Contest Of Marvels (Season 3) - Thread 4

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 7

Match 1:

Anole (HELLSTORMER) link

vs.

Fat Cobra (JEWISHHOBBIT) link

Match 2:

Mastermind (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link

vs.

Lockdown (MIDNIGHTICE) link

 

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Justice-John Roger Tensen (PHAEDRUS45) link

vs.

Bride Of Nine Spiders (HARLEKIN) link

Match 2:

Human Torch (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link

vs.

Medusa (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link​

​

 

[Phaedrus45]

Location: Avengers Mansion (Before Decimation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Mansion

Nobody will be in the mansion, besides the combatants. Remember, while you do have 24 hour prep time, that prep time does not allow you to place anything within the location before the battle begins. You can only take stuff into battle that you can hold on your character's person.

Debating May Begin!

 

[Harlekin]

THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

The Bride of Nine Spiders, her heart pumps the coldest blood imaginable... and horrors inconceivable to mortal men. Now, I think we can easily conclude that these two characters would have absolutely no knowledge of each other. They haven't met and are essentially from two different dimensions.

The location therefore, is also not going to be much of an asset to either one. At least, not in the technological resources department. I think the Bride has a definite advantage when it comes to applying stealth in this situation. If the fight keeps to the three 'personal floors', which I would reasonably expect, I think the Bride can use the size limitations to her advantage.

As to the fight itself, I don't think this'll be an easy fight for either one, but again, there's a variety of pros on the Bride's side. For one, she's fast, strong, cold as ice and has exceptional fighting skill. Truthfully, Justice has one definite pro over her: distance attacks. However, this is balanced by two things: Justice's inability to use force fields and blasts at the same time and his questionable mental stability. A note concerning those force shields as well: these can require considerably concentration, something he won't get the chance to when fighting the Bride of Nine Spiders.

So the way I see the fight going down is pretty basic. The two combatants meet somewhere along the way. The Bride is ruthless, sets in the attack. She manages to dodge's Justice blasts, but he plays keep away. Eventually, he decides to go on the offensive with his shields. However, I see this ending up a stalemate. He can't keep up the shields for long, and there's not really something he can do.

Of course, the Bride is going to unleash the spiders and besides the fact that I think this will freak Justice out, they have been known to defeat Dog Brother #1, a colleague Immortal Weapon and a veritable horde of HYDRA soldiers. Once they get to Justice, which they will eventually, it's over.

WINNER=THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

 

[Phaedrus45]

Justice (New Universe) vs. Bride Of Nine Spiders: Opening Debate

*Neither character knows about the other, as Justice comes from the New Universe alternate world. (Let it be known, this is New Universe, not New Universal.)

First, a description of powers:

Justice:

*John has the psionic ability to form energy in two distinct types. One hand is apparently "better" than the other at using one form-blasts from the right or "sword" hand, forcefields from the left "shield" hand.

*John's energy blasts are heat and light-based. He can cause blinding flashes, disintegrate objects etc.

*John can form forcefields of varying shapes and sizes. He has considerable control of them, including creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them.

Bride Of Nine Spiders(BONS):

*The Bride of Nine Spiders houses a swarm of spiders inside her own body and can unleash them at will to plague an opponent.


Justice will have one advantage over BONS: He will have an indication of her powers by just seeing her name. He will know she has some use of spiders...he just won't know that they are a part of her and how many she can reproduce in a battle. Still, he will have his guard up; meaning, he will go into battle using his forcefield to shield himself from trouble.

To me, this seems like a pretty one-sided battle. With the forcefield, the spiders will be unable to touch and effect Justice. Also, as he's able to produce energy blasts that are heat and light-based, he can fry the little buggers.

One advantage that BONS might have is a little knowledge of Avengers Mansion; but, that knowledge wouldn't be that extensive. There is no indication of her ability to use any of the stuff within; and, I'd go one further by saying as she's been living in the old, mystic realm of K'un-lun, she doesn't have much knowledge of anything technological. (I'm not sure if she's been living there the entire time or not; but, as this is the only time we've seen her, I think it's safer to say that than the other.)

