Contest of Marvels II Thread 4

[wiegeabo]

Her vs. Kurse

This rematch benefits Her far more than it does Kurse. Kurse's strategy isn't going to really change. All he'll really know that he didn't before are Her's powers. And that won't help him any. Her, on the other hand, now knows how strong and invulnerable Kurse is. And Her will be far more likely to take a different strategy this time. Her likes to prove she's stronger, yet now she knows she can't. But she can still prove she's smarter.

It's doubtful the helicarrier is going to survive this battle. But it's not going to fall out of the sky until enough damage is done. And Kurse isn't focused on damaging the helicarrier, but on getting his opponent. Her isn't going to worry about using or protecting the helicarrier because she going to be focused on pulling her opponent towards her.

Her is faster than Kurse, so she can stay ahead of him. And she's strong enough to burst through walls in a straight line. (There's no point in flying down corridors since Kurse will just break through walls and run straight at his target.)

Of course her is going to fire blasts at Kurse in the hopes that something effects him. It won't, but it will at least keep him a little busy or distracted, possibly even somewhat blinded if she blasts his face. In the mean time, Her will do everything to stay away from Kurse because she can't handle him hand-to-hand.

What will eventually happen is Her breaks through the outer hull of helicarrier. But as long as she stays within one mile of it, she stays in the fight. On the other hand, when Kurse runs after her, he'll fall to the ground. Now, the impact won't stop Kurse. But, once he falls a mile away, he'll ring out, giving the victory to Her. (Even if the helicarrier is just 10,000 feet up, it's a 2 mile fall for Kurse.)

The easier strategy for Her is to do what she did in the last round. She can control the gravity around Kurse, trapping him in the air. He'll have no way of freeing himself. Then she can blast him at full power. Again, this won't hurt Kurse, but it will send him flying away. And once Kurse is sent bursting through the outer hull, he'll fly into the air, and fall away in a ring out. Given what Her learned of Kurse in the last round, this would be the most likely (and happen to be the most effective) strategy.


Her wins

 

[wiegeabo]

Nick Fury vs. Diablo

Nick Fury is literally in his element in this battle. He doesn't even need the assistance of the helicarrier crew to fight this battle; just access to a computer.

And with his level of computer access, he can activate all the helicarrier's defenses. While they work on the intruder, namely Diablo, Nick can sit back and sift through any files about his opponent he wouldn't have access to during prep-time, looking for anything he may need to better fight.

Now, Diablo is very intelligent. And he carries a good supply of a variety of alchemical weapons. So there is a very good chance he can avoid many automated security systems. Even be able to fight helicarrier crew if they got involved. But there are so many things Nick can do with the ship. He could probably flood the decks with gas, hit Diablo with intense and disabling sonics, or just get his hands dirty.

And like Diablo, Nick has no problem killing when need be. If necessary, Nick can use explosives and injure or kill Diablo. If given the chance, he'd just use a sniper rifle while safely at the other end of a long corridor (which he could lead Diablo into using a number of methods).

Unfortunately for Diablo, he'll run out of alchemicals without getting to Fury, or be stopped one way...or the other.


Nick Fury wins

 

[wiegeabo]

Clea vs. Justice

Prep-time probably won't do much for either character. Justice may know some basics about Clea (like she was a disciple for Strange and probably know magic). Clea might be able to get basic information about Justice since he was publicly known as a New Warrior and Avenger. Location won't help either. Justice probably couldn't use the technology, and Clea likely wouldn't.

Justice has a lot of power. The problem is, Clea does as well. And while Justice could stop direct attacks like energy blasts, there's no need for Clea to use those. She could simply put Justice to sleep, or into a trance. Maybe even teleport him away.

Clea may start with more physical attacks. Blasts, throwing equipment or bringing the roof down on him. Justice can protect himself from those attacks, and retaliate with the same. But it would take little time for Clea to realize her strategy isn't getting anywhere and she'll use her magic in other ways, like those mentioned above. Clea could even do this from a safe location on the helicarrier, after teleporting herself from the bridge.

Justice is just outmatched in this fight.


Clea wins

 

[wiegeabo]

Kurse vs Her

I just want to add one thing given I did not refer to location. Kurse is obviously not a flier but crashing the helicarrier is absolutely not an issue and given the combattants that is likely. An excerp of his powers:

"Kurse is able to withstand the force of great impacts, falls from tremendous heights, temperature extremes, and powerful energy blasts without sustaining injury."

One this battle is on the plains of Oklahoma it is only a matter of time until Kurse takes Her out.

All Her has to do is get Kurse off the helicarrier while it's still in the air. The fall won't stop him, but getting a mile away from the craft will ring him out of the match.

And Her can do this by just removing the pull of gravity on Kurse, causing him to float. Then she hits him with a blast. It won't be enough to harm him, but it will be more than enough to accelerate away like a rocket engine and off the carrier.

Her wins

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Her vs. Kurse

This rematch benefits Her far more than it does Kurse. Kurse's strategy isn't going to really change. All he'll really know that he didn't before are Her's powers. And that won't help him any. Her, on the other hand, now knows how strong and invulnerable Kurse is. And Her will be far more likely to take a different strategy this time. Her likes to prove she's stronger, yet now she knows she can't. But she can still prove she's smarter.

It's doubtful the helicarrier is going to survive this battle. But it's not going to fall out of the sky until enough damage is done. And Kurse isn't focused on damaging the helicarrier, but on getting his opponent. Her isn't going to worry about using or protecting the helicarrier because she going to be focused on pulling her opponent towards her.

