Dark Knight Rises Vs Avengers Endgame VS Spiderman No WAY Home.

[Awest66]

For me it's not necessarily a problem if a film is a bit dumb if it's self-aware enough, but it is a big problem if the film is a bit dumb but it takes itself seriously. The crazier the former thing is the better as well, while the latter becomes worse the more grounded it is.

I'm sorry but I really don't see how Rises is anymore "dumber" than either of the previous two Nolan movies.

 

[henzINNIT]

Rises' plot holes were more obvious and in your face, TDK's got papered over by some amazing performances and enough misdirection that it wasn't very noticeable

I wouldn't say its worse than Love & Thunder by any means, its a much better movie, but they were both some of the most disappointing movie-going experiences I've ever had, due to the strength of the movies that proceeded them. I wouldn't say Nolan phoned it in either, he just didn't have as strong a vision for it imo

That all said, I still don't get how Endgame doesn't have a 100% of the vote here lol

Agreed all round.

I don't see how it's anymore "frequently stupid" than the Dark Knight was honestly. I mean since than, He's gone on to say how the opening to Rises is his favorite sequence that he has ever filmed and how he feels Tom Hardy's Bane is underappreciated.

Doesn't really strike me as someone whose attitude was "Fine, Here's your third Batman movie now leave me alone".

They may share a similar breed of contrivance, but TDK is less frequently stupid and also more compelling.

I wouldn't expect Nolan to go on record slating his own work, nor do I think him finding two positive things to say about the film really proves anything. The opening sequence is pretty cool (though largely pointless) and Tom Hardy's Bane is good fun (though he peters out before the end).

For me it's not necessarily a problem if a film is a bit dumb if it's self-aware enough, but it is a big problem if the film is a bit dumb but it takes itself seriously. The crazier the former thing is the better as well, while the latter becomes worse the more grounded it is.

Rises has a serious humour problem.

The big climax of Rises, where a bunch of ripe, sewer dwelling cops charge unarmed into gun toting mercenaries is laughable. It's perfectly punctuated by Batman confronting Bane with this incredible zinger:

You came back. To die with your city.
No. I came back to stop you.

It's so po-faced I genuinely don't know what the intention was. It feels like a passive-aggressive jab at its own genre. Bane is funny, but I'm not sure that's deliberate. Especially when intentional comic beats are groan-worthy, like Batman's "so that's what that feels like" complete with silly voice.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That wasn't a "gets his groove back" scenario in the beginning of Rises, He basically puts the costume back on and pretends as though he never stopped. It's like the not serious training Rocky does in the beginning of Rocky 3.



There actually is a one-shot comic published in the 90s where Bane does exactly that as an epilogue to the story where he works with Ras Al Ghul and the League. Fancy that.

It very much was him getting his groove back and the story being in a comic doesn't make the film any more or less interesting cause it doesn't change execution of the film. Which was the biggest issue of the film for me. Again, if you liked the movie, good for you. I didn't. Nothing about it landed for me

 

[Awest66]

It very much was him getting his groove back

It really isn't. Again all Bruce does is strap on a kneebrace and basically pretends as though he never stopped being Batman. He's also basically going out with a death wish. He has in no way "gotten his groove back" in the beginning in the first act of Rises in any way.

it doesn't change execution of the film.

I think forcing Bruce to watch as Gotham slowly crumbles apart is a pretty inventive use of the bomb honestly. I didn't think too much about it at all.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It really isn't. Again all Bruce does is strap on a kneebrace and basically pretends as though he never stopped being Batman. He's also basically going out with a death wish. He has in no way "gotten his groove back" in the beginning in the first act of Rises in any way.

Matter of opinion. Functionally, that's how it plays for me. If you don't agree, that is fine.

I think forcing Bruce to watch as Gotham slowly crumbles apart is a pretty inventive use of the bomb honestly. I didn't think too much about it at all.

Nothing about the bomb plot worked for me. At all. It was in no way inventive. It was a plot device to stall the plot until Batman could recover from injuries and then recreate the ending of BB. Which again all comes back to execution issues I have with the film. Nothing about any of this does anything for me.

I get you are a super fan of the movie, and that's fine. If you love the movie, watch it to your hearts content. But I don't think you're gonna offer any argument thay changes my mind. For me, the film is a giant mess

 

[Awest66]

They may share a similar breed of contrivance, but TDK is less frequently stupid and also more compelling.

