidey, but Shriek made him let go. He had the touch going and while it took a lot out of Spidey, he survived and regained his barings shortly after. Thus, I think we can assume that if Carrion touches Colossus, it won't kill him instantly and Colossus should be able to turn and knock Carrion off of him. It'll weaken him, but he can survive. However, Carrion doesn't seem to have enhanced durability, so a good hit by Colossus should take him out quickly.
Super Strength: While he has super strength, he's nowhere Colossus level. I'm not worried about it. Also, do not confuse super strength with enhanced durability. He can dish a hit, but he can't take it like many. One Colossus punch should do the trick and take him out.
Telepathy: This doesn't bother me in the slightest. Why? Because though he had it at first, he doesn't now. The bio says that he started with it but then he says he no longer has it, and he hasn't since. This is the most recent version of Carrion, so since he only had it at first, he doesn't have it now. It's not a factor.
Levitation: He can float and fly and such... but not only has Colossus fought flyers many times before, it's an enclosed playing field, so flying only goes so far. And also, everything I've read with Carrion has him hovering above the ground, not full out flying through the air and such. It shouldn't be hard for Colossus to get him into reach. Heck, his only attack is a physical attack, so he'll have to get close eventually anyhow.
Density: Can't recall anything that shows this, save for maybe making himself lighter to levitate, but it doesn't seem to be something that will help much against Colossus. He can make himself light, but he can't phase or anything, nothing big there. He can increase his density (I'd assume) and become heavier, but it doesn't make him Colossus level strong, or more resistant to harm. I don't see this as a factor really for this match.
So in general the only thing that may help Carrion win the match is his death touch, and since it takes obviously more than a few seconds for it to kill Superhumans, I think that's enough time to allow Colossus to turn and knock Carrion out. That's worse case scenario though. Remember that Colossus is quick for a large man, and having studied Carrion from his Max. Carnage days, he'll know not to get touched by Carrion. So he'll be watching for Carrion and wont' allow him to touch him. He is far more experienced than Carrion in battle and trained far more than Carrion. Where Carrion's idea of battle is grab and go, Colossus has actually been trained to fight calculatingly and such. I honestly don't see Carrion getting a finger in before Colossus deals the winning blow.
Winner - Colossus
JewishHobbit
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I think both will go in with a good idea of who their opponant is. As I said in my write up though, I think this benefits Colossus more, as he had more to lose by going in blind. Carrion's attack strategy should be the same as always, but now Colossus knows it's coming.
Thing is, everyone saw how Carrion's powers work during Maximum Carnage. It won't be hard for Colossus to study this and learn it. That means that he will not go into battle steel-less (when does he ever anyhow?) and as I showed in my write up, when Carrion touches superhumans, it takes a little longer to kill them. Colossus should have the chance to counter if he even touches him, though I doubt he'll be quick enough to land the attack.
He's always come accross as a fairly slow character or at least not extremely quick (now this is comics remember, not that old Maximum Carnage video game that has him quick as can be). Colossus will know to watch for Carrion, so the touch won't get landed.
Covered in my write up
Not sure how this helps really.
Read that bio again. Carrion only had telepathy in his earlest appearances. He doesn't now. The telepathy isn't a factor in this match. He is strong, but I highly doubt Colossus level strength. Colossus can take his punches, and if he's close enough to punch Colossus, then Colossus is close enough to knock him out.
Colossus wins
wiegeabo
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Was Carrion trying to destroy Spidey with his touch, or just drain him to prolong the agony? It's been a while since I read Maximum Carnage and I can't remember. But I think Carrion's touch just starts disintegrating matter, so his attack on Spidey may have been something different.
But, let's say that Piotr's steel skin gives him some extra protection. Even if it doesn't kill him, or seriously cripple him, Carrion's touch will at the very least weaken Colossus like it did Spidey. And if he can get a good grip on him, like jump on his back, he can seriously push Piotr to the point where he can't really fight anymore or pose much of a threat. At this point, Carrion can keep attacking him, or use his Red Dust which causes pain and is even acidic and eats away at flesh. Piotr's armor may give him some protection, if Carrion's touch hasn't eaten through it, but being organic means it's vulnerable to being eaten by the Dust.