Finally, as Swarm can be beaten with a knowledge of killing off bees (as we've seen that character defeated in that fashion before), Justice will do research about spiders. Remember, BONS was seen in a tournament-setting with enhanced-powered individuals, like Iron Fist. She did not face those with vastly superior powers. This was mainly a hand-to-hand type combat, and we haven't seen her facing someone of Justice's abilities.

Winner: Justice

 

[Phaedrus45]

Justice vs. BONS Rebuttal:

As to the fight itself, I don't think this'll be an easy fight for either one, but again, there's a variety of pros on the Bride's side. For one, she's fast, strong, cold as ice and has exceptional fighting skill. Truthfully, Justice has one definite pro over her: distance attacks. However, this is balanced by two things: Justice's inability to use force fields and blasts at the same time and his questionable mental stability. A note concerning those force shields as well: these can require considerably concentration, something he won't get the chance to when fighting the Bride of Nine Spiders.

Just to start off with, I want to dispute one statement, that the force shields require considerable concentration. As stated in his bio, "he has considerable control of them," with nothing implying that it's going to be difficult to use them for extended periods of time. Plus, while he may not be able to use his energy blasts at the same time as using the force fields, it doesn't mean he cannot use his force field in conjunction with other force field type abilities, like "creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them." If John is in a tight spot, he can create a full shield, and simply use it to smash her spiders or various other techniques.

So the way I see the fight going down is pretty basic. The two combatants meet somewhere along the way. The Bride is ruthless, sets in the attack. She manages to dodge's Justice blasts, but he plays keep away. Eventually, he decides to go on the offensive with his shields. However, I see this ending up a stalemate. He can't keep up the shields for long, and there's not really something he can do.

Again, the shields aren't just a defensive tool. They can also be used offensively. Plus, he has "considerable control" over them; the, keeping them up does not seem to be a problem for him.

There is no indication that he will wait for her to set up an attack. He doesn't know her; so, it would be foolish to just wait for her to do that. Second, Justice is quite ruthless, and will be on the attack just as much as she is.

Also to point out, Justice has advanced healing powers, as stated in his bio:

*John seems to recover from injury faster than normal. He appeared to restore a severed arm.

Of course, the Bride is going to unleash the spiders and besides the fact that I think this will freak Justice out, they have been known to defeat Dog Brother #1, a colleague Immortal Weapon and a veritable horde of HYDRA soldiers. Once they get to Justice, which they will eventually, it's over.

I doubt this will freak out Justice; he's going into battle knowing, just from BONS name, that she's somehow associated with spiders. In 24 hour prep time, he'll even do research about things that might repulse or kill spiders. (It's something he can carry on his person, too.)

I agree that a HYDRA soldier is easily defeated by BONS. And, while Dog Brother was defeated, I don't think he was anywhere on the level of powers that Justice has. Comparing Justice to HYDRA agents and Dog Brother is like comparing apples to oranges.

WINNER=Justice

 

[Phaedrus45]

Wow, Franklin! Medusa vs. Human Torch!!! Too bad you own both characters, as that's an impressive opening fight. Both have great knowledge of the other.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I agree. I suppose I should weigh in here.



Medusa is a great fighter. Most people underestimate her because of her hair. They think that Medusa's hair is like their own. Not remotely.


Imagine Doc Ock with a thousand more arms and each one was lighter, more agile, and just as strong. Plus they are way more malleable.

Medusa could instantly kill any humanoid with facial orifices. All she needs is the will. And being an Inhuman has taught her to kill when necessary.


However...


This is Johnny Storm she is facing. And despite Crystal's beaus since then, Johnny will always be Medusa's little sister's first love. And possibly her true love. Medusa would find it very hard to use lethal force with Johnny. And that's why she won't win this one.


I don't even have to pull out any of Johnny's tricks yet. All he needs to do is fly out of the Avenger's Mansion. Set it aflame and wait for Medusa to come out. Once she makes her exit it's a shooting gallery. By taking the high road Johnny also avoids any of the water mains that Medusa might try to use against him.