Her is faster than Kurse, so she can stay ahead of him. And she's strong enough to burst through walls in a straight line. (There's no point in flying down corridors since Kurse will just break through walls and run straight at his target.)

Of course her is going to fire blasts at Kurse in the hopes that something effects him. It won't, but it will at least keep him a little busy or distracted, possibly even somewhat blinded if she blasts his face. In the mean time, Her will do everything to stay away from Kurse because she can't handle him hand-to-hand.

What will eventually happen is Her breaks through the outer hull of helicarrier. But as long as she stays within one mile of it, she stays in the fight. On the other hand, when Kurse runs after her, he'll fall to the ground. Now, the impact won't stop Kurse. But, once he falls a mile away, he'll ring out, giving the victory to Her. (Even if the helicarrier is just 10,000 feet up, it's a 2 mile fall for Kurse.)

The easier strategy for Her is to do what she did in the last round. She can control the gravity around Kurse, trapping him in the air. He'll have no way of freeing himself. Then she can blast him at full power. Again, this won't hurt Kurse, but it will send him flying away. And once Kurse is sent bursting through the outer hull, he'll fly into the air, and fall away in a ring out. Given what Her learned of Kurse in the last round, this would be the most likely (and happen to be the most effective) strategy.

This whole strategy is based on a ring out by him falling off the Helicarrier while the helicarrier is still flying. This is one of the most improbable scenarios ever. One he is not an idiot eventhough when hatred takes him he has a one track mind.

Now Kurse will not just simply fall off the multi platform Helicarrier. Kurse will not fall off because he can hang on and if he has to will fly off.

Now the one thing you should note that given he knows Her can fly he would like to take this match to the ground so it is very likely that he will take the helicarrier down.

With regard her control of gravity, what control?

This is her list of powers in Wiki:

Flight
Unaided survival in vacuum
Energy Blasts
Regeneration
Superstrength and Durability

Where did you take it that she could control the gravity of others. Nothing in my knowledge allows me to believe that so if you want to use that strategy please explain from what source do you assume that she has that power. It is certainly not a strategy either she did or Warlock did when they fought the Hulk.

Therefore, I would suggest that strategy is completely invalid. She cannot just hold people in a bubble, at least I have never seen her do that.

In any case, the blasts would not cause him to move much as you say yourself, he is invulnerable to her attacks.

Kurse could rip her apart as soon as he gets a hold of her and eventually he will. His strikes put down Thor and Beta Ray Bill and eventually Her will come close enough for Kurse to hurt Her and in case she will be dodging enourmous projectiles of several tons each which Kurse will be hurtling at her.

One thing to note is that Kurse has superhuman speed as well. He is on par with ASgardians as a dark elf and as such Her is not that much faster then him.

Winner - Kurse

 

[Ahura Mazda]

All Her has to do is get Kurse off the helicarrier while it's still in the air. The fall won't stop him, but getting a mile away from the craft will ring him out of the match.

And Her can do this by just removing the pull of gravity on Kurse, causing him to float. Then she hits him with a blast. It won't be enough to harm him, but it will be more than enough to accelerate away like a rocket engine and off the carrier.

I understand that is her tactic but Kurse's will be hurtling several ton objects at her at great speed plus he may just bring the helicarrier down just to stay out of the air.

Winner - Kurse

 

[wiegeabo]

I'm going to reply to your rebuttle a little out of order so my response makes more sense.

With regard her control of gravity, what control?

This is her list of powers in Wiki:

Flight
Unaided survival in vacuum
Energy Blasts
Regeneration
Superstrength and Durability

Where did you take it that she could control the gravity of others. Nothing in my knowledge allows me to believe that so if you want to use that strategy please explain from what source do you assume that she has that power. It is certainly not a strategy either she did or Warlock did when they fought the Hulk.

Therefore, I would suggest that strategy is completely invalid. She cannot just hold people in a bubble, at least I have never seen her do that.

Her manipulates gravity all the time. It's actually how she flies. As can be seen in her MarvelDatabase bio:
She can also use cosmic energy to interact with gravitons (particles of gravitational attraction) to enable her to fly.

Since this is how she flies, she has plenty of experience manipulating gravity. And since she can do it to herself, she can do it others, especially since it's just a manipulation of gravitons through her use of cosmic energy. Her can hit Kurse with a blast that does nothing but negate the effect of gravity around him.

This whole strategy is based on a ring out by him falling off the Helicarrier while the helicarrier is still flying. This is one of the most improbable scenarios ever. One he is not an idiot eventhough when hatred takes him he has a one track mind.

Now Kurse will not just simply fall off the multi platform Helicarrier. Kurse will not fall off because he can hang on and if he has to will fly off.

In any case, the blasts would not cause him to move much as you say yourself, he is invulnerable to her attacks.

Kurse won't really have a choice in the matter. The characters start the match facing off against each other on the bridge. Her has had all of the second prep-time to consider what to do. She knows that a hand-to-hand battle isn't going to work. And that her energy blasts don't seem to have much effect. It's time to try alternate strategies, and this one turns out to be the easiest to implement.

So, when the battle starts, Her changes the gravity around Kurse, making him weightless. And if you've ever seen astronauts in space, they just float there, unable to move unless they can push off of something. The same thing will happen to Kurse. Then all her has to do is hit him with a blast. It won't hurt Kurse, but it will give him one hell of a push. More than enough to blast him through the walls and out into the open air. Hellicarriers have flown after taking much more damage than that, so the ring out is a valid option.