Or, Carrion can use the dust as a trap. He leads Piotr into a good location, and the dust goes off, eating away at Colossus' armor. Carrion uses this to his advantage by attacking Piotr either physically, or with his touch.
It does look like he's no longer telepathic, but that's not really going to hurt his ability to fight much.
As for his control over his density, by making himself more dense, he can increase the force of his attacks, and make himself more durable. It may not be much against a full-strength Colossus, but against a weakened one, it could turn the fight.
Carrion wins
But, let's say that Piotr's steel skin gives him some extra protection. Even if it doesn't kill him, or seriously cripple him, Carrion's touch will at the very least weaken Colossus like it did Spidey. And if he can get a good grip on him, like jump on his back, he can seriously push Piotr to the point where he can't really fight anymore or pose much of a threat. At this point, Carrion can keep attacking him, or use his Red Dust which causes pain and is even acidic and eats away at flesh. Piotr's armor may give him some protection, if Carrion's touch hasn't eaten through it, but being organic means it's vulnerable to being eaten by the Dust.
Or, Carrion can use the dust as a trap. He leads Piotr into a good location, and the dust goes off, eating away at Colossus' armor. Carrion uses this to his advantage by attacking Piotr either physically, or with his touch.
It does look like he's no longer telepathic, but that's not really going to hurt his ability to fight much.
As for his control over his density, by making himself more dense, he can increase the force of his attacks, and make himself more durable. It may not be much against a full-strength Colossus, but against a weakened one, it could turn the fight.
Carrion wins
Phaedrus45
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Yes, Gideon won't know of The Raft; but, I conclude that neither will Nightcrawler. If you go into the Wikipedia, they have an excellent section listing current villians and current escapees from The Raft. I think I noticed maybe one mutant. This obviously isn't a prison that The X-Men are involved with at all. They've never had any interaction with this place, except Wolverine acting with the Avengers. (And, Avenger's information isn't shared with The X-Men; the government's lack of trust with Xavier and his team is apparent.) Basically, there is nothing that suggests that Nightcrawler would have information about The Raft. It never appeared in an X-Men comic, and there villians are not the ones being held in its location.
When I looked at Gideon's appearances with his match in Round 1, his learning and excelling at his other opponents powers were instantaneous. He just knew how to not only do what they do; but, to also excell at those powers in ways the other person just doesn't realize. I never saw any learning of the powers.
Gideon is very, very hard to hurt. He's gone toe-to-toe with some very strong individuals. Plus, once Nightcrawler makes his first move, he'll be close enough to Gideon to get a lock on his powers. If certain moves, like multi-teleporting, doesn't effect Nightcrawler in an adverse way, it won't effect Gideon either. We just might see a bunch of Bamfing around. (But, remember, Nightcrawler has to be pretty aware of the area he's in. And, Nightcrawler gets worn out when using his teleporting powers too much. Nightcrawler will be worn out, but Gideon will have some template powers that Nightcrawler simply won't be able to prepare for.)
I totally disagree with Nightcrawler having access to The Raft, especially with the reason I gave above. The government does not trust mutants, even those they use. Most importantly, this prison is not affiliated with X-Men comics in any way.
Gideon kept track of many, many superpowered individuals and knew about them. Plus, Nightcrawler is definitely one of the most widely known mutants from the pages of X-Men. I have no doubt at all that Gideon would have ample information on him.
(Anyway, this is a quick rebuttal. I might have more to say tomorrow when I have time at work.)\
Winner = Gideon
JewishHobbit
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He was going for the kill and had his hand covering spidey's mask, then Shriek pulled him off of him. When she said she doesn't want to kill him yet, he questioned her saying that he thought they should, showing he was definately going for the kill. And it was in the Shrieking storyline, not Maximum Carnage.