Johnny Storm is victorious.


Any thoughts?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Yeah, I disagree. The Inhumans will know how to take away Johnny's powers (we've seen that done to him on numerous occassions); and things within the mansion will help her out, if need be. Remember, Johnny can't go too far away from Avenger's Mansion...probably just the Mansion's grounds. He wouldn't just burn down the mansion, either. He's a good guy, and won't be ruthless in his pursuit.

For some reason, I think Medusa would take him out. She'd use her cunning against him...something Johnny clearly doesn't have.

 

[wiegeabo]

For some reason, I think Medusa would take him out. She'd use her breasts against him...something Johnny clearly doesn't have.

Fixed.


(I couldn't resist)

 

[Franklin Richards]

Well he knows that this is "Thunderdome" and he prolly wouldn't feel to bad about burning down the "Mansion".

I agree with your analysis of Medusa's cunning. I just think that she's too overpowered in this instance.


And Johnny's not as dumb as you'd think. He's just eccentric.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Double.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Yeah, he knows about the environment...but, two things have to be taken into account: One, he wouldn't risk Medusa being burned alive...after all, he doesn't know where in the mansion she is. If she's in the underground level, she could be killed. Second, there is no guarantee that he can get out of the mansion before she gets ahold of him. Plus, I would bet my bottom dollar that the mansion has an excellent fire protection system built into it. Medusa would also know this, and might activate it, thus not allowing Johnny to use his abilities until he can dry out.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Johnny can control flame within a hair's breadth. He can do a "controlled burn" and snuff her out if he wants. Plus he'd prolly do his best to keep to the court yard.


I also have a few tricks that I'm hesitant to mention because I want to save them for his next round when there is actual competition.


But I agree about how bad Medusa is and believe me this is NOT an easy decision.

 

[Franklin Richards]

This is like my 5th double post today. WTH?


It's not me, I swear.

 

[Vanguard07]

This fight certainly doesnt play to Johnny's strengths. He's up against a good guy so regardless of will to win, he'll be holding back trying not to do permanent harm. With fire based powers thats not easy. He's also fighting in cramped quarters with little to no room to maneuver.

Medusa, while a good guy is also a pretty ruthless oponent. She's overpowered, certainly but she's got all the other factors on her side in this one.
Tough call.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Fat Cobra Vs Anole

While I love Anole, he is by far one of the lesser characters in this tournament. He's awsome at stealth and has been trained to fight in hand-to-hand by the best of the X-Men. He can also lose limbs and they come back stronger, such as with his huge arm.

However, he's really not a fighter. He's a student (or just barely out of being one) and is green behind the ears (yes... that was intentional). He can put up a fight, and in the stealth department I'm sure he can get the drop on Cobra, but he has nothing that can take out Cobra initially, so it really isn't much of a help.

Fat Cobra, however, is alife long professionally trained warrior. He's got the weight and muscle of a sumo but the man is lightning fast. He's quick enough to outmanuever the Iron Fist. In hand to hand combat, which is about all Anole will be able to do against him, having no previous knowledge of Cobra or the Avengers Mansion, Anole is serverely outclassed. So if it comes down to that, he won't last two seconds before he's flat on his back and bloody.

Now... giving Anole the benefit of the doubt and he tries to fight strategically by using his suroundings, being familiar with living in basic mansions like the X-Mansion, he'd basically slink around in the shadows, clinging to walls, and utilize the mansion. However, there really isn't much that can be used here to really take out Fat Cobra. He can't use the tech, he can't use any weapons or anything, he can really just do things like break items over Cobra's head. The problem with this is, Cobra is freakin' tough and can take that kind of thing, and once Anole gives up his location, Cobra's got him.

If it's close, he can just kick the crap out of him, if it's at a distance Fat Cobra can also throw lightning bolts or use them as lassos and such things getting Anole close. Now there's a chance that some lightning and well placed kicks might rip off some of Anole's anatomy and make him stronger, but he'll be taken out before he gets torn up enough to really stand with Fat Cobra.