Again I don't see what's so "stupid" about TDKR in relation to the other two movies that proceeded it and I found Bruce's storyline to be incredibly compelling.

nor do I think him finding two positive things to say about the film really proves anything.

It still doesn't paint a picture of a man who did that movie out of obligation or because he was held over a barrel. He wasn't even signed on to do a third movie either unlike Bale and his co-stars. If he well and truly wanted out, There was literally nothing stopping him.

Especially when intentional comic beats are groan-worthy, like Batman's "so that's what that feels like" complete with silly voice.

How is that any more "groan worthy" than Bruce talking to Lucius about the Sonar Machine in his Batman voice in the Dark Knight?

 

[Awest66]

For me, the film is a giant mess

I guess I can't argue with that but for the life of me, I don't see how it's anymore of a "giant mess" than either Endgame or No Way Home nor do I see how it's anymore of a "rehash" than Age of Ultron was. If any of those movies were held to the same level of eye-rolling scrutiny, They'd crumble.

 

[Dede]

I guess I can't argue with that but for the life of me, I don't see how it's anymore of a "giant mess" than either Endgame or No Way Home nor do I see how it's anymore of a "rehash" than Age of Ultron was. If any of those movies were held to the same level of eye-rolling scrutiny, They'd crumble.

It’s not anymore. All giant blockbusters like you say fall apart honestly

 

[Gothamsknight]

I forgot to rank them

The Dark Knight Rises
Spider-Man No Way Home
Avengers Endgame


NWH is currently my second favorite MCU film.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I'm sorry but I really don't see how Rises is anymore "dumber" than either of the previous two Nolan movies.

I think it is, but I've also always criticized TDK for being so serious and grounded in combination with the Joker's nonsensical plans. It's clearly better overall though. Begins has the best tone out of the three to contain such things, but it's been such a long time since I saw it so I may have forgotten some aspects regarding this.

 

[henzINNIT]

Damn my stubborness and how it makes me relitigate a decade old movie.

Again I don't see what's so "stupid" about TDKR in relation to the other two movies that proceeded it and I found Bruce's storyline to be incredibly compelling.

I don't see why you think pointing to similarly questionable moments in better movies is a good defence. As with before: Same DNA? Yes, totally. But less pronounced in the others and in a better constructed movie.

It still doesn't paint a picture of a man who did that movie out of obligation or because he was held over a barrel. He wasn't even signed on to do a third movie either unlike Bale and his co-stars. If he well and truly wanted out, There was literally nothing stopping him.

Not doing TDKR would have threatened a good relationship with the studio that was giving Nolan huge resources for his own projects between franchise entries. Not doing TDKR would have led to a 3rd movie in Nolan's series directed by someone else. He could have walked. There was plenty stopping him.

Ultimately there is no saying what is in someone's heart. Perhaps it's unfair to look at something someone has made and make judgements about their investment in it. That said, it is complimentary in a way. People would rather assume Nolan wasn't quite into it, over believing he simply made something weak.

How is that any more "groan worthy" than Bruce talking to Lucius about the Sonar Machine in his Batman voice in the Dark Knight?

Same DNA? Yes, totally. But less pronounced and in a better constructed movie. It's also not the point I was making. The voice is a meme but it's not main problem; it's the comedic line that fell flat. Regarding your comparison, yes Batman using the voice to talk to Lucius is less silly than using the voice to think out loud to absolutely no-one.

 

[Awest66]

But less pronounced in the others and in a better constructed movie.

"I find this answer vague and unsatisfying"

Not doing TDKR would have led to a 3rd movie in Nolan's series directed by someone else.

Would you have preferred that because you're very much giving off the impression that you would have.

it's the comedic line that fell flat.

Never really took that to be "laugh out loud" moment. To draw specific attention to it feels really nitpicky.

Not doing TDKR would have threatened a good relationship with the studio that was giving Nolan huge resources for his own projects between franchise entries

So WB would have threatened to never fund any of Nolans other projects ever again unless he came back to make a third Batman movie? I find that very hard to believe considering A) It was never a sure thing that he'd come back for either of the sequels after Begins because he was never contracted too and B) he's cut ties with WB entirely and move on to a different studio now.