Speaking of Maximum Carnage though, I looked through it and found another example of this. He grabbed Nigh****ch's organic cape and it just kinda burnt at his touch. Nigh****ch then sent a piece of his cape out to knock him off and kept fighting as if he wasn't ever touched. He also touched Morbius by the throat before Morbius was pulled away from him, and a few panels later he was up and fighting just fine. His touch is deadly, but he's got to latch on for a short while for it to be fatal on superhumans. Apparently his touch isn't all it's cracked up to be, and Colossus has taken quite a bit of punishment through the years, he can take it.
I'll grant this. I'm sure it will weaken him, but a weakened Colossus is still stronger than most. But it all depends if Carrion can even get that touch in. Keep in mind, Colossus will know to dodge it and has been trained to deal with such situations. Whose to say that he won't simply carry a long bar or rod or something and look for Carrion. Then Carrion has to get by the long metal baseball bat to get to Colossus so that Colossus can still attack and Carrion is even less likely to get his touch in. Carrion could sneak attack Colossus, but there's just as much chance that Colossus could sneak attack Carrion and take him out. Going by that logic, it's 50/50, whoever sneaks win.... but with every other factor factored in, I think Colossus has the better chance with this match.
Definately not a bad idea, but again Colossus should know about the dust and will know to be careful of it. I think he can get around it as needed.
I'm not impressed with his ability to fight. While looking through Maximum Carnage, he just kinda floated, touched stuff, got knocked back, floated, touched stuff, got knocked back, floated, touched stuff, got knocked back, etc. He was in no way a physical fighter. Then in Shrieking, he encounters Spidey a few times, and just grabbed him in the one scene I mentioned earlier. He actually started fighting in the end and surprised Spidey with two punches... then Spidey caught his fist and beat the holy crap out of him like he wasn't touched. If it came down to Carrion's physical fighting, he's lose big time. If his punches weren't enough to hurt Spidey, they won't do crap to Colossus.
Hmm, possibly. Neither in Maximum Carnage nor in Shrieking did he ever increase his density (that I saw anyhow) so this is obviously not something he does often. It may have been something he did in his early days, like the telepathy, but he doesn't seem to do it now. I won't say that he can't, but if he hasn't done it in about 10 issues or so that I reread with him, I think it's pretty safe to assume he won't do it here. It might help if he did it, but I don't think he will. I wonder if that's another lost power of his.
All in all, I think Colossus has this. I like Carrion, but he's got to go.
Winner - Colossus
Harlekin
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REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon
- Foes such as Count Nefaria (the villain Nightcrawler had to face on his second mission as an X-Man) are held there, so they've got some interest in it.
- Avengers don't always really listen to the government. Xavier and others such an Iron Man have had a pact to exchange information since the Kree-Skrull War, and Beast has been a member of the team. He'll be able to know the basics of the Raft (eight levels, submerged in water, that stuff).
- Nonetheless, the location is still ideally suited to Nightcrawler. He's got shadows to hide in and all other kinds of nifty places. It's a pretty big place, and Kurt has the chance to explore it quicker than Gideon does.
Nightcrawler has the element of surprise, the simplicity of his powers, and the complete mastery over them. Besides that he has a prep-time advantage in both having at least rudimentary knowledge of the Raft and knowing the ins and outs on Gideon.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
- Nightcrawler will know of the Raft in at least such a manner that the existence of the prison is a public matter.
- Foes such as Count Nefaria (the villain Nightcrawler had to face on his second mission as an X-Man) are held there, so they've got some interest in it.
- Avengers don't always really listen to the government. Xavier and others such an Iron Man have had a pact to exchange information since the Kree-Skrull War, and Beast has been a member of the team. He'll be able to know the basics of the Raft (eight levels, submerged in water, that stuff).
- Nonetheless, the location is still ideally suited to Nightcrawler. He's got shadows to hide in and all other kinds of nifty places. It's a pretty big place, and Kurt has the chance to explore it quicker than Gideon does.
I've only read his appearances in the New Warriors and a thing here and there, but I don't recall him excelling at their powers immediately. Then again, he's not really going to get the chance to use them to their advantage.
Which is where the element of surprise comes in, and the fact that his rapidfire punches really hurt. Combining teleportation with his single punch has knocked out grown men. Multiple punches at rapid speed are even more powerful.