I like Anole, but he's just out of his league here.

Winner - Fat Cobra

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN) VS. BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

To me, this seems like a pretty one-sided battle. With the forcefield, the spiders will be unable to touch and effect Justice. Also, as he's able to produce energy blasts that are heat and light-based, he can fry the little buggers.

This is assuming that the Bride would unleash the spiders immediately. Thing is, she's also a fighter and she's going to be faster than Justice. She's more likely to wear him out (more on that later) and then go in for the final blow, unleashing a torrent of mystical spiders upon him.

Finally, as Swarm can be beaten with a knowledge of killing off bees (as we've seen that character defeated in that fashion before), Justice will do research about spiders. Remember, BONS was seen in a tournament-setting with enhanced-powered individuals, like Iron Fist. She did not face those with vastly superior powers. This was mainly a hand-to-hand type combat, and we haven't seen her facing someone of Justice's abilities.

Except Justice's abilities really aren't that impressive and that the contestants in the Heavenly Tournament seemed to be more than just 'enhanced'. I'm not saying they're greatly above street level, but they are above your average low-level superhero.

Just to start off with, I want to dispute one statement, that the force shields require considerable concentration. As stated in his bio, "he has considerable control of them," with nothing implying that it's going to be difficult to use them for extended periods of time. Plus, while he may not be able to use his energy blasts at the same time as using the force fields, it doesn't mean he cannot use his force field in conjunction with other force field type abilities, like "creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them." If John is in a tight spot, he can create a full shield, and simply use it to smash her spiders or various other techniques.

I'm going off of Marvunapp, a vastly superior site for information on characters like this and I tend to believe them over the more generic wikipediaesque sites. From there, I'll quote: "It requires great energy and concentration to use these shields, and it is thus difficult for him to maintain them for an extended amount of time, or to use them over a large area."

Again, the shields aren't just a defensive tool. They can also be used offensively. Plus, he has "considerable control" over them; the, keeping them up does not seem to be a problem for him.

See previous argument.

There is no indication that he will wait for her to set up an attack. He doesn't know her; so, it would be foolish to just wait for her to do that. Second, Justice is quite ruthless, and will be on the attack just as much as she is.

He's still going to need to find her and he's still going to have to be able to attack her as well. These Immortal Weapons aren't slouches.

Also to point out, Justice has advanced healing powers, as stated in his bio:
*John seems to recover from injury faster than normal. He appeared to restore a severed arm.

From Marvunapp again, and I'd like to point out that this is a much better sourced site: "Justice once demonstrated the ability to grow back a severed hand, but this, too, may have been a manifestation of Darquill's dream world."

The fact that the bio even states 'appeared' says enough. It's obviously not an ability that has been shown much and should therefore be discounted.

I doubt this will freak out Justice; he's going into battle knowing, just from BONS name, that she's somehow associated with spiders. In 24 hour prep time, he'll even do research about things that might repulse or kill spiders. (It's something he can carry on his person, too.)

I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one. To me, this is like taking anti-spider equipment to a Spider-Man fight. Also, does Justice even have any resources where he might acquire A) this knowledge, B) this equipment?

I agree that a HYDRA soldier is easily defeated by BONS. And, while Dog Brother was defeated, I don't think he was anywhere on the level of powers that Justice has. Comparing Justice to HYDRA agents and Dog Brother is like comparing apples to oranges.

While it's true that they are in a different category, I don't think that has anything to do so much with their level of power, but with their specific abilities. Justice's just aren't really that impressive. He can be tired out and defeated and in my eyes, without too much effort.

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN) VS. BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

Haha...I just got out of bed, because I read that I was wrong about one of John's abilities; and, see you had just sent in a rebuttal. As you said, from the Handbook, John does have to have great concentration for his force fields over extended periods.

This is assuming that the Bride would unleash the spiders immediately. Thing is, she's also a fighter and she's going to be faster than Justice. She's more likely to wear him out (more on that later) and then go in for the final blow, unleashing a torrent of mystical spiders upon him.

