Daredevil Daredevil: FULL SEASON THREE Discussion Thread (Beware, Spoilers Galore!)

There's a way they could have Matt, Karen and Foggy team up in episode 3 and not rob the characters of their journeys and development. Writers could do that. It'd be a better show if we had 10 episodes of them working together than have them only come together in episode 11.

That would have underminded Matt's arc. The season was about Matt picking up the pieces of his broken life and putting them back together. That was his journey. If he teams with Foggy and Karen that early on, there is no struggle. He's already basically pieced his life together. It's essentially a new show.
 
She might die in a future season (if we get one) to really make Kingpin do his worst. I liked the sinister side of her. If she did take on that kind of role I don’t think it would be for too long (not over multiple seasons) and would probably end in her death.
Yeah, her picking up where Wilson left off in the next season would be interesting, considering how Matt has to keep his word and not go after Vanessa in order for Kingpin to keep his word and not go after Foggy/Karen, which basically means Matt'll have quite the dilemma because if he goes after her it ruins that deal, but he can't just let shirt happen with her either.
 
Yeah, her picking up where Wilson left off in the next season would be interesting, considering how Matt has to keep his word and not go after Vanessa in order for Kingpin to keep his word and not go after Foggy/Karen, which basically means Matt'll have quite the dilemma because if he goes after her it ruins that deal, but he can't just let **** happen with her either.
Yeah, could be a very interesting dynamic and difficult situation for Matt if it comes up.
 
That would have underminded Matt's arc. The season was about Matt picking up the pieces of his broken life and putting them back together. That was his journey. If he teams with Foggy and Karen that early on, there is no struggle. He's already basically pieced his life together. It's essentially a new show.

If we had the "post DDS2 and pre-Defenders" Matt, maybe this "early teamup" thing is how the story would progress.
 
On second thought, I think this whole "I wish we had more of Matt, Karen and Foggy teamed up sooner" thing is actually because well, I think season 3 is the true sequel to season 1. And I kinda wish it actually was. You can tell that the writers of season 3 did take their time to meticulously make season 3's events follow up on season 1's. Compared to season 2, which was rushed in order to cash in on season 1's unexpected popularity.

For example,
the whole plot twist in season 3 episode 9 about Agent Hattley being dirty suddenly explains how Fisk's attempted jailbreak from the police convoy in the season 1 finale was made possible: because Hattley had given Fisk's people the necessary information (Hattley was in charge of the details for Fisk's transfer from Rikers to the Presidential Hotel, as we learned in episode 3 from the conversation Ray has with her at the hospital). They're also very consistent about Fisk ruling by fear, since the way he controls people like Hattley is no different from the sorts of threats we've seen him have Wesley deliver to underlings to get them to do his bidding
.

Season 3 was the true sequel to Season 1. It made Season 2 and The Defenders feel more like a filler story. Season 2 lost its footing in the back half due to trying to juggle the Punisher and Elektra storylines and set up a spinoff (with the former storyline) and the crossover show (with the latter), and it made Matt feel like a side character in his own show to some extent. I think that may have hurt season 3 a little bit, as Matt's arc kinda had to "pick up the pieces" of what the writers did to him in The Defenders.

Enough to make me sometimes wish that season 3's storyline had been what we got in Season 2, and we had it where Nelson & Murdock were still together when Fisk gets out, without any of the stupid Hand/Elektra crap that we got instead (not dragging Elektra; Elodie Yung was just victim to bad writing). Though I do realize the writers may have decided to put Fisk on the backburner for season 2 simply so that his return in season 3 would be more powerful (not to mention allow for a more realistic timeframe for Fisk to plan his return to power, since Donovan had said to Fisk at the start of the season 2 episode 9 flashback that the appeal process would take years to proceed, and it's only just coming to its conclusion when we're first introduced to Fisk in this season).
 
@Iceman @hellblazer103

I think Bullseye will kill Vanessa near the start of season 4, if there is one, setting in motion a triple threat war between Daredevil, Kingpin and Bullseye.
 