They don't adversely affect him thanks to having the powers since his birth and training with them excessively. Nightcrawler has really grown in his teleportation. When he just started out, he wouldn't have dreamt of teleporting from the coast of Manhattan to Alcatraz, and even that was a few years ago already.
Nightcrawler can go a long time before he tires. He's not going to tire before seeing Gideon down and out on the ground.
I've shown ways in which the Raft is important to the X-Men, and yes, the goverment doesn't always trust its mutant agents. Files on prisons however (such as a basic lay-out and who its prisoners are) are essential on the job of any law-enforcement agency. The XSE are such an agency.
A bit of a stretch. He is one of the most widely known mutants to us, the readers. In the comics however, Nightcrawler had already left the X-Men for Muir Island before Gideon even came onto the scene. Before that, they were still very much a secret outlaw operation. After that, Nightcrawler was in Europe and had no interaction with the other X-Teams for a very very long time. To say that Gideon would've info on Nightcrawler is too much of a stretch for me.
Nightcrawler has the element of surprise, the simplicity of his powers, and the complete mastery over them. Besides that he has a prep-time advantage in both having at least rudimentary knowledge of the Raft and knowing the ins and outs on Gideon.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
Phaedrus45
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Yes, he'll have public information; but, that will contain no information of value.
As noted, very few X-Men villians ever come into The Raft; and, Count Nefaria isn't there any longer. There is no way the government would let this information get to the X-Men. After all, it's possible that a member of the X-Men would eventually end up there, as would be the government's thoughts. (Although, I would guess that they might have a more specialized mutant prison, as there aren't very many mutants in that prison.)
Avengers might not always listen to the government; but, they sure wouldn't share such classified information. That could be considered treason. And, any stuff about the Illuminatia is closely tied with Civil War and cannot be used. And, Beast hasn't been a member is ages. There is nothing in any X-Men comic refering to The Raft; and, that generalization doesn't hold up. If there was proof, I might agree; but, there isn't.
Yes, a great location; but, Gideon is aware of Nightcrawler's powers. Plus, I'm not sure how close Gideon has to be to Nightcrawler; but, he'll soon enough sense where he is by tapping into his powers. Also, they probably don't want to many dark places in a prison for supervillians. I would guess it's pretty well lit.
Again, I looked into him last round, and it seemed pretty evident his excelling at powers is pretty instant. (Maybe faster than Darkhawk's transformation.
) I'll post another bio on him below:Gideon had the mutant power to mimic other superhuman powers in his vicinity based on their genetic templates. He is known to have mastered the ability to absorb at least six powers at once and use all copied abilities simultaneously, often in ways the original owners had not yet considered. Gideon had access to genetic templates at his home and businesses, thus enabling him to mimic powers even when superpowered beings were not present. As an External, Gideon was virtually immortal, able to recover from nearly any injury.
As it says, "known to have mastered the ability to absorb at least six powers at once and use all copied abilities simultaneously, often in ways the original owners had not yet considered." From his appearances I've seen, this holds true. Plus, while Nightcrawler is a totally cool character, his power grid in the Official Handbook is less than impressive:
Intelligence: 3/7
Strength: 2/7
Speed: 3/7
Durability: 2/7
Energy Projection: 1/7
Fighting Skills: 3/7
Sadly, I don't have this information on Gideon; because, I'm positive that Gideon would far excell Nightcrawler, especially with the templates he'd have available at his homes or businesses.
Also, while Nightcrawler knows his powers pretty well, it doesn't mean that he's aware of his true potential. After all, a mutant whose been around much, much longer, Iceman, clearly has much larger potential than what he's used. Plus, Nightcrawler is always taking sabaticals, fighting whether he wants to be a man of God or a member of the X-Men.
First, what ever Nightcrawler does, so can Gideon. Second, Nightcrawler's strength is only 2/7. I know Gideon is far more durable than Nightcrawler is strong. I have no worries about Nightcrawler's fists.
It still effects him to some extent; plus, Nightcrawler's existance in the X-Men comics hasn't been one of constant training. He does take his Godly sabaticals from time to time, constantly worrying what he truly wants to do with his life. Plus, for someone so well trained, there are still a vast majority of people whose skills are so much more than his.