It won't matter for Justice if she wants to wait to deliver the final blow, unleashing the torrent of mystical spiders. As Justice won't know hardly anything about his opponent...as neither will BONS...he will more than likely go for the quick defeat. As stated in the Handbook, the type of energy his right hand produces can vary from a harmless light to "disintegrating heat beams." With his left hand, he produced the force fields, where he could simply block the breathing of BONS. Both are very powerful methods he can use to defeat her, and neither will be known to BONS.

Except Justice's abilities really aren't that impressive and that the contestants in the Heavenly Tournament seemed to be more than just 'enhanced'. I'm not saying they're greatly above street level, but they are above your average low-level superhero.

This is where I will have to strongly disagree with you. Justice could be ruthless, and his energy projection is off the charts extreme. In the handbook, which is where the site you mentioned took their information, word for word, it shows Energy Projection being a 6 out of 7; which would explain being able to disintegrate his opponent.

I'm going off of Marvunapp, a vastly superior site for information on characters like this and I tend to believe them over the more generic wikipediaesque sites. From there, I'll quote: "It requires great energy and concentration to use these shields, and it is thus difficult for him to maintain them for an extended amount of time, or to use them over a large area."

As stated, I had just read this, and agree with your assessment. Luckily, Justice's energy blasts make up for this; and, his use of force fields won't need a long duration to withstand this battle.

He's still going to need to find her and he's still going to have to be able to attack her as well. These Immortal Weapons aren't slouches.

I will agree they aren't slouches; but, there is also not much know about them, than the few appearances in Iron Fist.

From Marvunapp again, and I'd like to point out that this is a much better sourced site: "Justice once demonstrated the ability to grow back a severed hand, but this, too, may have been a manifestation of Darquill's dream world."

The problem with this quote is that it showed Justice doing the ability once; but, since he didn't do it again, it discredits it. My question is that Justice obviously still has his hand...and, I would guess in the comic it was cut off. It doesn't sound like it was explained as being a "manifestatin of Darquill's dream world" when it happened.

The fact that the bio even states 'appeared' says enough. It's obviously not an ability that has been shown much and should therefore be discounted.

The truth of the matter is that Justice's comic lasted for just 32 issues. I'm sure many things happened just once. To me, it's been shown in the comic to have happened. But, this isn't the strength on which I'm building my argument, and doesn't really matter. I do not see BONS doing anything to Justice that will result in the loss of limbs.

I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one. To me, this is like taking anti-spider equipment to a Spider-Man fight. Also, does Justice even have any resources where he might acquire A) this knowledge, B) this equipment?

Well, Swarm wasn't your run of the mill bee, either. But, I'll point out the argument used above. In my character, something happened once and is to be discredited. Now, we have a character who is known very little about; and, the spiders being one of those things. There is no proof that things and ways to be used against spiders cannot be done in anything we've read. SO, it would be wrong to try and guess the extent of these spider's true abilities, especially if facing disintegrating heat rays.

I'll also point out that Justice has police training. He knows to be prepared when going into a battle, and not to rush into anything. When facing a potential deadly foe who has abilities that may kill you, he'd know to take that threat out before it can do the same to him.

While it's true that they are in a different category, I don't think that has anything to do so much with their level of power, but with their specific abilities. Justice's just aren't really that impressive. He can be tired out and defeated and in my eyes, without too much effort.

The fact of the matter is Justice powers are impressive, especially his vast Energy Powers. In retrospect, very little is known of BONS. She fought one of the warriors in the tournament, and she fought WITH the warriors against a horde of HYDRA agents. Justice can use his disintegrating energy rays, or use his force fields to block her breathing, thus knocking her out. Those same force fields could be used to batter her, if need be. They don't need to be used for extended periods of time.

WINNER = Justice

 

[Franklin Richards]

Mastermind VS Lockdown


Lockdown is a formidable jailer. But that's it. Here he is a normal human completely out of his element. He doesn't have his homebase. He doesn't have his entire arsenal at his fingertips.