Kurse could rip her apart as soon as he gets a hold of her and eventually he will. His strikes put down Thor and Beta Ray Bill and eventually Her will come close enough for Kurse to hurt Her and in case she will be dodging enourmous projectiles of several tons each which Kurse will be hurtling at her.

One thing to note is that Kurse has superhuman speed as well. He is on par with ASgardians as a dark elf and as such Her is not that much faster then him.

Let's say, for some reason, Her doesn't use the above strategy and Kurse comes after her. All she has to do is fly straight up and out of the helicarrier. As long as she stays within a mile of it, the fight continues. And she's safely out of Kurse's grasp.

Which leads into your next point...

Now the one thing you should note that given he knows Her can fly he would like to take this match to the ground so it is very likely that he will take the helicarrier down.

If the battle gets this far, Kurse certainly has the power to do that. And Her would have to follow the wreckage to the ground. But once there, she can still float nearly a mile above it, safely out of the hands of Kurse (because she knows to stay away from him).

And what is Kurse going to do at this point. Throw stuff at her? She'll just move out of the way or vaporize it. And, eventually, Kurse will run out of things to throw. Will Kurse try to jump and grab her. If he can jump that high, again she can just move out of the way. And Kurse risks jumping too high, or landing too far away, and ringing out of the match.

All the while, Her can pound Kurse with blasts. They may not do anything, but it will be the only effective attack happening in the battle. And since Her is the only one landing attacks, and Kurse can't really do anything, Her should win by default.

This location just turned out to be a bad draw for Kurse. Combine that with Her learning everything she needs to know about Kurse in the last battle, and adjusting her strategies accordingly, and Kurse is going to find himself with little he can do.


Her wins

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I'm going to reply to your rebuttle a little out of order so my response makes more sense.

Her manipulates gravity all the time. It's actually how she flies. As can be seen in her MarvelDatabase bio:
She can also use cosmic energy to interact with gravitons (particles of gravitational attraction) to enable her to fly.

Since this is how she flies, she has plenty of experience manipulating gravity. And since she can do it to herself, she can do it others, especially since it's just a manipulation of gravitons through her use of cosmic energy. Her can hit Kurse with a blast that does nothing but negate the effect of gravity around him.

First off even though she manipulates gravity so she can fly does not mean she can manipulate other people's gravities. I refer back to other battles in her past and notably one aginst the Hulk and I know she did not affect the gravity of anything. Yes that is her method of flight but it does not mean she controls the gravity of objects and such. She simply does not and you are inferring a power she does not have. ANd if you think she does, show an example of that power...

Kurse won't really have a choice in the matter. The characters start the match facing off against each other on the bridge. Her has had all of the second prep-time to consider what to do. She knows that a hand-to-hand battle isn't going to work. And that her energy blasts don't seem to have much effect. It's time to try alternate strategies, and this one turns out to be the easiest to implement.

So, when the battle starts, Her changes the gravity around Kurse, making him weightless. And if you've ever seen astronauts in space, they just float there, unable to move unless they can push off of something. The same thing will happen to Kurse. Then all her has to do is hit him with a blast. It won't hurt Kurse, but it will give him one hell of a push. More than enough to blast him through the walls and out into the open air. Hellicarriers have flown after taking much more damage than that, so the ring out is a valid option.

One thing I would like to state if Her had engaged Kurse in physical combat she would have been soundly defeated. Yet she ended up fighting to a draw meaning it was likely she did not fight him head on. A tactic she could decide to use.

Second, as I mentionned earlier you cannot create powers that she does not have or at least powers I have never seen her use. I have never seen Her cause other objects to become weightless and therefore her method of flight is only good for her flying. Just note that Warlock has the same power as Her and he could only affect the gravity beneath him allowing him to fly. Nothing more.

Let's say, for some reason, Her doesn't use the above strategy and Kurse comes after her. All she has to do is fly straight up and out of the helicarrier. As long as she stays within a mile of it, the fight continues. And she's safely out of Kurse's grasp.

Which leads into your next point...

If the battle gets this far, Kurse certainly has the power to do that. And Her would have to follow the wreckage to the ground. But once there, she can still float nearly a mile above it, safely out of the hands of Kurse (because she knows to stay away from him).

Her does not have endless endurance which Kurse does. And I again not she was never one to take the safe option. She has always been headstrong and again I would like to state is how she would note that given her strategy last week was to stay out of range which is why she got the votes because if she tested his strength she would have been soundly defeated. Yet she continues the battle and as such could try to fight him head on as she does most of the time with everyone else even when she is outmatched.

And if the fight is on the ground, he can throw peices of the ship at her and eventually she may get hit because she will tire allot faster then he will. By the way, regarding a ring out, if she is at the limit and is dodging several ton projectiles she could pass the limit unaware to avoid an object which would mean she would be the one to ring out.

And what is Kurse going to do at this point. Throw stuff at her? She'll just move out of the way or vaporize it. And, eventually, Kurse will run out of things to throw. Will Kurse try to jump and grab her. If he can jump that high, again she can just move out of the way. And Kurse risks jumping too high, or landing too far away, and ringing out of the match.

All the while, Her can pound Kurse with blasts. They may not do anything, but it will be the only effective attack happening in the battle. And since Her is the only one landing attacks, and Kurse can't really do anything, Her should win by default.

This location just turned out to be a bad draw for Kurse. Combine that with Her learning everything she needs to know about Kurse in the last battle, and adjusting her strategies accordingly, and Kurse is going to find himself with little he can do.