Gideon does have access to being much more powerful than Nightcrawler is durable. One hit and Nightcrawler is down for the count.
The government doesn't trust the XSE. Seeing Bishop's interaction with those around him, it's clear he's not given all the information. I see no way in which the government will trust Nightcrawler with this information. Plus, most importantly, I discovered the following information:
The XSE was founded by Storm at the behest of the United Nations in order to police the growing mutant population.
So, the XSE was founded at behest of the United Nations, not the U.S. Government. They are not involved in a state's prison system, and the U.S. is not the same as the U.N..
From what we've learned of Gideon, he keeps track of many, many mutants, because he was always trying to discover the missing External. Plus, his ties with many elements of the criminal underworld are widely known, as shown below:
Gideon first came to public notice when he began forging alliances between high-tech industrial consortiums, such as GeneTech and the Taylor Foundation, and with powerful mutants or secret organizations such as A.I.M. He is known to have formed an alliance with the Toad, who was leading the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants at the time, in a scheme to recreate the menace Proteus. Similarly, he joined a group of hedonists known as the Upstarts, although whether or not he carried through with their goals of killing mutants is unknown.
Most people didn't know of Gideon's many underworld activities. Would either A.I.M. or the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants have access to information on Nightcrawler? Definitely, the Brotherhood does.
With prep-time, and Nightcrawler being in Gideon's proximity, there is no element of surprise. And, simplicity of powers is why Gideon is superior to Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler just isn't that powerful, as his Power Grid shows. (Even I thought he'd be higher in a couple categories; but, he clearly isn't even as skilled a fighter as many other's I've studied this season.)
Winner = Gideon
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REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon
- Nightcrawler will know to keep his distance till the right moment.
- It's a pretty well lit place, but not if Nightcrawler can take out the lights.
2) I've stated a few times now that his strength increases with the teleportation. I also don't put much faith in the 2/7 mark.
- Nightcrawler would know the safe distance away from Gideon.
- Nightcrawler is quite a bit powerful, as reading of comics would show. The power grid underestimates his powers. He regularly spars with Wolverine, and ranks among the top dogs of the X-Men hand-to-hand combatants, being a master swordsman and knowing his nerve pinches (something Gideon would have no defense against either).
I've also uncovered some information that suggests that Gideon isn't that powerful at all really. Not only do 90% of his appearances consist of him operating behind the scenes (and I've checked about 95% of them). List of appearances here. In that same threat you'll notice an interesting fact:
"I don't believe it was shown that he could duplicate Night Thrasher's armor. Dwayne took his armor off and kicked his butt without it, so we never got a chance to see. The next day he showed Gideon up in the business world as well, taking a merger away from him. So, yeah. I'd say that qualifies as him being a major enemy."
Now I no longer have my New Warriors issues, but I'd like to see if someone with the Night Trasher mini can verify this. Night Trasher is significantly weaker than Nightcrawler.
Either way, Gideon hasn't done anything all that impressive, besides his victory over the still rather inexperienced New Warriors. Getting beat by Night Trasher nicely offsets that though.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
He'll know the basic 8 level story thing.
- Count Nefaria isn't there now, but he was.
The Illuminati is actually a pretty far cry from Civil War. They first appeared in New Avengers #7, which is in July 2005, about a full year before this contest started. Beyond the follow-up one-shot that tied them a little into CW, they have had no real contact with that. So that doesn't really hold up. Xavier would make sure to have info about places such as the Raft in the X-Files for use.
- As I've noted, I seriously doubt Gideon will know much of anything about Nightcrawler.
- Nightcrawler will know to keep his distance till the right moment.
- It's a pretty well lit place, but not if Nightcrawler can take out the lights.
There's nothing in that biography that suggests such a thing. If you can back up your statement with issue numbers though, I'll gladly believe you.Again, I looked into him last round, and it seemed pretty evident his excelling at powers is pretty instant. (Maybe faster than Darkhawk's transformation.