Mastermind on the other hand is a master illusionist. With his power he can make Lockdown believe the "Contest" is over. With a wave of Masterminds hand Lockdown is made "Champion" and returned to his home in the Negative Zone. Lockdown returns to his life and the moment he goes to sleep for the first time...




is the moment he loses the battle. Deception wins the day for Mastermind.


Mastermind Wins.

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL ARGUMENT: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

I'm ending the argument, on my side at least, because I think our debate clearly shows that there is some definite speculation required, and I think part of that will have to come with the voter. There's not much known about Justice and even less so about the Bride. I'd rather not have to speculate more than I have already done.

Some final points though:
- I know you've already conceded that Justice is not likely to lose limbs, but I'd like to note that if he really only did it once, it should not be counted as an inherent ability. Considering that instance really is the only reference to a healing factor. As it stands, reading the small summary, it seems losing his hand was part of the hallucination as well.
- When I first read the strategy of knocking the Bride out by blocking her breathing, I immediately thought to myself 'who says she needs to breathe?'. That is also why I'm ending the debate on my end. There's just too much to speculate about. As it stands, I still think the Bride can and should win this.
- She took out HYDRA soldiers on her own as well, we saw this. It's not like she needed the other Weapons' help in taking down any of the army.

WINNER: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

 

[Phaedrus45]

FINAL ARGUMENT: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

I'm ending the argument, on my side at least, because I think our debate clearly shows that there is some definite speculation required, and I think part of that will have to come with the voter. There's not much known about Justice and even less so about the Bride. I'd rather not have to speculate more than I have already done.

Some final points though:
- I know you've already conceded that Justice is not likely to lose limbs, but I'd like to note that if he really only did it once, it should not be counted as an inherent ability. Considering that instance really is the only reference to a healing factor. As it stands, reading the small summary, it seems losing his hand was part of the hallucination as well.
- When I first read the strategy of knocking the Bride out by blocking her breathing, I immediately thought to myself 'who says she needs to breathe?'. That is also why I'm ending the debate on my end. There's just too much to speculate about. As it stands, I still think the Bride can and should win this.
- She took out HYDRA soldiers on her own as well, we saw this. It's not like she needed the other Weapons' help in taking down any of the army.

WINNER: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

I'm good with ending this debate, too. I do own the entire Justice series; so, I might look up the part where he lost his hand, just to get an indication of what really went down. (If I do a rebuttal with this, I'll send you a PM, letting you know I have done another rebuttal.)

I agree, and was thinking last night that anything else said would probably be repeating ourselves. We've both made our points. Again, I'll PM you if I find something new.

Good debate, Harlekin! It's been a lot of fun to get back into this, and learn more about characters we sometimes don't know much about.

 

[Midnight Ice]

Mastermind VS. Lockdown

Lockdown may seem like the underdog here, and he is but that doesn't mean to count him out. He has fought super people before.

He has many X-Men contacts as well as other heroes so he could get info on Mastermind if he didn't know about him already. I also unclear on what type of info his car keeps, he may have a database of people there.

Lockdown's best weapon here is his neuron disrutper. Even if Mastermind puts him in an illusion, Lockdown is smart enough to realize that what he is seeing may not be real. This is why Lockdown would use his neuron disrupter no matter what he saw just to be sure. The disrupter would cause Mastermind to be paralized, thus letting Lockdown win the match. I will also point out that Lockdown has an ultra-frequency screamer that if used would cause Mastermind to drop any illusion he may be using.

Winner: Lockdown

 

[Harlekin]

Good debate, Harlekin! It's been a lot of fun to get back into this, and learn more about characters we sometimes don't know much about.

Definitely. It was good to have my first debate against you and to get back in the game. I'm expecting some big debates between us down the line.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

Just a reminder to all who choose to vote in this tournament. You must read all the debates and rebuttals before voting. Also, you must vote in all four threads for all of the matches for your votes to count.

Good luck to all the participants!