Kurse has limitless endurance and as such Her will tire out before he will. And even if she lands attacks for days and never gets hit by any projectiles, she will tire at one point before he will and eventually she will get hit. Kurse has defeated some of the most powerful beings of Marvel. He would not get defeated by Her who even may decide he could be her mate as Kurse is more then her match.


Kurse wins

 

[Midnight Ice]

Diablo VS. Nick Fury

Wow, if the location has ever helped before, it couldn't have been as great as an advantage Nick has in this battle.

Even though fury has the home court advantage, Diablo is a genious and will find a way to reach him, even finding a wayy to teleport to him. Diablo has fought the Fantastic Four at once, Fury should not be a problem.

Winner: Diablo

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Her vs. Kurse

I would just like to add one thing with regard Her's alleged gravity powers, based on that "she can also use cosmic energy to interact with gravitons (particles of gravitational attraction) to enable her to fly."

Here is a description of Gladiator's flight powers:
Flight: Gladiator is able to generate gravitons that enable him to fly. Gladiator's speed rivals those of the fastest known starships, and can achieve faster than light speeds in hyperspace.

Obviously, the use of gravitons and interaction with gravity is Marvel's explanation for flight and has nothing to do with gravity powers such as others in this competition have.

Winner - Kurse

 

[JewishHobbit]

REBUTTAL: Thor vs Cyclops

Although I will admit it's not one of Thor's more spotlighted features, he's also quite the tactical leader. He has about 1000 years of experience of thinking outside of the box over Cyclops, so I don't think that's as great an edge as might be portrayed here.

Oh I know that he's a leader, but he's not really been shown as a tactical leader. Heck... he picked up the reigns during Ragnarok and lead all of Asguard against Loki and his people.... Asguard died. Way to go Thor! Cyclops' main trait his is leadership... whereas Thor's main thing is his power. Though Thor has his experience, Cyclops has enough to do his thing I think.

I could picture all of this if he were Beast or Shadowcat. One of the key rules of this competition is that characters can't use any resources that they haven't been shown using. Besides one or two panels, Cyclops has pretty much never operated any of this tech in the 40 years it's been there. I'd really like to see examples of him being A) able to get some sort of password-overriding virus, B) use it, C) that it even exists.

As I said... this isn't really horribly important.. it's just mind games and things to try to weaken Thor. Cyclops is just setting the stage for the attack. Even if he can't find a way to use the Helecarrier to his advantage, he could still just blast out of it and crash it. The computers was just an idea that popped in my head. My main challenge here to the voters is to simply decide for yourself if Cyclops could find a way to wear Thor down. None of us are Cyclops and would know how he'd do it... as he has better skills than us in that department. But if you believe that he could find a way, then so be it. If not, then move on to the crash and fight. As for proof... I got nothin'. He's been around tech from X-Factor's Ship, to the Shi'ar powered Danger Room, to the Black Bird (which he can fly, which is tech ). It's a whim idea, but I think he's been around enough to figure something out. If not... refer to earlier statement.

Cyclops isn't going to just crash the Helicarrier, and it's doubtful it would be piloted by just one or even two men. I'm pretty sure it has a bridge similar to something like the Enterprise from Star Trek. Cycke isn't going to be able to barge in, make threats, and take over control just like that. Also, it would be highly dangerous to do the "blasting to evade falling to death thing", as the distance is far greater to overcome than any that he has in the past.

You missed the whole explanation thing regarding the "Not just two men". Need to read that. Otherwise... why wouldn't Cyclops threaten and drop the ship? He's in a fight with freakin' Thor... and he knows he's in a fight with freakin' Thor. People would have said years ago that Cyclops wouldn't have taken down a Genoshan Army ruthlessly (Eve of Destruction), or that he'd break a student's leg in a fight effortlessly when other options were available (Riot At Xaviers), or that he'd have an affair on Jean with one of their oldest foes (Morrison's Run), or that he'd shoot "Emma Frost" down with a hand gun (Torn).... but he did.

Since Apocalypse took him over he's been more willing to do what it takes or more to get the job done... and he's more willing to do things and make decisions that aren't very "Cyclopsy" in the traditional sense. If he's going against Thor one-on-one... I can see him going over the top more than enough to get the job done. What's he going to do, shoot Thor with a hand gun? No, he's going to drop the whole Helicarrier on him.

Besides, this is contingent on the idea that Thor would even let the Helicarrier crash. Lest we forget, he's got the strength and the elemental control to keep that puppy in the air.

Note the point I made that Cyclops would do this while Thor was in the center of the Helicarrier, or at least somewhere away from the edges where he can just break out. Cyclops is smart enough to plan for that and find a way to get him there.

Cycke is more likely to get hurt from this than Thor, seeing as Cycke can't leap THAT far away to stay out of the way of the crashing Helicarrier. It hurts him more than it ever hurts Thor and it's a strategy that I severely doubt Cycke would try.

It's not like the Helicarrier is falling straight down and Cyke is jumping away from it. It's moving (as it does commonly), and if Cyke jumps.. he falls down.. and the momentum of the Helicarrier carries it farther away. It's like people who eject from a falling plane. They float down and the plane crashes furthera way. And heck, he could even find a jet pack and figure out how to use it since those things are everywhere where shield are. If the crew can use them, he can use them. They are available resources on location after all. That also solves the whole floating down with Optic Blast weakening him thing.