Gideon had the mutant power to mimic other superhuman powers in his vicinity based on their genetic templates. He is known to have mastered the ability to absorb at least six powers at once and use all copied abilities simultaneously, often in ways the original owners had not yet considered. Gideon had access to genetic templates at his home and businesses, thus enabling him to mimic powers even when superpowered beings were not present. As an External, Gideon was virtually immortal, able to recover from nearly any injury.
I wouldn't put much faith in those power grids, as they've been notoriously wrong before. There's also nothing to compare them with, so they're pretty useless. Beyond that, his fighting skills have shown to be among the best of the X-Men, and his strength increases with the increase of his teleportation. Like I've said, he can knock out grown men with one punch, and rivals Rogue levels of strength when really firing up the teleportation.
You're exaggerating the sabbatical thing. That was really only a development during Claremont's second run for a while there, together with Austen's, but most of the time, he's been dedicated to the cause. A little prayer here and there, but otherwise he's out there with the X-Men, and often training. I'd also like to know what more could be done with those powers if they obviously haven't been shown to have that much more potential beside an increase in finesse.
1) Gideon doesn't get the chance.
2) I've stated a few times now that his strength increases with the teleportation. I also don't put much faith in the 2/7 mark.
"Constantly worrying"? C'mon Phaed. We both know that you're exaggerating the sabbatical thing here. Like I said, it's been sparingly, and really only made a comeuppance with Claremont's second run and the priesthood. After Austen that was quietly dropped again. The effect is also negilible.
Beside the fact that Nightcrawler has taken a few hits before, he also still has the edge of surprise. He's also not giving Gideon the chance to strike. Nightcrawler isn't adverse to a little hit-and-run tactic.
Even though Storm petitioned to Bush for the XSE to be instated. Beside that, it also gives a little more credence to the argument, since the Raft is also a UN-run facility (it's run by SHIELD, which is a UN organization). Countries outside of America have shown a greater willingness into working with mutants, and SHIELD hasn't had much trouble with it either.
Again, a bit of a stretch. The Brotherhood wouldn't keep files, and Gideon can't interact with anybody else. That makes him dependant on his own files. Ones that I severely doubt will have info on Nightcrawler, but even in extreme case they do, would have little to no info. Beyond the search for that missing External, there's no reason Gideon would be interested in some weird little European team that spent more time in alternate futures than they did on the mainland.
- Nightcrawler has a definitive prep-time advantage.
- Nightcrawler would know the safe distance away from Gideon.
- Nightcrawler is quite a bit powerful, as reading of comics would show. The power grid underestimates his powers. He regularly spars with Wolverine, and ranks among the top dogs of the X-Men hand-to-hand combatants, being a master swordsman and knowing his nerve pinches (something Gideon would have no defense against either).
I've also uncovered some information that suggests that Gideon isn't that powerful at all really. Not only do 90% of his appearances consist of him operating behind the scenes (and I've checked about 95% of them). List of appearances here. In that same threat you'll notice an interesting fact:
"I don't believe it was shown that he could duplicate Night Thrasher's armor. Dwayne took his armor off and kicked his butt without it, so we never got a chance to see. The next day he showed Gideon up in the business world as well, taking a merger away from him. So, yeah. I'd say that qualifies as him being a major enemy."
Now I no longer have my New Warriors issues, but I'd like to see if someone with the Night Trasher mini can verify this. Night Trasher is significantly weaker than Nightcrawler.
Either way, Gideon hasn't done anything all that impressive, besides his victory over the still rather inexperienced New Warriors. Getting beat by Night Trasher nicely offsets that though.
WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER
First off, sorry Primemover for taking a couple of days off to rebutt. I've been ridiculously busy as I'm i nthe middle of moving.
Rebuttal
Rebuttal
That's fine, althogh he still has to actually search out and find Hydro-man to attack him.
Of course he would be able to attack. The entire time he is flooding the Raft. He doesn't need to be anywhere near Templar for this to happen, and for this to work.
Yes it will be ab factor. Hydro-man in no way has to face Templar to even win. LIke i said, he will be tearing up the Raft and completely flooding it. He doesn't in any way have to actually be near Templar to do this, he just has to be somewhat close to water, which he will be at all times.
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