@Iceman @hellblazer103

I think Bullseye will kill Vanessa near the start of season 4, if there is one, setting in motion a triple threat war between Daredevil, Kingpin and Bullseye.
It's a shame that we have to worry about whether we will get another season, and if so that it could be the last one. Ideally for me we would have a completely new main villain in season 4 with Matt eventually forming a much closer bond with his mum, and then revisit Bullseye, Fisk and Vanessa in season 5. I would like for Vanessa to bore of the regular life and decide that she liked the taste of power she got at Kingpin's side too much, and they start building an unrivalled criminal underworld kingdom at an alarming pace (no need to keep good with a public face this time). I don't want her to die too early, maybe halfway through the season or a bit later. It could be at Bullseye's hands with Fisk suspecting Daredevil. From that point on the shirt would hit the fan like never before.
 
It's a shame that we have to worry about whether we will get another season, and if so that it could be the last one. Ideally for me we would have a completely new main villain in season 4 with Matt eventually forming a much closer bond with his mum, and then revisit Bullseye, Fisk and Vanessa in season 5. I would like for Vanessa to bore of the regular life and decide that she liked the taste of power she got at Kingpin's side too much, and they start building an unrivalled criminal underworld kingdom at an alarming pace (no need to keep good with a public face this time). I don't want her to die too early, maybe halfway through the season or a bit later. It could be at Bullseye's hands with Fisk suspecting Daredevil. From that point on the **** would hit the fan like never before.

Yeah, this show is good for another trilogy I feel but we just don't know what the situation is with Netflix and Marvel given Disney have their own streaming services on the way. Which villain would you use in season 4? Personally I would have Bullseye in the mix even if I left Fisk out of things until season 5, I feel we need to follow on with Dex's story and his full transformation into Bullseye given the way the season ended.

Good season, Kingpin is a legit monster.

Spoons! Long time no see, how ya been? :D
 
I do hope that Daredevil at least gets one more season.
 
Yeah, this show is good for another trilogy I feel but we just don't know what the situation is with Netflix and Marvel given Disney have their own streaming services on the way. Which villain would you use in season 4? Personally I would have Bullseye in the mix even if I left Fisk out of things until season 5, I feel we need to follow on with Dex's story and his full transformation into Bullseye given the way the season ended.
Would be amazing to get another 3 seasons of this. With 2 competing streaming services, they would have to both be idiots for the net result to be no more Daredevil show. That doesn't benefit anyone. Hopefully there is a possible solution, maybe this particular show just doesn't get to be exclusive and appears on both services if Marvel can't get the rights to it for themselves.

I don't want him at the beginning of season 4 but if he comes in later it could be fine. I just want some time for him to recover from the procedure he has gone under and I also want season 4 to feel a bit fresh like the beginning of season 2 did. Maybe if things got crazy enough Frank could come back to help out (any excuse would do for me :cwink:).
 
Would be amazing to get another 3 seasons of this. With 2 competing streaming services, they would have to both be idiots for the net result to be no more Daredevil show. That doesn't benefit anyone. Hopefully there is a possible solution, maybe this particular show just doesn't get to be exclusive and appears on both services if Marvel can't get the rights to it for themselves.

One thing that makes things hard to predict is we don't know how well viewed any of the Netflix shows are as they don't give out numbers, so we don't have an idea on how valuable they are to Feige and the MCU overall.


I don't want him at the beginning of season 4 but if he comes in later it could be fine. I just want some time for him to recover from the procedure he has gone under and I also want season 4 to feel a bit fresh like the beginning of season 2 did. Maybe if things got crazy enough Frank could come back to help out (any excuse would do for me :cwink:).

Well it depends on if we get a time jump in regards, dude could have had a couple of years healing time in the storyline. :D I'd love to see Frank come back in to help Daredevil against an unhinged Kingpin and Bullsyeye, as I could see Bullseye's work as an assassin putting him in Frank's crosshairs. :tP:
 
That would have underminded Matt's arc. The season was about Matt picking up the pieces of his broken life and putting them back together. That was his journey. If he teams with Foggy and Karen that early on, there is no struggle. He's already basically pieced his life together. It's essentially a new show.

I feel like it was getting repetitive to have yet ANOTHER variation of Matt working independently of his friends. Like, by this point, he should've moved past that already and accepted that he’s not invulnerable and that the help of his friends is invaluable to his own successes as a vigilante; that now that Karen and Foggy both know the truth, pushing away his loved ones is not the answer, that keeping them in the dark does not keep them safe, and that he needs them in his life in order to find that balance. He's finally learned that now as of the end of season 3, I just wished that he'd learned that earlier.