I cut some stuff out there to preserve space, but this strategy isn't really feasible. First off, Thor's hammer can be returned to him from anywhere, at any time. He'll have it back before Cycke can even pull out his attack. Cyclops' full powered blast (and he's going to be very worn down here considering he had to save himself using his optic blast from an incredible height) couldn't even take down Wolverine as Death. I severely doubt a severely weakened Cyclops (saving himself from that height would require A LOT of energy). It's just not happening.

I didn't say Thor's Hammer would be away, I said he'd have a hole in his hand, making him drop it and Cyclops would then lay it on thick. I know the Hammer would return, but if Cyke can't take him out then, he can find another way to try and disarm him, whether it be another ricochet hole in the hand, dodging the Hammer between attacks, etc. etc. etc. He's a strategic genious... he can figure out how to dodge a Hammer or disarm a foe. I also like the idea of him finding a way to expect the Hammer to come back and get Thor in positions where the Hammer could plow through debri, and then Cyke blast that debri into Thor before his Hammer can get to him... or just blast it into him anyhow. Basically, Cyke using his suroundings and Thor's own momentum and advantages against him. That's what a strategic genious does... they study their foe and use whatever they can... even things most people wouldn't think to use. And also, you sevierly underestimate Cyclops' speed. He's able to go at the speed of sight. As soon as Thor's hand is hit, he looks at Thor and bam the dude's hit. He can poor it one as powerful and quickly as he can see Thor. Thor's not just going to fly up and away, as he hasn't got his hammer to hurl, but as soon as the Hammer returns, Cyke can change his tactic to something else planned and find another method to hurt the Thunder God. If the force of an army of Ultrons can hurt Thor, Cyke's fullpowered blasts will definately due it's thing.

And if his "Full Power" couldn't take down Wolvie, I highly doubt it was his full power, or it was just plain bad writing. His "Full Power" took out Apocalypse in the Wrath of Apocalypse storyline and it's even been said that he's never unleashed it. I know it's not usable, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but the only time it's every been said to be fully unleashed was in Civil War: X-Men when he was forced to, and it overcharged Bishop even more than Onslaught did extremely quickly (note: this is only included as to prove that other "Full" attacks were never trully full attacks... just the full amount he was willing to lay on at the time). If he's going against Thor... a God.... I think it's more of a possibility that he'll go all out against him... or as much as it'll take. My guess is that he was subconsciously holding back against Wolverine, as they are friends. Can't prove it, but it's just my thinking. He did that a lot back then (pre-Apocalypse).

And Thor has the 1000 year experience of a warrior. He's no stranger to any of this. Heck, he's trained with the Avengers as well. It's not just Cyclops countering Thor, but it's the other way around as well. Cyclops is an adept martial artist, but no match for Thor.

Thor has an experience edge, yes, but Cyke has enough to make due just fine. He's been learning to fight all his life.... and I still think the training issue stands. He's trained with/against others that combined match up to Thor, I think those training sessions are enough to prepare him a little bit. Not to mention that I'm sure he'll be in the danger room for hours and hours prior to the match preparing and going over scenerios against Thor and others with his power set, trying to find the best scenerio to win (eventually comign to the falling helecarrier idea... realizing that mediocre won't due).

I'm sorry, but no, Cycke can't pull this off.

WINNER=THOR

Ye of little Faith...

Winner - Cyclops

 

[Harlekin]

Oh I know that he's a leader, but he's not really been shown as a tactical leader. Heck... he picked up the reigns during Ragnarok and lead all of Asguard against Loki and his people.... Asguard died. Way to go Thor! Cyclops' main trait his is leadership... whereas Thor's main thing is his power. Though Thor has his experience, Cyclops has enough to do his thing I think.

- Considering he's lead armies in the past succesfully, I would say he's a pretty good tactical leader.
- The Ragnarok was predestined. The outcome of that battle could not have been anything else.
- I respectfully disagree.

As I said... this isn't really horribly important.. it's just mind games and things to try to weaken Thor. Cyclops is just setting the stage for the attack. Even if he can't find a way to use the Helecarrier to his advantage, he could still just blast out of it and crash it. The computers was just an idea that popped in my head. My main challenge here to the voters is to simply decide for yourself if Cyclops could find a way to wear Thor down. None of us are Cyclops and would know how he'd do it... as he has better skills than us in that department. But if you believe that he could find a way, then so be it. If not, then move on to the crash and fight. As for proof... I got nothin'. He's been around tech from X-Factor's Ship, to the Shi'ar powered Danger Room, to the Black Bird (which he can fly, which is tech ). It's a whim idea, but I think he's been around enough to figure something out. If not... refer to earlier statement.

- Mind games that'll be ineffective.
- Isn't that the whole point of the competition? You trying to put yourself in your character's place and show how he can beat someone else. Just saying 'he can, I don't know, but he can' doesn't cut it for me.
- X-Factor's Ship is gone, the Danger Room isn't exactly portable, and I doubt he could take the Blackbird with him. There's just no technology that he'll be able to bring along that will help him here.

You missed the whole explanation thing regarding the "Not just two men". Need to read that. Otherwise... why wouldn't Cyclops threaten and drop the ship? He's in a fight with freakin' Thor... and he knows he's in a fight with freakin' Thor. People would have said years ago that Cyclops wouldn't have taken down a Genoshan Army ruthlessly (Eve of Destruction), or that he'd break a student's leg in a fight effortlessly when other options were available (Riot At Xaviers), or that he'd have an affair on Jean with one of their oldest foes (Morrison's Run), or that he'd shoot "Emma Frost" down with a hand gun (Torn).... but he did.

- I read the explanation. He's not going to be able to threaten an entire bridge, and if he wants to be succesful, he needs to knock them unconscious, killing them when the carrier crashes. Cyclops has done some questionable stuff in the last few years, but he's not a murderer.