 

[henzINNIT]

"I find this answer vague and unsatisfying"

You're not going to find any answer satisfying when we disagree. I notice I'm being too vague when talking about the overall film, but also too specific when talking about isolated moments.

Would you have preferred that because you're very much giving off the impression that you would have.

First choice would have been a better movie from Nolan. A better script. There's elements in Rises that work. I have no issue with the story at large, it's just ropey in the telling of it.

Never really took that to be "laugh out loud" moment. To draw specific attention to it feels really nitpicky.

It was clearly a line inserted for humour. It was just not a very good line. Just one of several things I listed when talking about TDKR having a humour problem.

So WB would have threatened to never fund any of Nolans other projects ever again unless he came back to make a third Batman movie? I find that very hard to believe considering A) It was never a sure thing that he'd come back for either of the sequels after Begins because he was never contracted too and B) he's cut ties with WB entirely and move on to a different studio now.

The WB wouldn't have resorted to threats, but would have absolutely pushed for a follow up to The Dark Knight. It's not about forcing him to do it. Nolan himself will have certainly wanted to maintain box-office clout to fund his non-ip releases. The budgets he wanted at that time were much, much larger than his non-Batman films before. This can't be the first time you've seen someone suggest he was making 'one for himself, one for the studio'. It's just good business on his end.

The WB he left was a very different place. Nolan had a relationship with a studio who would give him what he wanted and walked away from it when they did things he didn't like. It's not like WB ever had him over a barrell, but they no doubt negotiated plenty of mutually beneficial deals.

 

[Awest66]

First choice would have been a better movie from Nolan. A better script

Its funny because whenever I see people make what they consider to be "improvements" to the Rises, They're not actually improvements in any way. They're quite the opposite.

It was just not a very good line.

It's from a critically acclaimed graphic novel (Kingdom Come).

but would have absolutely pushed for a follow up to The Dark Knight. It's not about forcing him to do it.

But I just don't see Nolan as to kind of person to make something if he isn't invested in it. If he had said No (which was in his power as he was not signed on to do so), It would considerably less trouble for WB to find someone else than to waste time trying to convincing him. So No, I really don't buy it.

 

[BatLobster]

I enjoyed all three, but Rises is easily the best movie of them IMHO. It's the only one that actually feels like a proper movie and not something that is wall to wall green screen and plastered with a lot of subpar CGI and the mindnumbing effect that comes with all of that for me. I mean, even Doc Ock in No Way Home feels like visually a step down from Spider-Man 2, a movie that is 20 years old. That's a huge bummer for me. I just think Rises has the best performances/best score/best cinematography (all things I value a lot in superhero cinema), most real world thematic relevance, and it actually IS an ending where as Endgame and No Way Home are just the end of a phase. I think all of them have some great emotional stakes, but just speaking objectively from a filmmaking standpoint, I don't think either of them are really able to play in the league that Rises is in terms of delivering a classical superhero movie with cinematic weight. As far as flaws and plot contrivances go....we could sit here all day going through examples in all 3 films, so I think it's a moot point and not where I'd look when trying to evaluate the films against each other.

No Way Home and Endgame both succeed in the sense that on paper, they're movies that shouldn't even work at all, and they end up being very entertaining rides that pull off a crazy juggling act. I enjoyed watching them in the theater and like them despite my misgivings with the overall MCU style of filmmaking.

It's perfectly punctuated by Batman confronting Bane with this incredible zinger:

You came back. To die with your city.
No. I came back to stop you.

It's so po-faced I genuinely don't know what the intention was. It feels like a passive-aggressive jab at its own genre. Bane is funny, but I'm not sure that's deliberate. Especially when intentional comic beats are groan-worthy, like Batman's "so that's what that feels like" complete with silly voice.

"I came back to stop you" is corny, but nothing about it feels like something Batman wouldn't say in that situation. It's direct, to the point, earnest. That's Batman. If anything you could probably read it as Batman trying to get under Bane's skin before they throw fists. As if he's giving a nonchalant response to show he's unbothered by the enormity of what Bane has done and is just back to business as usual. I get that it feels a bit clunky and cliche in the movie, but I still think it's perfectly in character for Batman. I always felt like the simple directness of th line is there to convey that Batman is in control now, poised and ready, with a plan and a clear goal this time.