I also feel that a little more teamwork would have also made the Nelson Murdock & Page ending feel a little more earned (that it'd be a bit of an ethics violation for Karen to be a partner in the firm when she's not a lawyer, is another can of worms). Other areas where I think it would've helped would pertain to Karen's story. Her experiences are important for Matt's character development. In the comics, Matt is the one who "saves" Karen, whereas through the course of the show we see how she saves herself. While the latter is definitely more palatable to modern audiences, part of me feels that if her journey was a little more intertwined with Matt's, her warnings about how killing Fisk would change Matt for the worse would have a little more weight, at least to me. bad place, I think Karen would relate to Matt's hallucinations of Fisk because they'd remind her of the nightmares she had after killing Wesley.

There are also a few plot points that I think I'd have taken a different approach with if I were writing the season.

One plot point that I feel didn't gel was Fisk's scapegoating Matt in episode 5. I think someone was saying in the episode 5 discussion thread that they felt it was kinda pointless for Fisk to be ruining Matt's life when Matt has no life to ruin and he is already at rock bottom. Like, it makes sense why Fisk might send the FBI after Matt, but honestly, I think there'd be more storytelling potential if Fisk sent the FBI after Foggy, as Foggy had more to lose at that point in time. (Fisk wouldn't quite yet play his card with Foggy's family, for various reasons)

Another is the reveal of Sister Maggie as Matt's mother. Yes, it's from the comics, I know that. But I don't think it added much to the story, except for causing Matt to leave the Church, which didn’t really matter because he came back anyway to save Karen from Dex. Jessica Jones season 2 had used the same twist, but the reveal of the IGH killer as Jessica's mom actually brought major implications to the plot and overall character motives. I don’t think much changed for Matt with this reveal that Sister Maggie was his mom, he was already in a dark place but didn’t get deeper after learning about it and recovered from this dark place for unrelated reasons. Not to mention, I think Matt spending an episode having talks with hallucinations of his father and Fisk just seemed like a time-waster, at least to me.

In fact, that thing about Matt having conversations with imaginary visions just ends up going back to my earlier point about how I feel that they exist to give Matt someone to talk to, the whole reason I would've preferred an earlier teamup between Matt, Karen and Foggy: they were almost never in the same room. Also, for being the main character, Matt didn't have much screentime. The dynamic between the main 3 is perhaps the thing I love most about the show, but we didn't have many scenes with the core group; there was Foggy and Karen, Matt and Karen, or Matt and Foggy, but the three of them together was only the case in maybe 5 or 6 scenes during the last three episodes. I feel if we had more of a teamup, we'd also see some of the other offscreen investigating that some of the characters did during their arcs (like Karen's investigating and fact-finding; I'd like to have seen the scenes breaking down how she determined Fisk was owning the hotel, or just what she went through to find that contact at the FDIC who gave her Felix Manning's name; or for that matter how she located Jasper Evans). Hopefully season 4 will give the trio more scenes together now that they're back to Nelson Murdock & Page.

And it would've been great to see more Matt. Because I saw a chart somewhere that noted that Matt's screentime in seasons 1 and 2 was about 307 minutes per season on average. He only has about 107 minutes of screentime in season 3. His time's been cut two thirds. Nadeem has about the same amount of screentime as Matt. And there's a very small gap in their screentime numbers to those of Fisk (100 minutes), Dex (95 minutes) and Karen (93 minutes). I realize that Erik Oleson's intention was to make everyone a main character, and you shouldn't put too much focus on the main character lest you risk making the show boring (The Punisher season 1 definitely needed the Madani storyline for this very reason, and Luke Cage season 2 did this through all its depth with Mariah and Bushmaster), but I feel it drowned out Matt to some extent. Like the episode where we had Dex's backstory and Matt was offscreen for 46 minutes.