Since Apocalypse took him over he's been more willing to do what it takes or more to get the job done... and he's more willing to do things and make decisions that aren't very "Cyclopsy" in the traditional sense. If he's going against Thor one-on-one... I can see him going over the top more than enough to get the job done. What's he going to do, shoot Thor with a hand gun? No, he's going to drop the whole Helicarrier on him.

Threatening a multitude of lives, and his own. He has no purpose here to justify it with. All he knows is that he's fighting Thor and he needs to beat him. If the incentive "or the world dies" were there or something like it, then yes, I would totally support this argument, but there's nothing in the scenario to suggest Cyclops will sacrifice innocent lives to win this.

Note the point I made that Cyclops would do this while Thor was in the center of the Helicarrier, or at least somewhere away from the edges where he can just break out. Cyclops is smart enough to plan for that and find a way to get him there.

Heck, Thor can teleport using his hammer, so that doesn't really apply either way. There's a million ways for him to avoid this.

It's not like the Helicarrier is falling straight down and Cyke is jumping away from it. It's moving (as it does commonly), and if Cyke jumps.. he falls down.. and the momentum of the Helicarrier carries it farther away. It's like people who eject from a falling plane. They float down and the plane crashes furthera way.

That's not really how it works. The Helicarrier will be crashing in a diagonal manner, not just straight dropping from the ground. Cyclops will be jumping out at the front, where the wind pressure will force him back against the Helicarrier (hurting him immensely by the way), and making sure he's there when the whole thing friggin' explodes.

And heck, he could even find a jet pack and figure out how to use it since those things are everywhere where shield are. If the crew can use them, he can use them. They are available resources on location after all. That also solves the whole floating down with Optic Blast weakening him thing.

He'd have to get a jetpack, thereby insuring that at least one other person on the ship dies, together with a multitude of other people he's sentenced to their deaths. Yeah, it's just not happening.

I didn't say Thor's Hammer would be away, I said he'd have a hole in his hand, making him drop it and Cyclops would then lay it on thick. I know the Hammer would return, but if Cyke can't take him out then, he can find another way to try and disarm him, whether it be another ricochet hole in the hand, dodging the Hammer between attacks, etc. etc. etc.

You seem to think that all Thor is capable of with the hammer is throwing it. I really suggest you read up on him. The moment Thor's hammer is back in his hand, it's not leaving, and Cyclops' attack will meet an equal if not superior force.

He's a strategic genious... he can figure out how to dodge a Hammer or disarm a foe. I also like the idea of him finding a way to expect the Hammer to come back and get Thor in positions where the Hammer could plow through debri, and then Cyke blast that debri into Thor before his Hammer can get to him... or just blast it into him anyhow.

You also seem to think that the hammer (if Thor's going to throw it anyway) won't be travelling at great speeds. You don't dodge that hammer unless you've got superspeed, and Cycke's not going to able to pour it on if he isn't up close. This strategy just is not viable.

Basically, Cyke using his suroundings and Thor's own momentum and advantages against him. That's what a strategic genious does... they study their foe and use whatever they can... even things most people wouldn't think to use. And also, you sevierly underestimate Cyclops' speed. He's able to go at the speed of sight. As soon as Thor's hand is hit, he looks at Thor and bam the dude's hit. He can poor it one as powerful and quickly as he can see Thor. Thor's not just going to fly up and away, as he hasn't got his hammer to hurl, but as soon as the Hammer returns, Cyke can change his tactic to something else planned and find another method to hurt the Thunder God. If the force of an army of Ultrons can hurt Thor, Cyke's fullpowered blasts will definately due it's thing.

And did you know how long it took that Ultron army to hurt Thor? They were fighting for a couple of hours there. Not only can't Cycke keep that kind of barrage up, Thor's hammer isn't just to be thrown around. If you'll read up here, that'd be dandy.

And if his "Full Power" couldn't take down Wolvie, I highly doubt it was his full power, or it was just plain bad writing. His "Full Power" took out Apocalypse in the Wrath of Apocalypse storyline and it's even been said that he's never unleashed it. I know it's not usable, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but the only time it's every been said to be fully unleashed was in Civil War: X-Men when he was forced to, and it overcharged Bishop even more than Onslaught did extremely quickly (note: this is only included as to prove that other "Full" attacks were never trully full attacks... just the full amount he was willing to lay on at the time). If he's going against Thor... a God.... I think it's more of a possibility that he'll go all out against him... or as much as it'll take. My guess is that he was subconsciously holding back against Wolverine, as they are friends. Can't prove it, but it's just my thinking. He did that a lot back then (pre-Apocalypse).

He didn't know Death was Wolverine, and Death had just murdered a bunch of people. He wasn't holding back, and he couldn't bring him down. It's canon. He's not going to hurt Thor with his full powered blast (which I also doubt he can hold long enough for it to matter).

Look, I have no doubt that Cyclops will do everything within his morals (so no sacrificing innocent people by crashing a Helicarrier) and power to beat Thor here, but it just won't be enough. I know what Cycke can do, and I love him, but he hasn't got the chops to beat Thor.

WINNER=THOR

 

[hippy fascist]

Storm Vs. Paibok

Could be a tough match here but I think the location’s going to go in my favour.

Paibok has storm’s powers plus those of colossus and iceman, plus hypnosis, plus flight…

However his most important power here will be his ability to shapechange.