Hardy has said his Bane voice has a bit of camp to it. And Nolan has talked about how he and his crew still do the voice on his sets and have fun with it. I don't think it was lost on either of them that the character has a strangely humorous quality to it, but I think juxtaposing that with some of the terrifying things he does made for a unique and memorable combination. Not to mention, the character is meant to represent the threat of fascist demagoguery, and many of the recent real world examples we've seen these people can very much be ridiculous cartoon characters who are easy to mock, but with an odd sort of charisma to them. At least Bane still sounded a lot more intelligent than some of the recent examples. It's easy to see why he'd be a cult of personality with loyalists willing to die on the spot for him.

 

[Gothamsknight]

@BatLobster always ends up explaining how I feel better than I can myself haha. Thank you!

I think people sometimes forget that Batman was the purest definition of heroic in nolan films. I feel like when discussing those movies, and in particular TDKR, people always brought up the grounded aspect of it, but at it's core it's still a comic book movie with a guy dressing up like a Bat. The corny lines fit in the same way they do in the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy. It's wonderfully entertaining and earnest. A little bit of camp dialogue, if done right, is a great way of embracing who these characters are. The Dark Knight Rises is just a step above the others, if you ask me. Not saying the movie is flawless, but I love it dearly and will never get bored rewatching it. Still ahead of most cbm of today, and still my 3rd favorite Batman film behind TDK and BB.

That being said, in regards to the others, I've made it clear that I still loved No Way Home and Endgame. I think any of the visual critiques i have for No Way Home, and trust me I have quite a few, are put aside because the movie as a whole is a wonderful celebration of Spider-Man both past and present, and it used fan service well enough to not only fix some of my issues with Hollands Spider-Man, but elevate him and tell a very emotional story overall. The 2nd half of that movie had me grinning from ear to ear, and I don't think many other MCU films are as entertaining as that one. The Raimi trilogy meant a lot to me as a kid and teen, and I don't think I can ever overstate the impact those films had on my love of film and comics, so to see Tobey and everybody else return and be handled pretty much as good as I could have hoped made me one happy Spider-Man fan. The past year for me has been borderline awful with my life changing constantly, so this movie is an easy comfort rewatch.

Endgame is a great movie too, but I do find myself always wanting to get to that final hour whenever I rewatch it. Not necessarily a bad thing, and the movie as a whole still works, but I'd probably take The Avengers and Infinity War over Endgame.

 

[BatLobster]

I also just want to add that I know playing the "too much CGI, this isn't cinema" card might seem a bit snobby sort of "Scorsese take", but it's coming from a place of wanting the bar to be higher for these kinds of movies. When you see what Cameron is doing with Avatar, it reminds you that-- OK, you can do a VFX-heavy movie but still have it be ground-breaking, visually striking and cinematic. MCU is the biggest film franchise in the world, so I think it's totally fair to hold them accountable for taking shortcuts and favoring quantity over quality and falling short in this important area. It's obviously been a wildly successful formula for them but it does come at a cost.

That said, when Molina's Ock asked Tobey's Peter how he was doing, I still smiled like a kid and felt warm feelings in my heart.

 

[BoredGuy]

Outside of one or two dodgy shots in Endgame, I still think its a beautiful film and every bit as awe-inducing as anything Nolan or James Cameron has produced

(For some reason, it's putting actor's heads on CGI bodies that Marvel cannot pull off... but what movie has?)

I agree, Gothamsknight, that Infinity War is a tighter film, but that just goes to show how amazing both those movies were, that the lesser of the two still stands head and shoulders above TDKR and No Way Home imo

 

[henzINNIT]

"I came back to stop you" is corny, but nothing about it feels like something Batman wouldn't say in that situation. It's direct, to the point, earnest. That's Batman. If anything you could probably read it as Batman trying to get under Bane's skin before they throw fists. As if he's giving a nonchalant response to show he's unbothered by the enormity of what Bane has done and is just back to business as usual. I get that it feels a bit clunky and cliche in the movie, but I still think it's perfectly in character for Batman. I always felt like the simple directness of th line is there to convey that Batman is in control now, poised and ready, with a plan and a clear goal this time.