I'd even go so far as to say that I wonder if we really needed to see Dex's fall from grace, given that we were already seeing Nadeem's. Like, maybe it would've been interesting if we only saw bits of Fisk corrupting Dex, like just a shot of him reading the medical files but we don't know why he's reading them. The reveal could've then been all about Ray's reaction rather than the audience's or Dex's (with as much weight as the later reveal of Hattley's duplicity). And I dunno, I do think it would have benefited the show if we had a few more courtroom/confession booth/graveyard speeches. Or maybe even a few more midbosses to flesh out the life of the underworld. There's just Dex and Fisk during this season, really. I think we could've used a few more short-lived but characterful foes, similar to what earlier seasons gave us with Vladimir, Finn Cooley, Stick, and even Nobu (despite the various problems the show eventually had with Nobu during season 2, pacing-wise he was well-placed within season 1, a lengthy one-on-one fight where Matt absolutely had no choice other than to immediately step up his game).
 
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One thing that makes things hard to predict is we don't know how well viewed any of the Netflix shows are as they don't give out numbers, so we don't have an idea on how valuable they are to Feige and the MCU overall.




Well it depends on if we get a time jump in regards, dude could have had a couple of years healing time in the storyline. :D I'd love to see Frank come back in to help Daredevil against an unhinged Kingpin and Bullsyeye, as I could see Bullseye's work as an assassin putting him in Frank's crosshairs. :tP:
True, although I think the might be more valuable to Marvel than they are to Netflix as Netflix covers pretty much everything and a single show that isn't top notch is only a small piece of the pie. When Disney starts streaming they will want as much content as possible, and I also think most subscribers who are signing up with Marvel in mind will be the type who watch all the shows.

I'd prefer we don't kick off season 4 with him just to show that Matt's universe and workload is larger than just waiting for a single villain to turn up and dealing with them each season. The return of Bullseye (even after a time jump) is something I would rather see when things are already challenging on another front. Fisk is different because he engages so many other characters under his control that he can be the villain for a whole season but I think it would be difficult to do 13 compelling episodes with only a Bullseye as antagonist. He works better as a secondary villain to me (especially as his backstory is already dealt with). The interaction between Frank and Matt I absolutely love. I hope there is a storyline at some point that justifies his return.
 
True, although I think the might be more valuable to Marvel than they are to Netflix as Netflix covers pretty much everything and a single show that isn't top notch is only a small piece of the pie. When Disney starts streaming they will want as much content as possible, and I also think most subscribers who are signing up with Marvel in mind will be the type who watch all the shows.

Isn't the Disney streaming service not going to have any R rated content though? I suppose when they fully acquire Fox they'll have Hulu and could put the Netflix shows on there.

I'd prefer we don't kick off season 4 with him just to show that Matt's universe and workload is larger than just waiting for a single villain to turn up and dealing with them each season. The return of Bullseye (even after a time jump) is something I would rather see when things are already challenging on another front. Fisk is different because he engages so many other characters under his control that he can be the villain for a whole season but I think it would be difficult to do 13 compelling episodes with only a Bullseye as antagonist. He works better as a secondary villain to me (especially as his backstory is already dealt with). The interaction between Frank and Matt I absolutely love. I hope there is a storyline at some point that justifies his return.

Oh I agree that Bullseye wouldn't be the single threat, he can work that way in a 6 issue comic arc but not over 13 hours of TV. I'd filter what he's up to into the new storyline, maybe someone like Tombstone could look to take over from Kingpin and have Bullseye as his #1 assassin to help the takeover happen, I'd also like to see Typhoid Mary in season 4 since Iron Fist got canned, maybe Fisk could hire her to take Tombstone out while he's behind bars, that should be enough threat to bring Frank back to aid Matt. :D
 
On second thought, I think this whole "I wish we had more of Matt, Karen and Foggy teamed up sooner" thing is actually because well, I think season 3 is the true sequel to season 1. And I kinda wish it actually was. You can tell that the writers of season 3 did take their time to meticulously make season 3's events follow up on season 1's. Compared to season 2, which was rushed in order to cash in on season 1's unexpected popularity.

I really wish it was the follow up to the first season, as I really hated what they did with Elektra. The handling of Frank Castle was really the only positive about season two for me.
 
Isn't the Disney streaming service not going to have any R rated content though? I suppose when they fully acquire Fox they'll have Hulu and could put the Netflix shows on there.