The location states that while shield operatives won’t get involved in the fight they will be there. So at the start of the fight Paibok will simply transform his physical appearance to that of a shield agent. Storm has no psychic abilities so will never be able to spot him amongst the real agents and can’t risk taking out innocent civilians as she is a “good person”.

All paibok has to do is wait for storm to walk past and either hypnotize her or fire off a severe energy blast to her back as she walks past him.

Not only will this strategy allow him to sneak up and kill her, it will also give Paibok access to various areas of the helicarrier. He’s skilled with tech and could easily start screwing with the controls/breaking vital parts to bring the helicarrier down. Storm will feel the need to protect the shield agenst and go everything in her power to do so, at which point she’s wide open to a killer blow. Something paibok is more than willing to do.

So in short she’ll be attacked from all sides by a shape shifter with no regard for human life.

As a final point I’d like to mention that while storm is used to having a team backing her up, paibok (as a fantastic four villain) on the other hand is used to fighting against teams SOLO

Storm is simply outclassed here, shame to see her go so early

WINNER: PAIBOK!

 

[wiegeabo]

Her vs. Kurse

I would just like to add one thing with regard Her's alleged gravity powers, based on that "she can also use cosmic energy to interact with gravitons (particles of gravitational attraction) to enable her to fly."

Here is a description of Gladiator's flight powers:
Flight: Gladiator is able to generate gravitons that enable him to fly. Gladiator's speed rivals those of the fastest known starships, and can achieve faster than light speeds in hyperspace.

Obviously, the use of gravitons and interaction with gravity is Marvel's explanation for flight and has nothing to do with gravity powers such as others in this competition have.

The difference is that Gladiator generates gravitons. Her manipulates those already there using cosmic energy. I don't see why manipulating the gravitons around something else using the same cosmic energy would be so different.

And even if there isn't an example of her doing this, we're always coming up with ideas using people's powers in ways they may not have done before.

But, if the floating Kurse strategy doesn't fly, there's an even simpler method to remove Kurse. Her flies up to get a better shot, then slams him with everything she got in a blast. It may not hurt Kurse, but it would vaporize the floor he's standing. And then the floor below that. And the one below that. Until there are no more floors and Kurse falls to the ground far below.

Basically, Her would carve out a tunnel beneath Kurse that he would fall through. And there would be nothing around Kurse for him to stop his fall because it would be destroyed.

The best part about this is that it isn't speculation. Her has the power to do that. It fits in with her personality, going full out in an attack. Her doesn't even need to know anything about the helicarrier. She's just trying to hurt Kurse and his falling just happens to be the conclusion of her attack. And helicarriers have sustained a great deal of damage while being able to stay in the air. It only has to survive for a short while for Kurse to ring-out.


Her wins

 

[wiegeabo]

Diablo VS. Nick Fury

Wow, if the location has ever helped before, it couldn't have been as great as an advantage Nick has in this battle.

Even though fury has the home court advantage, Diablo is a genious and will find a way to reach him, even finding a wayy to teleport to him. Diablo has fought the Fantastic Four at once, Fury should not be a problem.

No doubt that Diablo is genius. But Fury is a tactical and strategic genius with decades of experience. And he's in his element.

Before the match even starts, Fury will have worked out exactly what he's going to do. And, from his safe house, he'll bring along any equipment he'll need to protect himself and weapons that he can use to end the fight as soon as it begins. Diablo is just going to be overwhelmed in this match.


Nick Fury wins

 

[Ahura Mazda]

The difference is that Gladiator generates gravitons. Her manipulates those already there using cosmic energy. I don't see why manipulating the gravitons around something else using the same cosmic energy would be so different.

And even if there isn't an example of her doing this, we're always coming up with ideas using people's powers in ways they may not have done before.

I honestly do not think it is a power she is meant to have and just an explanation that she can fly which is why there no mention of her controlling gravity anywhere outside of enabling herself to fly.

But, if the floating Kurse strategy doesn't fly, there's an even simpler method to remove Kurse. Her flies up to get a better shot, then slams him with everything she got in a blast. It may not hurt Kurse, but it would vaporize the floor he's standing. And then the floor below that. And the one below that. Until there are no more floors and Kurse falls to the ground far below.

Basically, Her would carve out a tunnel beneath Kurse that he would fall through. And there would be nothing around Kurse for him to stop his fall because it would be destroyed.

The best part about this is that it isn't speculation. Her has the power to do that. It fits in with her personality, going full out in an attack. Her doesn't even need to know anything about the helicarrier. She's just trying to hurt Kurse and his falling just happens to be the conclusion of her attack. And helicarriers have sustained a great deal of damage while being able to stay in the air. It only has to survive for a short while for Kurse to ring-out.

There are two main issues with that strategy.

1. Kurse can move out of the blast and he can grab hold of things, plus he will be hurtling objects at her and even if she can avoid them she will still not be able to concentrate and building a tunnel around Kurse.

2. The Helicarrier has survived damage but to stay afloat with enormous holes in it is unlikely. It goes down and as it goes down so does Her's strategy of getting a ring out win.

Kurse wins

 

[hippy fascist]

Storm Vs Paibok

Okay, at first while reading Paibok's bio, I thought I was screwed as Paibok has the powers of not only Storm, but Colossus and Iceman as well. I thought "How can Storm defeat someone whose her plus two of the other greatest X-Men made... plus Hypnosis and Shapechanging?"