Fair point. I still think it's a striking level of clunk personally. The way Bane sets him up, I could almost swear he was going to reply: "No. I'm here to save it." So much so, I could believe that perhaps this was the line for a time before Avengers came along and had Nick Fury say somethiing very similar first.

Hardy has said his Bane voice has a bit of camp to it. And Nolan has talked about how he and his crew still do the voice on his sets and have fun with it. I don't think it was lost on either of them that the character has a strangely humorous quality to it, but I think juxtaposing that with some of the terrifying things he does made for a unique and memorable combination. Not to mention, the character is meant to represent the threat of fascist demagoguery, and many of the recent real world examples we've seen these people can very much be ridiculous cartoon characters who are easy to mock, but with an odd sort of charisma to them. At least Bane still sounded a lot more intelligent than some of the recent examples. It's easy to see why he'd be a cult of personality with loyalists willing to die on the spot for him.

Bane is possibly my favourite part of the film in all honesty. The weird mix of voice and physicality is certainly memorable. I have issues with how he's used in the story, more and more as it progresses, but generally when he's on screen it's a good time.

 

[Drizzle]

Fair point. I still think it's a striking level of clunk personally. The way Bane sets him up, I could almost swear he was going to reply: "No. I'm here to save it." So much so, I could believe that perhaps this was the line for a time before Avengers came along and had Nick Fury say somethiing very similar first.

That would have been a much better line. "No, I came back to stop you" is a weak comeback but at least he got to throw Bane's "You have my permission to die" line back in his face a few minutes later.

 

[Kyloren151719]

I'm not taking anything away from the other film! But the endgame was the conclusion of eleven consecutive years in the MCU for some iconic characters like Tony Stark!

 

[Erzengel]

Outside of one or two dodgy shots in Endgame, I still think its a beautiful film and every bit as awe-inducing as anything Nolan or James Cameron has produced

(For some reason, it's putting actor's heads on CGI bodies that Marvel cannot pull off... but what movie has?)

I agree, Gothamsknight, that Infinity War is a tighter film, but that just goes to show how amazing both those movies were, that the lesser of the two still stands head and shoulders above TDKR and No Way Home imo

I get the critique of CGI, but neither Endgame or NWH ending fight was between 2 peak form human beings hand to hand. (Let's not get into the semantics about Peter beating down Norman) Endgame and NWH had fliers, aliens, people with mechanized suits, etc. none of that stuff can be done practically.

Anyways, I still vote Endgame. Very few experiences was like opening night for Endgame. Every now and then, I rewatch the Endgame opening day reactions or people watching for the first time and it's like being there the first time. While I think Endgame & NWH have unfair advantages with multiple movie build ups as opposed to TKDR being single trilogy, those cheers were those heavily invested in that movie were something else. And while I know there would be people who would roll their eyes at that, when you're equally invested, it's just an experience.

 

[BoredGuy]

Every now and then, I rewatch the Endgame opening day reactions or people watching for the first time and it's like being there the first time. While I think Endgame & NWH have unfair advantages with multiple movie build ups as opposed to TKDR being single trilogy, those cheers were those heavily invested in that movie were something else. And while I know there would be people who would roll their eyes at that, when you're equally invested, it's just an experience.

I still get chills and a tear in my eye every time I watch the reaction videos of Cap lifting Mjolnir
It was literally the same exact feeling as..idk.. Chris Evans freak-out at the Patriots superbowl comeback... just for us comic geeks

 

[Brother Jack]

The Dark Knight Rises is the best film, full stop.

Endgame is not the best MCU film (Infinity War is better) but it is the greatest victory lap for the most audience-engaging franchise on earth.

No Way Home is very shaky but it pulls off the magic trick of bringing Toby, Andrew, and Tom on screen together, and it's successful because of how the ending refocuses on Holland's Peter and brings him to a common base point. It's an origin story, ultimately.

 

[metaphysician]

I still get chills and a tear in my eye every time I watch the reaction videos of Cap lifting Mjolnir
It was literally the same exact feeling as..idk.. Chris Evans freak-out at the Patriots superbowl comeback... just for us comic geeks

For me, its the Portals scene. In a movie that had both time travel and a literal wishing device, *that* was the "And now you receive a miracle" moment of the movie.