Oh I agree that Bullseye wouldn't be the single threat, he can work that way in a 6 issue comic arc but not over 13 hours of TV. I'd filter what he's up to into the new storyline, maybe someone like Tombstone could look to take over from Kingpin and have Bullseye as his #1 assassin to help the takeover happen, I'd also like to see Typhoid Mary in season 4 since Iron Fist got canned, maybe Fisk could hire her to take Tombstone out while he's behind bars, that should be enough threat to bring Frank back to aid Matt. :D

Tombstone I am going to guess is tied to the Spider-Man rights. But they could always use someone else, like Leland Owlsley's son who can be the Owl.
 
I really wish it was the follow up to the first season, as I really hated what they did with Elektra. The handling of Frank Castle was really the only positive about season two for me.

My thoughts exactly. I think a lot of my complaints about season 3 would be things that wouldn't even be issues if it had been the direct follow-up to season 1. Like what I was saying when I mentioned that it seemed pointless for Fisk to ruin Matt's life when Matt was already at rock bottom. Then again, there's some story elements in season 3 that would need to be retooled if it were a direct sequel to season 1, like Karen's meeting with Fisk.

Agreed about Elektra, too. I can care a lot more about Nadeem than I can about Elektra, which speaks testament to how well Nadeem was written. Nadeem is written very much like Matt (someone who did bad things with good intentions). His character arc was also clearly planned out meticulously from start to finish, up to and including his death (it had been their plans all along to kill him off; at least one article I've read has said that the writers actually briefly considered sparing him at one point, but Jay Ali insisted on sticking to having Nadeem die). Elektra, on the other hand, development of her as a character was somewhat weak and relied too much on cliched dialogue. She was more of a plot device if anything. That does speak volumes, though, about how Erik’s approach to character POV is a lot better at making you be emotionally invested in everyone, not just Matt, Karen, and Fisk.
 
Tombstone I am going to guess is tied to the Spider-Man rights. But they could always use someone else, like Leland Owlsley's son who can be the Owl.
I was hoping maybe something could be worked out as part of the deal that now has Spidey in the MCU, but Owlsley's son coming into things under the Owl mantle could work, I agree.
 
I was hoping maybe something could be worked out as part of the deal that now has Spidey in the MCU, but Owlsley's son coming into things under the Owl mantle could work, I agree.

If Ryan Coogler couldn't get Kraven for Black Panther, I doubt Tombstone will be in Daredevil, LOL!
 
If Ryan Coogler couldn't get Kraven for Black Panther, I doubt Tombstone will be in Daredevil, LOL!

Well that was before Coogler delivered a billion dollar movie, maybe he can get him now! :D Of course Sony want to do a solo Kraven film......:dry: As for Tombstone, I guess it depends on if Sony have any plans for him, they might be willing to trade for an Avenger appearing in their next two Spidey films.
 
Wrapped DDS3 up over the weekend; hadn't quite binged it like I usually do. Overall I liked it, though I'd have liked it if the FBI agent had stuck around, though I think by episode 10 it was obvious he wasn't going to last.

Whilst I also know this is DD and not Defenders, it would have been nice for a quick cameo by (at least one of) the other characters (JJ, LC, IF) as news would have no doubt got out that there was a second DD roaming around, or that Matt was actually alive; surely Foggy or Karen could have reached out?

I know the first season of Defenders wasn't exactly all that great, but I do hope we get a sequel to that, or at least more crossing characters; Frank in a couple of DD episodes, maybe JJ too. With LC & IF cancelled there's (potential) we're going to get Heroes for Hire, so that's a kinda mini-Defenders; maybe we could get Matt & Jessica in on that for an episode or two?

I do like the team-ups and the different character dynamics. In any case, DDS1 still bests all the MCU Netflix shows as far as I'm concerned. They did well with that; hard to beat it!
 
Probably my favorite season. As soon as the hallway scene starts... the show never lets up. Pretty much loved everything about it. Daredevil has been consistently good, props to everyone involved with this show.
 
A great, sharp, and clever season. the characterizations were so finely developed, from Matt gradually bouncing back to high spirits, Pointdexter's tragic turns, to Fisk's even more determined and calculating demeanor, it all worked out solidly. Strong performance by Joanne Whalley. Episode 10 seemed somewhat unnecessarily long, and I did wish to see Matt don the red suit again at some point, but overall it very much delivered the goods.
 

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