Agree

Here's the thing though... the more I think about it the more I think Storm has an excellent chance of winning this match. I have several reasons, but I'll get into that shortly.

disagree

First, I will stay that location doesn't really aid either character, though it does give a bit more familiority to Storm being on Earth. Paibok's been there, but as seen in the Drax mini, he hates it there and is uncomfortable. He'd rather leave than fight Earth's heroes.

The location doesn't but all those shield personal certainly will Paibok's got better cover than a chameleon with all those people to doppelganger.

As far as knowing one another.... I don't know that Storm would know Paibok. I know they've never met up, but I don't know how public he got during his days against the Fantastic Four. However, without knowing him, Storm sees his picture and knows his name is Paibok the Power Skrull. I think she's smart enough to realize that he's a skrull with the shape changing powers (which she's very familiar with, as she's fought them during the Twelve storyline). The "Power Skrull" part may tip her off at there being more to him, like the Super Skrull, and I'm pretty sure she'd know who he is... thus, I think she can figure out he's an above average Skrull... though I doubt she'd know about his other powers. If she does know Super Skrull then she may study him and learn about his powers. It won't help much, though she will have the Hypnosis thing in the back of her head. However, this is all speculation.

Massive specualtion. Preping for the super skrull will not prep your for paibok, they have vastly different powersets.

also, having fought skrulls before will not help with his shape-shifting

It's not like they change apart from a small green antenae that sticks out of their foreheads. She won't be able to spot him.

As for Paibok knowing Storm... possible, but again, I didn't read many of the Fantastic Four issues with him. I don't know if he knew about Storm when given his powers, or if some skrull geneticist studied her and just gave them to him without him knowing who she was. I'm just going to assume he can put two and two together about her name and get an idea as well.

Storm does kinda give it away.

Now... as to why I believe Storm has a good chance with this battle:

1) I have few Fantastic Four issues with him in it (371-374) and in it he battles the Human Torch alongside two others, and all he does is shoot a bolt of lightening and shape change. He never once uses Storm's powers in the Drax mini, nor Iceman's or Colossus'. So while I don't doubt he's a powerful warrior, he doesn't seem to be one to just go all out in a fight and utilize every power he has. In fact, many bios and issue reviews I've read just mentions him shooting lightning bolts and ice blasts from his hands, and that's about it. I think he can fly two if I'm not mistaken... but that's it. I didn't even see anything about him turning to steel. Not saying he can't but apparently it doesn't happen often enough for it to be mentioned.

for this see the drax mini. He's changed a lot over the years and it's only recently he's started to come into his own in terms of power usage.

From what I read, it's more in character for him to try and outsmart his opponant than fight on physical brute strength. However, Storm is very smart and would not fall for some of Paibok's tactics. There's no one around for Paibok to manipulate (as he likes to do... Lyja in the FF issues and Lunatik and the Blood Brothers in Drax), so what Paibok seems to do best, he can't do here.

this backs up the statement in my opening argument. He'll lie in wait as a shield operative then pounce when the time is right, using his full power.

2) Even IF Paibok came in full power.... he has powers of 3 X-Men, including Storm herself. What has Storm been training with and against her whole life? The X-Men! She's trained and knows Colossus' powers like the back of her hand, as well as Iceman's. She knows how they work and how to work around them and how to use them against them. I'd wager to even say that she knows them better than Paibok! As for his having her powers.... she has 100% control and experience with her powers and uses them to an extent that's frightening. Paibok may have her powers, but she'd better understand them as she knows better than Paibok how "Mother Nature" works. He may try to create lightening (or possibly gusts of winds and such if he can do that) but she would know how to turn those against him, amplify them, and add hail to go along with it... maybe even a tornado. She knows her powers, and she'd know how to counter them if they were thrown back at her.

Paibok has faced the best the skrull army has to offer as well as the fantastic four SOLO.

Storm on the other hand is used to being leader of a team. She's not a typically solo character so she's going to be at a disadvantage from the off.

finally learning how to take out colossus/iceman/herself is all well and good, but all three at the same time? just not buying it.

Point is... Storm's trained against the X-Men most of her life and knows them well. Upon realizing that those are the power sets that paibok has, she'll simply think back on training sessions and know how to play the battle. She's one of the x-men's top strategic warriors. Trust me, she'll make it work!

Winner - Storm

Not without her team behind her

WINNER: PAIBOK!

 

[Phaedrus45]

Debating is over!

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Thor

*Nick Fury - (Not a more ideal location since Reed got his match in the Baxter Building. Diablo didn't stand a chance.)

*Paibok

*Clea

*Her - (oops, I forgot to do this one...Second time should be the charm for Her. She knows Kurse can't hurt her if she stays airborne. There is no chance she'll get in close, now.)

 

[kytrigger]

Thor
Clea
Paibok
Fury- talk about getting screwed with location. Midnight Ice got Zokened.

 

[kytrigger]

Forgot one:

Kurse- the strategy of Kurse just falling out of the helicarrier seems farfetched, and I think it would be immensly tough to blast him out of it do to his size and strength.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Cyclops
Storm
Clea
Fury - Wow, the location is the only thing that won Fury this match!
Kurse

 

[wiegeabo]

Thor
Nick Fury
Paibok the Power Skrull (good debate by JH though)
Clea
Her

 

[Harlekin]

Thor
Nick Fury - Like I said, location really helps Wieg here.
Paibok - He's got the power, versatility and the ability to sneak.
Justice
Her - Second battle is her advantage. She won't be as hotheaded. I doubt the truth of the manipulating gravity thing, though.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Thor - he will be extremely tough to beat
Nick Fury - A human with no powers this far in the competition, who would have thought
Paibok the Power Skrull
Clea
Kurse